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Nov 27, 2015 14:23:35 GMT
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Looking at the earlier pic a page back of the rotor arm position and the notch on the dizzy it looks like its set up for for firing at about 30 degrees BTDC.I'm not sure what a typical static timing set up is on one of these but that does seem a lot of advance.
I'm just puzzled why the timing is out if indeed it is given the cars history,unless someones been fiddling previously or the dizzy isn't clamped up as i mentioned before.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:09:47 GMT
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Looking at the earlier pic a page back of the rotor arm position and the notch on the dizzy it looks like its set up for for firing at about 30 degrees BTDC.I'm not sure what a typical static timing set up is on one of these but that does seem a lot of advance. I'm just puzzled why the timing is out if indeed it is given the cars history,unless someones been fiddling previously or the dizzy isn't clamped up as i mentioned before. I'm not 100% on the cars history, but I know I'm the second owner, the first being my great uncle. I was told that the car was running before it came off the road, but then just 'forgotten' about. I'd definitely say the dizzy was about 40 degrees off TDC. According to Haynes, timing is set at 9 degrees BTDC at 900-1000 rpm and vacuum hoses disconnected (whatever the last bit means!). This still doesn't explain the other 30%. Still not received the HT leads - won't till at least Monday now. Once I do I will realign dizzy, chuck on the new leads and report back. Cheers once again guys  I really do appreciate it |
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1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS
1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic
1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i
2005 Mazda 3 TS
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Stu
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,913
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Nov 28, 2015 15:57:28 GMT
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Good tip about rotating the the dizzy though. I'm guessing I just make sure the crank and cam pullies are TCD together, then rotate the dizzy to match? Once everything is lined up, should the arm be pointing directly at number 1 HT lead ready to make contact and fire? Yes - that's correct. When the crank and cam pulleys are set to TDC, then the distributor is set correctly (referred to as static or base timing) so the rotor arm points to (or close to depending on correct settings) that notch in the casing by un-clamping it (usually a 10mm bolt / nut) and rotating it. When it's correct, tighten the clamp bolt again, rotate the engine via a spanner on the crank a full rotation, re-align pulley marks and re-check the distributor alignment. The 9 degrees before TDC (BTDC) means that the static timing should have the rotor arm pointing to 9 degrees before that notch when all the pulleys are set to TDC. Difficult to measure with the engine stopped but in reality it'll be a few mm to the right like the pic I posted, and is set by use of a strobe light when the engine is running. The car should crank and start with the timing set close to that by eye so worry about that bit later when you are fine tuning the beast! For reference the timing changes with rpm when the engine is running and will generally advance, so increase the 'before TDC measurement', at higher rpm to run correctly. That's done electronically on modern cars, but older ones like this use a vacuum connection from the distributor which is why Haynes mentions setting the timing with the vacuum disconnected and idle set correctly to around 1000rpm. |
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Last Edit: Nov 28, 2015 16:01:02 GMT by Stu
'89 BMW E30 325i Sport, '04 MINI Cooper S, '09 Volvo V70 D5
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Nov 28, 2015 16:31:08 GMT
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Good tip about rotating the the dizzy though. I'm guessing I just make sure the crank and cam pullies are TCD together, then rotate the dizzy to match? Once everything is lined up, should the arm be pointing directly at number 1 HT lead ready to make contact and fire? Yes - that's correct. When the crank and cam pulleys are set to TDC, then the distributor is set correctly (referred to as static or base timing) so the rotor arm points to (or close to depending on correct settings) that notch in the casing by un-clamping it (usually a 10mm bolt / nut) and rotating it. When it's correct, tighten the clamp bolt again, rotate the engine via a spanner on the crank a full rotation, re-align pulley marks and re-check the distributor alignment. The 9 degrees before TDC (BTDC) means that the static timing should have the rotor arm pointing to 9 degrees before that notch when all the pulleys are set to TDC. Difficult to measure with the engine stopped but in reality it'll be a few mm to the right like the pic I posted, and is set by use of a strobe light when the engine is running. The car should crank and start with the timing set close to that by eye so worry about that bit later when you are fine tuning the beast! For reference the timing changes with rpm when the engine is running and will generally advance, so increase the 'before TDC measurement', at higher rpm to run correctly. That's done electronically on modern cars, but older ones like this use a vacuum connection from the distributor which is why Haynes mentions setting the timing with the vacuum disconnected and idle set correctly to around 1000rpm. Nice one cheers. I've literally just got back in from picking up the leads (they arrived at work today) and fitting them all, plus fitting new points. I gapped the points, checked each new lead and gapped each plug, now everything is sparking a nice clear blue spark, but she still won't start. Also found a small notch on the cam pulley, which aligns with 'something' that could possibly be the TDC, but there's also a star on the cam pulley bolt which perfectly lines up too, other than this I can see much else. Will take photos tomorrow when it's not hammering it down! (I'm soaked  ) If the above are the right marks, then everything is in alignment except the dizzy. I found the securing clamp and undid it, but that thing isn't moving. Not fully sure which bit is supposed to move, but it's not rotating whatsoever so I can't get it back into alignment to make it fire on time. Is there a knack to this, or is it probably stuck after many years of non-moving? Cheers. I think I'm gonna have to start taking peoples addresses down and sending them Haribo as thanks for all the help  |
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1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS
1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic
1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i
2005 Mazda 3 TS
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Stu
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,913
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Nov 28, 2015 16:45:58 GMT
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Hi, The cam pulley marks will be something similar to these (Mk1 Golf pics found via Google). A dot on the inside edge which aligns to the front top of the cam cover at TDC:  At the same time, the outer face of the pulley will have a mark something like this that points straight up to an arrow mark on a backplate:  As for moving the dizzy, it is probably just stuck in place, perhaps squirt some WD40 at the base of it with the securing clamp removed. It should rotate if you swivel the base of the unit but leave the rotor arm in place. Don't force it though, just gently persuade it to rotate. Post back with any photos etc. and I'm sure people on here can help, most of us having been messing with old cars for a long time, sometimes successfully! |
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'89 BMW E30 325i Sport, '04 MINI Cooper S, '09 Volvo V70 D5
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MK2VR6
Posted a lot
Mk2 Golf GTi 90 Spec
Posts: 3,329
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Nov 28, 2015 16:53:42 GMT
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I'm no mechanic, and I've not trawled through every single reply on here. However, I've got a couple of pointers which I'm hoping haven't been covered so far. If so, my apologies. I've owned old VW's on and off since the early 1990s, so have played around with them to a certain extent.
Is there a spark at the plugs? Have you checked by taking a plug out of the block, sticking the plug lead onto the end of it and holding it close to the engine block (with rubber coated pliers) whilst someone turns the engine over? Spark should be obvious if it's all ok.
Have you poured some fresh fuel (I.e a few large tablespoons - no more) directly into the top of the carb? I can't see there will be any distributor issues if the car was allegedly running when parked up. I'd say it's way more likely that the coil, which sends power to the distributor is duff, or the fuel is that old it has no useful properties any more.
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Nov 28, 2015 17:16:10 GMT
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Yes - that's correct. When the crank and cam pulleys are set to TDC, then the distributor is set correctly (referred to as static or base timing) so the rotor arm points to (or close to depending on correct settings) that notch in the casing by un-clamping it (usually a 10mm bolt / nut) and rotating it. When it's correct, tighten the clamp bolt again, rotate the engine via a spanner on the crank a full rotation, re-align pulley marks and re-check the distributor alignment. The 9 degrees before TDC (BTDC) means that the static timing should have the rotor arm pointing to 9 degrees before that notch when all the pulleys are set to TDC. Difficult to measure with the engine stopped but in reality it'll be a few mm to the right like the pic I posted, and is set by use of a strobe light when the engine is running. The car should crank and start with the timing set close to that by eye so worry about that bit later when you are fine tuning the beast! For reference the timing changes with rpm when the engine is running and will generally advance, so increase the 'before TDC measurement', at higher rpm to run correctly. That's done electronically on modern cars, but older ones like this use a vacuum connection from the distributor which is why Haynes mentions setting the timing with the vacuum disconnected and idle set correctly to around 1000rpm. Nice one cheers. I've literally just got back in from picking up the leads (they arrived at work today) and fitting them all, plus fitting new points. I gapped the points, checked each new lead and gapped each plug, now everything is sparking a nice clear blue spark, but she still won't start. Also found a small notch on the cam pulley, which aligns with 'something' that could possibly be the TDC, but there's also a star on the cam pulley bolt which perfectly lines up too, other than this I can see much else. Will take photos tomorrow when it's not hammering it down! (I'm soaked ) If the above are the right marks, then everything is in alignment except the dizzy. I found the securing clamp and undid it, but that thing isn't moving. Not fully sure which bit is supposed to move, but it's not rotating whatsoever so I can't get it back into alignment to make it fire on time. Is there a knack to this, or is it probably stuck after many years of non-moving? Cheers. I think I'm gonna have to start taking peoples addresses down and sending them Haribo as thanks for all the help Ignoring the timing for a minute which Stu has well covered are you getting fuel through? If you have had a few goes at starting her without any firing the plugs will be wet and smell of petrol,if they are still dry then no fuel is getting where it needs to. If you have fuel and spark then timing is where it's at.It could be that it's set up so far advanced at the moment that it either won't fire or would pink like crazy if it did. Pontefract cakes for me BTW  |
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Nov 28, 2015 17:49:20 GMT
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If you're a reader then you need to immerse yourself in the Haynes manual. If it's an older one then so much the better. They get a lot of flack for being wrong but they served me well in my early days. Reading it over and over and studying the diagrams and pictures will at least help familiarise you with what people are saying in their answers. If your still stuck after Christmas I'll find time to come and give you a day on it for tea, food and anything else free.:-)
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Nov 30, 2015 14:52:24 GMT
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Ignoring the timing for a minute which Stu has well covered are you getting fuel through? If you have had a few goes at starting her without any firing the plugs will be wet and smell of petrol,if they are still dry then no fuel is getting where it needs to. If you have fuel and spark then timing is where it's at.It could be that it's set up so far advanced at the moment that it either won't fire or would pink like crazy if it did. Pontefract cakes for me BTW So I found the alignment marks for the cam pulley - this is perfectly aligned with where the distributor rotor arm meets its alignment mark too. Basically, it looks like my crankshaft is massively out - as can be seen from the above vid - sorry for quality. As for fuel - there is no fuel getting into the carb at all, I think the pump has gone, but that's another problem all together. I've been manually adding very small amounts of clean high octane petrol into the throttle, plus giving it a second squirt of Easy Start. Nothing fires, but the sparks come out stinking of fuel but still sparking, i.e. not soaked beyond use. As for history of the car - it's only my assumption that the car was running before it came off the road, as that's what I've been told. But nobody living now actually knows this for sure. My great uncle wasn't the sort of person to leave a car in the garage that didn't work. So if the crankshaft is about 40 degrees out of alignment with the distributor and camshaft, this will cause it not to fire? Is there any easy way I can realign it? Thanks people! And thanks spartacus, I might have to take you up on that if this keeps on going like it is! I'd pay your petrol too |
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1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS
1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic
1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i
2005 Mazda 3 TS
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Nov 30, 2015 16:20:25 GMT
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What suprises me is your not getting any pops bangs etc, It is probably time to go back to basics.
Firstly has it got any compression? if not it will never run, just some rust on the valve seats can be enough to lose virtually all compression at starter speed.
Secondly check the valve timing (any decent manual should have the timing marks pictured, look in the cam belt change section)
Then check the ignition timing, ideally with a strobe on the crank TDC mark but it seems you also have marks on the dizzy to work to which should be enough to get it started
You have a spark so the high / low tension side is OK.
At this point it should be possible to get a few seconds of running on ezi start etc, then move onto sorting out the carb.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:15:49 GMT
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You had a photo earlier in the thread with the crank pulley lined up to it's marker notch and mentioned the dizzy was not lining up in this position,so the cam pulley marks don't line up either?
I suppose someone could have fitted a new belt sometime and misread the marks,seems unlikely but possible i suppose.
I don't know off the top of my head if these are non interference engines or not,but if not then pistons would have been hitting valves i suspect if it was that far out.
A compression test is a good call,a tester is fairly cheap and will rule out (or in) other possibilities.
Many reasons for no compression but as said stuck valves certainly possible.
Probably not a bad thing that the pumps dead for now,at least your not pulling old fuel and debris out of the tank into the carb.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:37:56 GMT
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You had a photo earlier in the thread with the crank pulley lined up to it's marker notch and mentioned the dizzy was not lining up in this position,so the cam pulley marks don't line up either? I suppose someone could have fitted a new belt sometime and misread the marks,seems unlikely but possible i suppose. I don't know off the top of my head if these are non interference engines or not,but if not then pistons would have been hitting valves i suspect if it was that far out. A compression test is a good call,a tester is fairly cheap and will rule out (or in) other possibilities. Many reasons for no compression but as said stuck valves certainly possible. Probably not a bad thing that the pumps dead for now,at least your not pulling old fuel and debris out of the tank into the carb. No idea on checking compression but will read up on doing this. Hopefully it's easy! As for the timing marks - just to clarify. I've identified 3 timing marks, one on the distributor, one on the cam pulley and one on the crank pulley. As I tried to show in the video, if I get the distributor rotor arm pointing at its timing mark, then the cam pulley also lines up with its timing mark. The crank pulley DOES NOT line up; instead of pointing to the timing mark at 12 o'clock, it can't even be seen, so is at least a 1/4 turn off. Hence, if I line the crank pulley to the 12 o'clock position, both the distributor and cam pulley are moved significantly away from their timing marks. Ergo, this is leading me to think my crankshaft is quite off timing. There are also no pops or bangs or clangs as the engine rotates, just the regular noise of an engine that won't start. *Swears profusely internally* |
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1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS
1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic
1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i
2005 Mazda 3 TS
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Nov 30, 2015 18:49:26 GMT
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Ok thinking about this,it's quite possible that when someones had the crank pulley off to do some work they have not put it back on in the right spot so the marks are off but the thing is actually timed right.
You really need to do the screwdriver down number one plug hole next and then turn over slowly by hand and get the screwdriver to the highest point for TDC.The cam marks and dizzy will hopefully line up correctly and by default the crankshaft is in the right spot.Then you could make new marks with white paint.
Can you feel resistance when you turn it over by hand,i.e compression it gets harder to turn over and then easier again.
You can tell if you have some compression by sticking your thumb over a plug hole (plug out) and you will feel the air push your thumb away.It's not substitute for a compression tester though !
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Nov 30, 2015 18:56:27 GMT
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Ok thinking about this,it's quite possible that when someones had the crank pulley off to do some work they have not put it back on in the right spot so the marks are off but the thing is actually timed right. You really need to do the screwdriver down number one plug hole next and then turn over slowly by hand and get the screwdriver to the highest point for TDC.The cam marks and dizzy will hopefully line up correctly and by default the crankshaft is in the right spot.Then you could make new marks with white paint. Can you feel resistance when you turn it over by hand,i.e compression it gets harder to turn over and then easier again. You can tell if you have some compression by sticking your thumb over a plug hole (plug out) and you will feel the air push your thumb away.It's not substitute for a compression tester though ! Thanks dude. Yeah there is regular resistance when hand cranking. It gets quite difficult to turn maybe every quarter, then super easy, then quite hard again. As for number 1 TDC, my girlfriend put her thumb over the number 1 hole and said there was quite a lot of air squeezing out as I cranked it; the second the air stopped being squeezed out was the second the cam pulley and dizzy lines marked up. From that, I'd assume the piston was right at the point where the most compression was occurring, ready for the spark to ignite the compressed fuel/air mixture and fire the piston back up. I can check to see if where the screwdriver sits on those marks if that helps? |
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1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS
1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic
1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i
2005 Mazda 3 TS
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Nov 30, 2015 19:10:00 GMT
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Yeah do that with the screwdriver to be doubly sure.
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Stu
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,913
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Hi, Still not started? Another good way to check if the crank pulley has been fitted incorrectly, is to check the alignment at the clutch / flywheel end. On most older VWs you'll find a little bung about an inch in diameter on top of the gearbox bell housing, which when removed allows you to peek into the bell housing and see the flywheel. Is it a manual gearbox, isn't it? Later cars tend to have a green plastic bung, yours may not though but there will be a similar setup if you have a dig around at the other end of the engine from where the pulleys are you've been looking at. Something like this:  If you find that hole, remove the bung, set the engine to TDC with a screwdriver down plughole number 1, then you should see a pointer arrow on the bell housing that should line up with a mark (there will be a few, for timing purposes) on the flywheel. Something like this:  Of course, with a car that's been left like this you could find the crank or cam pulley fitted incorrectly, even the flywheel could have been too (none of these things necessarily stop the car running but do mess up the timing marks and make it hard to setup for the next owner!). I'd go back to basics, as above: 1. Screwdriver in plughole number 1, turn engine to TDC - screwdriver at highest lift point 2. Check which pulleys are lined up with timing marks. If they're all fitted correctly, and the timing belt is too, the crank and cam pulleys should line to their correct marks, as should the flywheel through that hole in the bell housing. 3. Check distributor alignment with notch in casing to confirm ignition timing. If anything doesn't line up, post back and we can help suggest what to do next to sort it. Might need to take the cam belt off for instance but I'd leave it for now to be sure. The cam pulley may be fitted wrong or have sheared it's key on the camshaft and be rotating independently for instance. There are a number of potential causes, but all are fixable. Hope that helps, Stu |
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Last Edit: Dec 1, 2015 16:54:34 GMT by Stu
'89 BMW E30 325i Sport, '04 MINI Cooper S, '09 Volvo V70 D5
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Hi, Still not started? Another good way to check if the crank pulley has been fitted incorrectly, is to check the alignment at the clutch / flywheel end. On most older VWs you'll find a little bung about an inch in diameter on top of the gearbox bell housing, which when removed allows you to peek into the bell housing and see the flywheel. Is it a manual gearbox, isn't it? Later cars tend to have a green plastic bung, yours may not though but there will be a similar setup if you have a dig around at the other end of the engine from where the pulleys are you've been looking at. Something like this: If you find that hole, remove the bung, set the engine to TDC with a screwdriver down plughole number 1, then you should see a pointer arrow on the bell housing that should line up with a mark (there will be a few, for timing purposes) on the flywheel. Something like this: Of course, with a car that's been left like this you could find the crank or cam pulley fitted incorrectly, even the flywheel could have been too (none of these things necessarily stop the car running but do mess up the timing marks and make it hard to setup for the next owner!). I'd go back to basics, as above: 1. Screwdriver in plughole number 1, turn engine to TDC - screwdriver at highest lift point 2. Check which pulleys are lined up with timing marks. If they're all fitted correctly, and the timing belt is too, the crank and cam pulleys should line to their correct marks, as should the flywheel through that hole in the bell housing. 3. Check distributor alignment with notch in casing to confirm ignition timing. If anything doesn't line up, post back and we can help suggest what to do next to sort it. Might need to take the cam belt off for instance but I'd leave it for now to be sure. The cam pulley may be fitted wrong or have sheared it's key on the camshaft and be rotating independently for instance. There are a number of potential causes, but all are fixable. Hope that helps, Stu Thanks for the extra info. I did the screwdriver test, proved to be quite interesting. The screwdriver was at its absolute highest point when the crank pulley was sitting smack bang on TDC, so the crankshaft is perfectly aligned. However, both the cam pulley and distributor rotor arm were sitting about 40 degrees from their TDC marks, which means they are both out of whack. Instead of finding a flywheel plus as per the pic above, I actually found a housing mark for the flywheel (I knew there was one about somewhere, just had no idea where). Again, when the crank pulley was at TDC (and screwdriver at its highest point), the flywheel housing was showing a big white mark with 0, so basically smack bang on TDC also. I'm pretty convinced my crankshaft and flywheel are spot on timing. My dizzy and camshaft, however, are well off, so they may well be the culprits for not letting the engine start. |
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1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS
1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic
1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i
2005 Mazda 3 TS
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Hmmm So crankshaft pulley is correct after all. I'm thinking as i type so this may be a bit all over the place.. Either the camshaft pulley is incorrectly fitted/sheared key as mentioned by Stu or someones been here before you,fitted a new belt and made a horlicks of it. I wonder if thats why it got left,you mentioned the belt looked new a while back. I think your'e going to have to pull the belt and take off the rocker/cam cover and see whats happening. I think with the cam cover off and cam marks lining up in correct position valves one and two should be closed if the pulleys on correctly. It's going to need some care as you may end up having to turn the cam round independant of the bottom end to get it right which means working slowly and carefully so as soon as you feel piston to valve contact you move the bottom end a little to make clearance. Concern is that if it's had a new belt fitted and it's a way out then damage might have been done in terms of bent valves etc as soon as someone tried to start it. I can't find a definitive answer on whether these are interference engines or not,some say yes some no... If they are non interference thats great as it's just a case of getting everything lined up properly and refitting the belt. Edit this thread may prove very useful,it's the only thing i can find with pics of cam lobe positions with the correct cam pulley marks lined up,albeit on a MK1 Golf. vwgolfmk1.org.uk/forum/index.php?page=topicview&type=misc&id=how-to_2%2Fguide-setting-your-cam_2 |
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Timing marks are a faff on these engines (though I've not got a b1, I've got 4 vw's with 8valve engines)
Ignore the mark on the outside of the cam sprocket. Use the one on the inside that lines up with the top face of the cylinder head. (That mark on the outside doesn't necessarily line up with the vertical mark on the rear belt cover!)
There's a mark on the auxiliary belt pulley (on the crankshaft) that lines up with a mark on the intermediate shaft. You'll need the bottom cover off to find that, which in turn means you need the pulley off the crankshaft. NOTE THE ORIENTATION before you remove, then refit in the same place after the cover is off. (4 screws, either 6mm hex or 8mm spline ... You do NOT need to touch the big bolt in the middle!)
If you can get hold of a strobe, you should be able to point it at those marks and be 100% sure the timing is correct. (Yes, even cranking it on the starter!)
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Hello! Just a post Christmas update. I was away and too busy to work on the car, but had another crack this morning. A friend lent me a compression test, which has proved to be interesting, and rather disheartening. Fit it on each cylinder and turned the engine over a few times; not a bean of compression whatsoever. The needle didn't even give a hint that the cylinder was being compressed, which doesn't bode well! I pulled the rocker cover off to check what's going on with the valves and timing, although I don't really know what I'm looking at! My explanation to said friend didn't give me hope either, he reckons its fooked although I still have no idea if dodgy timing with the dizzy and cam might have anything to do with no compression. To be honest this is getting far beyond what I think I'm capable of, everything I do proves to have zero effect, and I can't even be sure if I'm doing it all right given my non-existent experience. I'm likely loosing my job at the end of March and the house I'm living in is being sold at the end of Feb which means moving out and couch surfing for my last month of employment. I really can't be couch surfing with 2 cars, one of which I need to trailer everywhere at substantial cost (when money is about to become rather tight!) I think I'm at the end of this discovery and will likely have to pass it on as a project for someone who can do it justice Was probably silly of me to hope to learn this much about cars, even if it is an 'easy one' to fix. Cheers for the help nonetheless guys, I really have appreciated all your posts and opinions on what might be wrong. The timing of it all is just against me Fred |
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Last Edit: Dec 29, 2015 0:22:03 GMT by arsonist
1979 Mk1 Passat Estate 1.6 LS
1996 Mk3.5 Fiesta 1.3 Classic
1997 Mk1 MX5 1.8i
2005 Mazda 3 TS
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I really do appreciate it 
)
