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Jan 17, 2006 11:37:32 GMT
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If you could have the new or the original, anyone with an once of scene would go for the historic leg end, not a cheap tacky "wanna-be" re-make. not if you are the average punter though and want your comforts, accessories and reliability.
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Nathan
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,649
Club RR Member Number: 1
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Jan 17, 2006 11:40:26 GMT
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The old designs sold, I think all they are trying to do is boost sales in a market that is on a steady downward cycle by bringing back what made them the most money. I like these New designs of old cars they are (in my book) getting a dated design and modernising it. Things have to move on and you would moan if they produced a mustang that looked like the 80s version now would'nt you. Also you cant say if that Mustang drive past you down a busy high street you would not look, and most people would be amazed they are just C**k Extensions at the end of the day.
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2006 11:43:12 GMT by Nathan
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том
Posted a lot
"If in doubt, flat out!"
Posts: 2,707
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Jan 17, 2006 11:46:57 GMT
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If you could have the new or the original, anyone with an once of scene would go for the historic leg end, not a cheap tacky "wanna-be" re-make. not if you are the average punter though and want your comforts, accessories and reliability. yeah, but the "average punter", isn't gonna ge buying the new GT40, they're gonna be getting the new focus or mondeo.
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1988 V8 Rangey Bobtail :: 1968 Volvo Amazon 133 Ratrod :: 1977 Land Rover 88 :: 1985 Opel Monza GSE :: 1983 MKII Fiesta
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jan 17, 2006 11:49:23 GMT
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Older cars re-used existing/retro styling too. It's nothing exclusive to modern cars.
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Jan 17, 2006 12:00:07 GMT
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Gotta say again though, if these cars were in a futuristic film, i'd be like woah! Its good to see a new take on em. but it gets boring after that i think Dunno I'd have one, i'd love one obviously, and replace rattly mechanical gremlins with electrical ones. But it wont be us buying em though. As said above respek to renault citroen, peugeot, ford etc for doing modern stuff too.
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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dp
Posted a lot
DP Race Tech
Posts: 1,044
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Jan 17, 2006 12:08:04 GMT
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hotwire in da house: The fact that they are building a sporty car that does 85mpg and 148mph is great in my book
On this I'm 100% behind you, fuel efficient little speeders is something I'm all for, small turbo diesels like the Lupo 3L is something I really like, the Smart Hybrid is cool and this I'm not knocking, just the Retro Concepts with no concern for the ones we all will leave behind us on this globe is not that cool...
DP says: Not picking a fight with no one....
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Jan 17, 2006 12:10:01 GMT
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i blame the PT Cruiser, i've always hated this thing, if you wanna hot rod, have the courage of your convictions and get a proper hot rod, non of this pansy ass curse word! plus its stupidly ugly... it really, really offends me! Riiiight, has it ever occured to you that maybe people don't want to be out working on a car every weekend, repairing rust, curse word and having an unreliable car? Alot of people i know with a cruiser, already own a hot rod. These new old cars are a breath of fresh air in a world of mundane and curse word shaped cars, just see new focus, civic, and other cars of the same ilk. My mum's got a cruiser, i think its an awesome car, it doesnt require constant care and attention like an old car, doesnt drink petrol, is cheap and reliable. It's an aquired taste but i'd rather drive a cruiser anyday than any other modern tat thats being "forced down our throats" just take a second out and see the alternatives. hmmmm..... no thanks id rather have a focus st than a new mustang. nice.
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Jan 17, 2006 12:10:02 GMT
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not if you are the average punter though and want your comforts, accessories and reliability. yeah, but the "average punter", isn't gonna ge buying the new GT40, they're gonna be getting the new focus or mondeo. its just a GT now, it isnt 40 inches high anymore! I obvioulsy wasnt referring to 'exotic' cars, but think of how many people you see in new mini's, beetles etc. They are clearly your average punter who liked the old, and wants the comforts of new. I find it quite amusing that people get quite 'animated' over these new cars when the odds of us ever wanting to buy ANY new car are probably virtually non existant for most of us! ;D
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jan 17, 2006 12:24:49 GMT
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I find it quite amusing that people get quite 'animated' over these new cars when the odds of us ever wanting to buy ANY new car are probably virtually non existant for most of us! ;D I think that's a really good point and I was thinking the same. I'd say there's a no-win situation here.
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Jan 17, 2006 12:25:52 GMT
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Dunno where you get the idea that all the retro designs have been a flop? The PT Cruiser was such a sales succes that the EU lauch was postponed about twice so US dealers could get enough stock, and the RHD version was delayed even further due to LHD demand. So mcuh so that Chevrolet have bothered bringing out a clone.
The new Mustangs have sold well from all I heard, more than 150K units in the first year of production? Now half of all "sports" cars sold in the USA are Mustangs. They have the market stitched.
The MINI has sold far better than the original did - in recent years at least - you see far more of them on the roads for sure. Thats why they ran with like zero depreciation for the first year 18 months. When we were in San Francisco you couldn't move for the damn things either.
OK it maybe lazy design, but for a lot of things wheich have been out of production its a brave step to bring them back with no "cues" to their previous existance. Even the Ford Ka has "cues" from the 105E Anglia... Brave can work though, the new Charger is a 4 door sedannothing like any previous Charger and when we were stateside in the Autumn they had only been out 2 weeks on sale but I saw loads of them out on the roads. Looks like another runaway success, much like the retro-styled Chrysler 300.
But theres been a huge backlash (or bitchlash more like) against cars which don't look like their traditional image. The Challenger is only coming out because of so much hatemail DCX has got because of the Charger. The old school Mopar guys were p*ssed as hell when it was a 4 door, and double p*ssed when it became obvious it was a sales success as well!
The reason the SSR doesn't sell is because it costs about the same as a Corvette and is far slower. Priced about $30K or something they'd sell. Mind you thats another reason Pontiac couldn't sell the GTO in big enough numbers, $7K more expensive than the equivalent Mustang. GM kept saying it wasn't a Mustang rival but the public voted with their feet - right into the Ford dealers...
You may not like them but the public does and the manufacturers will keep building them while they keep selling.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jan 17, 2006 12:28:25 GMT
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Even the Ford Ka has "cues" from the 105E Anglia... Yeah. Like the 1960's engine it appears to be equipped with
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Jan 17, 2006 12:42:44 GMT
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Even the Ford Ka has "cues" from the 105E Anglia... Yeah. Like the 1960's engine it appears to be equipped with My thoughts exactly ;D
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Jan 17, 2006 12:46:54 GMT
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A good friend of mine works as a designer / stylist for BMW Mini in Munich, and he was responsible for the interior (and IIRC, also exterior detail) design of this and its Frankfurt / Tokyo versions (someone else did the exterior). Some parts are very cool and well thoughtout / resolved, but it's the production version which is the real challenge, due to all the regulations.
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2006 12:48:17 GMT by Paul H
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Jan 17, 2006 13:23:28 GMT
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I think this is quite funny ;D Considering most of spend a fair amount of our time and money taking old cars and classic designs and giving them more creature comforts, more power, more performance, better handling, braking etc Why are we bitching when the manufacturers, (who TBH can do a far better job of it albeit having to appeal to the broadest range of customers and comply with all the neccasary regulations) do the same thing ;D If you take the Mini, if it wasnt called a mini, it would still sell well, purely because it is the best car in its class, the Beetle is not as good as the (poor) vehicle it is based on either in terms of practicality or driveability, and does tend to be driven by fashion victims..... like its big sister the TT ;D TBH I would far rather see the vehicles that are coming out now than the Bland non entities we were dished up in the Nineties Cars are getting harder to design, you cant do the shapes you could 20 years ago.... long low bonnets are a big no no now, pedestrian impact regs mean the bonnet line has to be I think 50mm above the highest Engine Hard point, engines are getting bigger all the time due to ever more stringent emmissions regulations and all the curse word we have to design on to them to pass. But they are getting more reliable year on year.... Just be thankfull that at the moment we are still able to take these engines etc which have had the benefit of Many millions of dollars of R&D, strip the curse word of them and use them in our old cars..... because it wont last forever Now at least we can enjoy fast retro motoring without fixing the Bl**dy thing every weekend or so and just concentrate on driving them ;D feel better now ;D
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dp
Posted a lot
DP Race Tech
Posts: 1,044
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Jan 17, 2006 13:26:17 GMT
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alistairk in da house: Dunno where you get the idea that all the retro designs have been a flop?
Worked in car design related biz in LA some years ago and still have some connections over there and sure some of these Retro-Rides have been real hits, specially in Cali but this thing with delaying releases because demand is crazy is a long known hype, just like you always have a line of people outside your night club even if it's not full inside, supply & demand. The Miata was a prime example of that and sales figures are just figures, someone in a marketing class I took said: Liars can figure and figures can lie, here in Sweden I have worked with Smart, MB & Honda cars and Aprilia, Harley, Ducati, Hyousung motorcycles and some do their best to hide the fact although it's verry hard since registartion figures are official and can be followed on "Bilregistrets" web-site and although Sweden might not be the biggest car & bike market in the world cars like the Mini, Beetle and some other cars concidered "qurkie" like the Ford Ka etc are mostly "fleet cars" or rentals, sure there's a bunch of SSR's here but that's not because GM decided to sell it but rather a guy with some biz savvy and a fat wallet who went over to The States and made a monster deal on a bunch and sold them basically at cost here.....
Sure might be a it of a bitchlasher and have opinions on these Retro cars but beeing basically the person they are aimed at I'd rather go with something plain with intresting engineering like the A2, Lupo 3L, Smart but since I need a pick up for work and the way gas prizes are here I have to settle for my old Skoda Pick Up/VW Caddy with a 1.3l eastblock motor converted to run on Etanol, that's life and sometimes life stinks....
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Jan 17, 2006 13:31:36 GMT
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this is the only new/old design i would buy
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2001 HONDA CT110 (NOT RCV)
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Jan 17, 2006 13:39:11 GMT
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this is the only new/old design i would buy Aaaah but will you buy it as a Fiat 500 or as a Ford Ka ;D
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Jan 17, 2006 13:56:27 GMT
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Indeed, its always been part of the game that figures are manipulated by manufacturers (sales, prices, MPG, performance, etc.) but you'd have to do some serious "manipulation" to get to 50% market share if you weren't selling a lot of cars!
Like I said, the SSR is over priced and underperforms. They sell badly. The Mustang is a hot performer and prices start below $20,000 - it sells well. Simple really. I'm sure I read somewhere that the 05 Mustang made 180K units in year one, but I don't have a number to hand to confirm my dodgy memory other than "more than 150K per year" off a site I googled to check earlier. Either way thats a mile more than GM got with the GTO (approx 32,000 sold IIRC) which is a good performing car, but one priced just too high for the market. I also heard a lot of people complain it was bland looking. Bad combination.
Goes the same way with the Beetle, a nasty over priced piece of junk, vs the Mini which works well. No idea how many Beetles they sold but the depreciation is harsh, especiaslly compared with the Mini which hardly loses any money unless you have serious miles on the clock. Mind you the basic Beetle was like £18K when launched and my sister in law bought a new Mini for £11K with some options included.
You can wow a few people with something that looks pretty as a concept car, getting them to part with their money for a production car means you have to price it right. Strikes me that some manufacturers think "hey if we build this, people will buy it, don't worry about the price..." and I can't think of a case where thats been true...
I know nothing about the car market in Sweden but here in the UK people buy cars on image or even snobbery as much as anything else. The early Ford Ka is still worth about 2x to 3x what a Fiesta of the same year is. Technically the Fiesta is the better car, but people want Kas and thats got to be because of how they look because nobody thinks "I can buy a well spec'd Fiesta for £750, but I think I'd rather have somethig slower, rustier and with less space inside for £1500 so I'll buy a Ka". Its about the only example I can think of where people are prepared to pay more money for a worse car.
I think they are still making them as well? Thats got to be 10 years without a facelift!
Retro styling is a fashion, it will pass. We'll complain about whatever they all look like next as well, like we complained when carfs were too boxy, too wedge shaped, too jelly mould shaped, etc.
Oh, and am I the only person who thinks the "new" Mustang looks more like the terrible '74 Mustang II than it does the '64 Mustang? LOL.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jan 17, 2006 13:57:30 GMT
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ford kak - no
fiats rock (little ones anyway)
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2001 HONDA CT110 (NOT RCV)
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Jan 17, 2006 15:31:04 GMT
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ford kak - no fiats rock (little ones anyway) You missed the point They are going to be the same car...... Ford and Fiat have signed a joint venture, the car will be built by Fiat but will be either ford or fiat badged ;D So you cant call one and the same car Kak and Rocking
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