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Jul 15, 2009 17:07:23 GMT
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So just to check, if we undertake a engine conversion what is the correct procedure? I was under the impression that you should have a SVA test.... An engine swap by itself would not mean you had to go for BIVA. If it was couple with modification to the monocoque and upgrading of other components beyond heavy duty original style suspension and upgraded brakes you woull have to refer to :- direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/DG_10014199to see whether you retain enough points . If not then yes, you would need BIVA.
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Jul 15, 2009 17:29:55 GMT
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Yes the bentley will allways be a Q luky old chris Evans Hay running round in a Q Plater
any how
As my previous email has caused such an immense amount of interest I thought I would follow it up to show just how petty this test actually is. The car that I have just had tested is a 1983 bentley mulsanne turbo, I roof chopped it back in 2002 and it got launched to the press in 2003, the car has been on the road 6 years and has covered about 50,000 miles all across europe. The car is mechanically stock in every way. all I specialise in is styling, and also it is worth mentioning here that this car was built with the HM construction and use manual by my side. ( apparently this is over riden now by dvla/vosa policy ? ) The main alteration to this car was a 3" roof chop, the other body mods were fitment of range rover front and rear lamps and a set of 20" wheels. I am pretty expert at chopping cars now as I have been doing this sort of work for 31 years, this car when first launched was invited and exhibited at the shwechingham concours de elegance in germany ( sponcered by bentley) it was complimented on at the time by a Lord gainley stating that it was the most beautiful bentley to have been built since the coach builders of the 50s ! so the car is as far as I am concerned a pretty good contender for top quality design and as the car has been road used for 6 years and has never had to have paint work I would say also for quality workmanship! Anyway the reason the car was pulled was because dvla decided that the cars maybe unsafe because it had been chopped and they insisted that the top seat- belt mountings needed to be inspected for strength being as it had been chopped ? The list is the failure list the car actually failed on, which is just petty and ridiculous and is going to take our hobby/lifestyle off the road for beaurocratic rubbish, it just makes you seeth because it is just pointless. I cannot personally see how this test s going to help anyone in anyway of safety what so ever, look at the failure list and make your own mind up? 1. Fuel pipes on fuel tank insecure (these had never been touched, they were just as they left the bentley factory on 1983). 2. Nearside and offside front door top corner rear edge too sharp.(same radius as the original bentley door top)
3. No anti theft devise fitted
4. Steering wheel too sharp. the exact wording is :- any part of the steering control directed towards the driver which is contactable with a shere of 165mm diameter must have a radius of curvature of at kleast 2.5mm. all parts of the steering wheel must be blunted. ( the spokes were steel just as all aftermarket wheels are with out a centre pad) 5. Chrome trim on steering wheel . The inspector said that in an accident the little chrome insert on the wheel rim might shatter and impregnate the chest? the exact wording is ;- the steering control and column assembly must provide adequate protection to the driver by absorbing energy from a driver/steering wheel impact. this is the case if the steering control has an approval ( evidence may be markings or documents) or is similar to an approved steering control. 6. Correct VIN number must be stamped into the body shell. ( at the time of the test it wasnt confirmed that vosa were going to re chassis number it, which indeed they did ) 7. Optional centre stop lamp insecure. 8. No rear reflectors fitted. the correct number must be fitted 9. Rear reflectors . the correct colour reflectors must be fitted 10. Rear reflectors. Must be positioned to meet position requirements 11. Rear reflectors. Must be positioned to meet angles of visability 12. Rear reflectors. must be correct shape 13. Rear reflectors. must have similar characteristics when compared to an "e" marked reflector 14. Rear reflectors. must face squarely to the rear. 15. near side and Offside Head lamp aims out of adjustment 16. Front foglamps must be operational or removed 17. Reverse lamp must be operational. 18. Reverse lamps. The correct number must be fitted. 19. Reverse lamps. must emit white light. 20. Reverse lamps. Must be positioned to face the rear. 21. Reverse lamps. they must operate by selection of reverse gear, or be fitted with a tell-tale warning devise. 22. Reverse lamps. Where two are fitted they must be fitted symentrically and be a matched pair. 23. Near side and Off side rear seat belts to short. 24. Main beam indicator inoperative 25. Off side washer jet inoperative 26. All Glazing in near side and off side front and rear doors do not display the relevant markings. Door trims will have to be removed to check for relevant markings. 27. Windows on either side of drivers seat too dark. 28. Electrical wires/cables under dash and in boot above and around fuel tank , in engine bay near side front insecure. ( one wire in each area not secured every 30 cm ) 29. Bare end wire in boot nearside above fuel tank. 30. Parking brake insecure reserve travel. 31. Evidence of strength and suitable attachment or rear wheels nearside and off side two hubs. Proof had to be shown during the retest that the rear wheels were attached safely.
This is the items on the failure list as typed out by bryan the second time, the first failure list he missed off point 31. But during the test he verbally gave me the failure list as we went so that I could make an immediate start on repairs , (the list is in my file), I have just compared these notes to find that on the 2nd failure list that was issued to me by bryan also missed off the following items. 1. Side sill air vents too sharp. 2. rear tail pipes too sharp and extending out 15mm too far from the rear of the car 3. side repeater flashers too sharp. 4. Side light tell tale devise not working. 5. Parking brake inefficient. I will ad that these little jobs were done anyway during the work but there was no mention of them on the officail failure list and they were not checked on the retest. This test cost £450 with a £90 retest ( as many as he feels fit). It took two testers 8 hours each ( 16 hours) to complete this test and the retest took another 2 hours to check the above list of 31 points and a further 45 minutes to complete the certificate, and what have they found that is really worthy? nothing that couldnt have been spotted during the normal mot? During the retest bryan actually profile stencilled the edge of the new rear E marked reflectors I had fitted ! I asked what he was doing and he replied making sure the edge is not too sharp cause if they are they will fail again. IS THIS NOT GETTING OUT OF HAND? I have had 9 months of the most intense stress being basically told that the car could never go on the road again under SVA even though the chief executive of DVLA said that that is what I needed to have ( not even understanding his own rules enough to know that modified productions cars are not classed for an SVA test) to having my very professional and festidious work ridiculed by two testers in an 16 hour test that brought a couple of mot failure points and yet missed the track rod end that could have killed me on the way back from the test.
What is this country coming to ? Has no one at vosa/ dvla thought how many people will be made unemployed in this country by the legislation brought in with such a ludicrously stupid set of legislation which will kill off so many business. This must be stopped ! ANDY SAUNDERS
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2009 17:32:47 GMT by caddycol
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Jul 15, 2009 17:47:32 GMT
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Dear god, what a nightmare, sounds like one of those situations, once you get into it, you'll never get out of it.
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1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 Mazda 929 Coupé 1986 Mazda 929 Wagon 1979 Mazda 929 Hardtop 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 1989 Subaru 1800 Wagon 1982 Hyundai Pony 1200TL 2-dr 1985 Hyundai Pony 1200 GL 1986 Maserati 425 Biturbo 1992 Rover 214 SEi 5-dr 2000 Rover 45 V6 Club 1994 Peugeot 205 'Junior' Diesel 1988 Volvo 760 Turbodiesel Saloon 1992 Talbot Express Autosleeper Rambler 2003 Renault Laguna SPEARS OR REAPERS
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Jul 15, 2009 18:04:42 GMT
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Unfortunately I cannot add a picture of my own Model A pick up which passed the test or I would show you what is achievable with planning.If anyone can help please PM me ? I also fully intend to put a traditional style A modified through featuring components which all the 'experts' tell you won't pass which include crossplies , louved hood, traditional split wishbone, traditional lights etc etc. A full bodied car presents far fewer challenges than these. No amount of moaning will change the fact these DVLA laws are here, have been for over 25 years and their willingness to enforce is growing.. ably assisted by poorly thought out postings on forums ( NOT you Col but on other places we visit in our quest to enlighten ) I have attended 3 SVAs and one BIVA and knew what to expect ,it would come as shock to anyone who had no previous experience the level of 'nit picking' which is applied. However if you have had 'Nitty Nora the head explorer' look at it first then there should be few, if any problems. Kit car builders have been using this test for over 10 years, as have many minibus converters / Coachbuilders / Funeral car manufactures , Caravanette manufacturers and even low volume manufacturers such as the late TVR and there is still a thriving industry BECAUSE of the test not in spite of it. There is a world of suppliers out there dedicated to suplpying components to pass BIVA / SVA but much of our desirable items can be modified, with thought, to meet the standards. Bear in mind also that even testers have only recently been trained in BIVA and the fact that 2 were doing the test was possibly to pool knowledge rather than 2 being neccesary ( I only had one tester as did all the others I've attended ) . Some of the time was also spent refering back to Technical support , who ACE deal with on a regular basis ,for clarification of items
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2009 18:09:46 GMT by kapri
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gasserjay
Part of things
Too bad the people who know it all can't do it all
Posts: 296
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Jul 15, 2009 18:19:46 GMT
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Dear god, what a nightmare, sounds like one of those situations, once you get into it, you'll never get out of it. It's easy to get out of Andy could of easily got another Bentley ID from a salvaged car gave it an identity crisis then chanced another inspection, and took it somewhere else to be inspected. The trouble is Andy's tried to do the right thing and assumed there would be some common sense. How many modded cars are now going to get rung to get the plate off and for new id now. It must really get to Andy because this must be one of the mildest cars he's built and there doesn't seem to be much of a future for wild cars in the UK. Nearly all of our famous custom cars fail this rule and cannot be made to go through it, I'm building a full on tubbed gasser to be street legal I can't wait for this sh*T . ;D
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2009 19:47:59 GMT by gasserjay
1970 LTD country squire 1978 VW Westfalia 1988 VW Westfalia 1973 E100 econoline 1973 E200 econoline 1967 VW Sparkafer 1973 VW GT bug 1965 21 window samba 1961 splitscreen double cab 1975 bay single cab 1956 oval baja 1975 Volvo 242 1993 Volvo 945 d24tic 1985 Transit tipper
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Jul 15, 2009 18:25:03 GMT
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Dear god, what a nightmare, sounds like one of those situations, once you get into it, you'll never get out of it. It's easy to get out of Andy could of easily got another Bentley ID from a salvaged car gave it an identity crisis then chanced another inspection, and took it somewhere else to be inspected. The trouble is Andy's tried to do the right thing and assumed there would be some common sense. How many modded cars are now going to get rung to get the plate off and for new id now. It must really get to Andy because this must be one of the mildest cars he's built and there doesn't seem to be much of a future for wild cars in the UK. Nearly all of are famous custom cars fail this rule and cannot be made to go through it, I'm building a full on tubbed gasser to be street legal I can't wait for this sh*T . ;D Which carries £2000 fine and/or 24 months inside maximum should they wish to make an example of someone!!. There is future if you accept the 'new' way of doing it. Your gasser doesn't have to wait for this... it's HERE ...NOW but it could also be made to pass . There's 41 Willys with a big block just gone through SVA in the last knockings before BIVA came into being. Andy encountered a lot of problems with DVLA and how they dealt with the matter , that is not the point here though , much as it was upsetting for him to deal with ..Don't forget , when all this is being talked about is that the Bentley PASSED.
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2009 18:28:26 GMT by kapri
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gasserjay
Part of things
Too bad the people who know it all can't do it all
Posts: 296
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Jul 15, 2009 18:49:21 GMT
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It's alright saying it's passed but it's now on a Q and lost it's plate. Pictures have been taken of the car so if there is any other mods in the future it will need reinspecting. So does a model A that passes an IVA stay looking the same as when it was tested and run on a Q plate.
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1970 LTD country squire 1978 VW Westfalia 1988 VW Westfalia 1973 E100 econoline 1973 E200 econoline 1967 VW Sparkafer 1973 VW GT bug 1965 21 window samba 1961 splitscreen double cab 1975 bay single cab 1956 oval baja 1975 Volvo 242 1993 Volvo 945 d24tic 1985 Transit tipper
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Jul 15, 2009 19:05:47 GMT
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My model A looks exactly the same as when it passed ( and that's NOT like a kit car ) apart from changing headlights and ADDING a bumper NOT because they wouldn't pass but because I didn't have them to hand at the time of the test. Alistair has volunteered to put the pics up which are the moment it came back from SVA but he can't do it until tomorrow. Nope, not on a Q plate but an age related to the date of the donor vehicle (V) but now wearing a non date specific age related plate. You are still allowed to modify the car further without going for another BIVA providing it remains within the DVLA regs for retaining the registration per the points system and that it obviously still complies with C&U regs. Andys received a Q because it has a modified monococque . Many still see this as an smacking of 'kit cars ' ( apologies to any kit cars owners ). The point is that kit cars DON'T receive Qs in general , they have either new regs or donor vehicle related numbers. A Q plate signifies, without shadow of doubt, that the car has undergone some form of inspection be that by DVLA or VOSA. Personally I would be fine with a Q plate ( and one of my cars does have one ). However I purposefully ensured that the pickup wouldn't receive one just to prove the case to all 'Doubting Thomas' If all goes to plan the pick up will be at the Retrorides gathering , as will members of ACE to answer any queries.
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2009 19:11:21 GMT by kapri
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gasserjay
Part of things
Too bad the people who know it all can't do it all
Posts: 296
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Jul 15, 2009 19:45:36 GMT
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So would that mean if Andy's Bentley was channeled over a chassis and rebuilt using the original running gear it would be issued with an 1983 age related plate.
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1970 LTD country squire 1978 VW Westfalia 1988 VW Westfalia 1973 E100 econoline 1973 E200 econoline 1967 VW Sparkafer 1973 VW GT bug 1965 21 window samba 1961 splitscreen double cab 1975 bay single cab 1956 oval baja 1975 Volvo 242 1993 Volvo 945 d24tic 1985 Transit tipper
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Jul 15, 2009 20:11:21 GMT
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If it were chanelled over original running gear it wouldn't even have to go for BIVA ! Providing of course the chassis isn't modified other than body mounts.
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orangecords
Part of things
yawner extraordinaire
Posts: 892
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Jul 15, 2009 20:17:16 GMT
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this is a similar situation that I whent through when a sharp eyed police man noticed that I didnt have motorcycle entitlement on my licence, ( lucky for me he let me ride it home ) I have a folder full off corespondance and the outcome is I have to resit my test they are right and I am wrong untill I prove that I passed my test ( a letter from my instructor isnt enough) I have since given up but I still ride my bike without L plates s0d them I say So you passed your test but didn't send off your license? to be honest, it's a bit different mate if the procedure is there and working well but you didn't follow it? Haven't you got a pass sheet somewhere? You want to be really careful with the whole riding without a valid license thing - you'll be in a world of the brown stuff if you have any kind of accident - no license = no valid insurance = pick up the soap in jail! the dvla are useless. they effectively screwed me of over two grand. I got stopped on a routine check at 11pm one night 100+ miles from home and had my LEGAL car confiscated because....wait for it....i didnt have a licence! [glow=red,2,300]ive been a truck driver/van driver for 16 years! [/glow] £150 to get my car out the next day £300 to get it insured in my girlfriends name £1200 lost wages (not counting overtime) over 3 weeks as I couldnt work £500 solicitors fees to fight the court case against my "driving without a licence,insurance etc" which collapsed £40 to get my licence reinstated £25 phone call to prove to my bosses that my licence was reinstated plus all the public transport etc! guess what-the dvla didnt want to know!!! 6 solicitors said financially it wasnt worth pursuing bye bye dollar! this needs coverage big time as the all powerful dvla don't know their from their top gear,tv,magazines,papers,radio etc might make them look into things
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I then wanted to start cleaning the interior as it stinks of wood (the material not the smell of a boner) best quote ever!
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ezzysi
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,189
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Jul 15, 2009 20:40:16 GMT
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Well, if nothing else has come from this thread at least a few more enthusiasts will have signed up with ace (myself included) It seems daft not too when it takes 2 mins and means we are adding strengh to a collective voice that speaks out for all our interests. After all, what can we really hope achieve as individuals against "the man". I'll be keeping an eye on the ace site from now on. Go on....... www.the-ace.org.uk/subscribe-to-the-ace-newsletter.html
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1991 Mk2 Golf Gti 8v 2005 Passat tdi (daily) 1971 Mk1 Escort 2004 Touran (her's)
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Jul 15, 2009 21:05:01 GMT
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Thanks for signing up, what we all also need is to try to spread the message out further to mates that don't visit here , to petrolheads you meet in daily life and so on. ;D
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Jul 15, 2009 21:18:58 GMT
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I'm pestering the lads over on WWW.Turbosport.co.uk, lots of modded escorts, lots of dodgy number plate goings on in some quarters in the ford scene, always has been and I wasn't innocent of it myself and as a lot of those cars have chassis mods to change rear suspension set ups it wouldnt suprise me if they are one of the next targets. Might be worth ACE popping a head up on that forum and oldskoolford if its not on your list already.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jul 15, 2009 21:22:44 GMT
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If I'm honest I'd say nothng much has come from this tread at all, except the knowledge that the info in the LAST thread didn't go in (with you on that ACE - ps, pm me and I'll put the pic up now) The saunders case is a mess, and a farce, no doubt. I know of lots of cases like this, its red tape in action, as noted. Cherished transfers are a law unt themselves (esp. if it's a valuable number, although they can get remarkably anal even with folk who want to transfer a £250 dvla select plate onto another car that they own, its a PITA) and as mentioned, plate dealers have been putting ringers past them for 30 years so they now tend to make sure they know what they should be looking at (in AS's case, a standard bentley....) and get all arsey if it doesnt look right. I know of a guy once had to vandalize wing paint on a (freshly done) morris 1000 cos it had gone from green to blue and the inspector was adamant that it must be a ringer cos of the wrong colour compared to the logbook. "Look. Its B..... green underneath." SCraaaape..... (only a wing, had some paint left, lol) Plate fetched £1200. All this is incidental, however. The rules still say that, unless you change bodystyle, or wheelplan, vin or chassis number you don't need to tell them. And AK - as long as your '66 minor still LOOKS like a '66 minor it stil IS a '66 minor and the logbook valid. Ask the Beardmores Or the folk at spider engineering, where they take a lotus elan 2+2 and replace everything (engine, gearbox, both axles,all suspension and the chassis) with new their products retain the donor reg and keep historic status BECAUSE dvla say the elan chassis is "linked subframes" and therefore replaceable. Still looks like a '71 elan 2+2? thats what it is then. looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....lets buy it a floating island ;D Modifiers confound them because they can't tell what it is with the observer book of cars (or whatever they are using for info) and have to take you on your word. This makes officials suspicious - so I play the open and honest card, show them lots of nice photos, and chat about the weather / how badly Newcastle are doing instead of shouting and going GRRR. I never have a problem
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in
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orangecords
Part of things
yawner extraordinaire
Posts: 892
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Jul 15, 2009 21:55:14 GMT
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ive signed totalford up ;D
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I then wanted to start cleaning the interior as it stinks of wood (the material not the smell of a boner) best quote ever!
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Jul 15, 2009 22:08:16 GMT
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SOC, you're right , they don't make it well known re the rules that apply and as most fulfil their legal ( and fineable ) requirement to ensure changes section is up to date they feel sure they MUST be legal ? DVLA are as guilty as anyone for creating the scenario we face today but I honestly don't see them rushing to correct it .They should include the requirements in the pamhlet with the log book or .better still, on the logbook itself cos no one ever reads pamphlets ( or instructions ) . They had an amnesty for kit cars to allow them to bring their books up to date without penalty but only published the info within the kit car scene. It is unfortunate that many who may be caught have done it without out any malicious intent merely through lack of knowledge or information ,or purchasing a modified car even, yet no allowance will be made. Nope, we don't agree with but we can only fight one battle at a time and at the moment our aim is to band enthusiats together to deal with the future not the past.
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Jul 15, 2009 22:27:02 GMT
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Thanks to SOC Photos of SVA passed truck exactly as it came back from SVA. Some concessions for goods vehicles but this is C&U compliant including E11 marked rear indicators, F and E marked foglights, E marked side repeaters There is a full series on the background and requirements for the test been running in Custom Car over the past 3 months.
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2009 22:30:47 GMT by kapri
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dubwarrior2
Part of things
"Open up, its the filth"
Posts: 576
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Jul 15, 2009 23:20:30 GMT
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don't want to hijack the thread but it is linked, so what I sth ebest way of rectifying the problem then - I have shipped over a '67 vw camper that needs a major resto so is off the road being restored. The bus has not been registered in the UK and will rerquire it. When finished, I want to upgrade the engine and gearbox to one from a VW Passat for reliability. So what the best route for registering etc. Do I - build the bus in standard form and regsiter it, only to have to cut it up and rebuild it. Or can I build it with the required mods from the start and register it and MOT it? don't want to chuck money at restoring bits that are going to be cut out Thought I'd answered this one once ? Massive apologies, I don't remember your reply (have slept since then) can you remind me which thread you replied in.
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OK, so if I get a Vauxhall Victor and without touching the original monocoque I replace the front suspension (using a custom subframe derived from kit car application), rear axle (retaining original location points etc. but with new/custom trailing arms) the engine and the box... I have an unaltered uni-body, but more or less zero points. TBH at this stage I'm not too fussed about having to go into BIVA with it but I would want to retain the original vehicle ID... Is that a Q-plater or not? Or canit retain its original plate?
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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