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I know Andy Saunders is a massive name in this game.....but how about petitioning famous people or royalty or wealthy or politicians/Lords who are into their modified cars... can a list be generated here and then the names encouraged to have a word on behalf of the cause... its exactly what happened in one of the Scandinavia countries when a politician was going to be prevented from ridin' his Harley Chop due to this type of thing...he made them have a re-think... just a thought, but sorry I can't think of any names....d'oh Lord March? Earl Montagu? Prince Michael of Kent likes his cars, president of the MSA Council...
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1989 Peugeot 205. You know, the one that was parked in a ditch on the campsite at RRG'17... the glass is always full. but the ratio of air to water may vary.
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Prud
Part of things
Posts: 308
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That just sucks the major sweaty donkey's curse word. From what I've seen of England, it's clear to see the health and safety people have taken over and all they want is for all of you to live happy, boring lives that are exactly the same in every detail to everyone around you. So glad I live in a "convict colony" - we have beaches and our government hasn't gone completely nanny-state on us yet.
Even though it is a pain to get some modifications through, the New South Wales system is so much better than that. There are clear cut guidelines for everything, and all inspectors have to be properly qualified.
Some modifications can be "owner certified", which are small changes like wheels or bodykits. Bigger changes like engines can be covered - but only if that model had that particular engine fitted as standard. So upgrading from a 6 to a V8 is fine - as long as it was an option and you fit the upgraded brakes, suspension and steering as well.
But most of the major modifications - and anything to do with safety (like seat belt changes) involve an "Engineers Certificate". They're not easy to get. And they can only be issued after inspection with a uni-trained mechanical engineer who specialized in road transportation. But once you have an engineers cert, no-one can over-rule it. Coppers can't touch those mods, the RTA can't touch them - the car is just as legal as stock.
All you can do is (dare I say it) unionize and harass the pollies. It's exactly what the greenies/environmentals have done and look how they've forced the world to do whatever lame-brianed unthought-out Prius-based idiocy/policy they've dreamed up.
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I've worked with various Home Secretaries since 1989 and , believe me this mess is not accidental.
Suits their purpose. Expect more.
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It's a deliberate mess, to make people give up You credit the public sector with too much organisational ability,.. they can't organise a mess,.. it just happens. If you look at the way Andy got passed around various people and sections of the DVLA I can assure you he moved through a number of peoples 'empires' that they have built for themselves. The NHS is the same, I know because I worked at an NHS department attempting to create efficient process change, saved them £8million a year in the first year, barely scratched the surface before running into peoples empires that they didn't want changing because they liked them just the way they were, even if they ment poorer healthcare for the public. As is said before, we like the awareness raised, but it really is for people like ACE to be representing us, it is what they do. They will have a stand at the Retro Rides Gathering so will be available for questions. In the mean time, gather your facts and write to your MP.
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I work in government. Any suggestion that this is intentional for any reason is laughable. This is a perfect example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. I have been involved with consultation with the head of Policy at the DVLA in the past. Its all one of those things like a horse designed by a committee which turns out to be a donkey. Someone has an idea, but by the time its been mauled by "consultation" and "committee" its unworkable junk.
I keep hearing the conspiracy theorist clap trap about how government wants to stop us having any fun blah blah but thats nonsence. Government wants us to be so busy having fun we don't notice or don't care what crooked stuff they get up to... Upsetting people is bad for getting re-elected.
What we need to do is make sure they are aware we are a goup of people who they don't want to upset. Sadly there are larger interests than us. Mr & Mrs Average probably think its a good thing to pick on modified cars. We are all hooligans and our cars are death traps after all...
Support ACE in what they are doing, write to your MP, join a club which has DVLA representation or ACE membership at least.
Oh, and don't have a cherrished number transfer! most of the horror stories I hear about have come from cherrished number transfers.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Hi all, did you guess I'd be along shortly ? We did this entire thing about 4-6 weeks ago didn't we ? retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=61576&page=1Maybe a bit more background may help, DVLA is self funding , it's not covering it's costs and in many areas is cutting back on staff. There was a consultation document 5 years ago about the inspection procedures which brought ACE into being and we , along with NASC and NSRA had input into it and tried to get a Modified Car class that tested what was altered but nothing else. The existing points system for cars has been in place for over 25 years and basically it's not going to change. Once you are outside that system you lose your right to registration and by LAW the only way to get back on the road is via a Ministers Approval certificate obtained by BIVA. We are alone in Europe in having any system to allow the certification of modified cars !! We ONLY hav ethis because of the efforts of the Street Rod Action Group and Kit Car builders back in 1976 when ALL modifying would have been outlawed by Type Approval regs . The Rod and Kit cars guys worked with DVLA and came up with the current system . The biggest flaw with the entire thing is that the regs regarding car modificatiosn have not been made widely known so most people have been working in ignorance . The laws are there and they are not going to change .What needs to change is US , to learn to work with the legislation. If all goes to plan we'll be at the RetroRides gathering to provide info and answer general questions. I see plenty of moans about 'we must do something' , well who has done anything so far ? ACE is the only organisation ( to my knowledge ) to bother to get involved in FUTURE restrictive legislation working on behalf of ALL car enthusiats to protect the 'status quo'. Sign up, spread the word . The main purpose of ACE is to be able to get this info out quickly, and truthfully ,so that when we need to fight we can.
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ACE were involved, 'Behind the scenes' for some time regarding this particular case. We will be putting together an article for the website and the newsletter very soon. Unfortunately our 'day-jobs' have slowed us down a little. Watch the website Steve The ACE Team www.the-ace.org.uk/
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Kev got there before me...
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I know Andy Saunders is a massive name in this game.....but how about petitioning famous people or royalty or wealthy or politicians/Lords who are into their modified cars... can a list be generated here and then the names encouraged to have a word on behalf of the cause... its exactly what happened in one of the Scandinavia countries when a politician was going to be prevented from ridin' his Harley Chop due to this type of thing...he made them have a re-think... just a thought, but sorry I can't think of any names....d'oh Lord March? Earl Montagu? Prince Michael of Kent likes his cars, president of the MSA Council... We worked with Andy on this even attending the actual BIVA test with him. We explored every avenue that we could .Whilst there are certainly procedural errors on DVLAs behalf the crux of the matter remained that under the existing over 25 year old rules rules it had a modified monococque and it needed to pass BIVA.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,933
Club RR Member Number: 174
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I think the test itself is a good idea. However if it is as much as a shambles as is made out then it seems like a waste of time.
Matt
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I'll side with Hotwire on the whole.. its a deliberate mess thing. I've worked for government depts. too there is so much confusion between departments usually due to 'personal empires' or confusing management structures (being overseen by two different dept's with different rules and regs. for example ) that an organised 'lets mess this person around' is nigh on impossible. That said its obvious that the DVLA havn't really got a cue.. yet at least about enforcing the new IVA rules and regs. its after all a new(ish) legislation and they are trying to deal with a lot of vehicles that previously got overlooked by SVA but shoud have been tested. The new rules and regs are not really any different to SVA and pretty fair in my eyes. If your building modifiying something that will drive on the road with other road users then it should be safe, and therefore inspected. If you or your family were injured by a dangerous vehicle loosing control or similar you'd agree i'm sure. Yes theres a long way to go before the DVLA etc. are all singing from the same song sheet and things are organised properly but I'm sure it will happen. In the meantime join ACE and keep up to date with current legislation, if your building something build it to pass the test.. read the manual as long as your sensible it seems fairly straight forward. Trying to get current legislation reversed will get us no where at all.. its not going to happen.. fact. Getting together with ace etc. will help with future issues, hopefully, we need to voice concerns in a reasoned way on future legislations before they are passed so our side of the arguement can be heard. Shouting about how unfair or worse trying to dodge current legislation will just make matters worse.. IVA is here to stay for now, yes its a lot of red tape, but red tape that wont apply to many unless your doing drastic things. Those that it does apply too should know enough/be skilled enough to build something that wil sail through. Andy Saunders had a harsh run of it, true sounds as if he got caught up in the confusion during test swaps etc. But with what was done to the car it sounds right that it was tested even if the DVLA etc. ran him from pillar to post trying to figure it out. As for the testers.. I was inspected by VOSA recently after getting pulled for no front bumper. My inspectors were knowledgeable and helpful, to be honest they saved me getting additional points/tickets from the plod who pulled me by helping me argue my case. Guess what i'm saying is remember that the original letter was written by someone who got messed around.. and as such is bound to include some of his 'annoyance' and rightly so.. thats not necessarily everyones fate, i'd be interested to hear from others who have or are going to be taking an IVA soon.
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Daily: Spazda Mx5
'A52's Fastest steak eater 2010'
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PhoenixCapri
West Midlands
Posts: 2,685
Club RR Member Number: 91
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Well I read this and can understand everybodies view. But the only sensible thing I can see coming out of this thread is that a) we should all join ACE to show our support and help if we are able, and b) before we go doing any serious mods like chopping bodies about and fitting complete new drivetrains we should be certain of the implications regarding testing and the Law. I'll certainly be heading the ACE stand at RRG09 and if they talk as much sence as I've read from them so far I'll be leanding them my full support. Might be an idea not to try and confuse the issue with talk of how the Goverment is in termoil and is, with nothing but a quick glance, turning the UK into the next Fascist state. There are mini empires everywhere, getting upset about them doesn't help, supporting the right open minded people so they can get enough power to change and improve the system is the only way forward.
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I don't personally think we have a chance, on a whole the modified car scene is somthing thats easily ignored. And to most people confused with the saxos and things doing handbrake turns outside joe publics house. Things with more backing have gone ignored many times, and will continue to be. The governement are bad enough for not listening to reason, as has been prooved with them not taking any of there online petitions into account in any way. We on the other hand would have to deal with the DVLA which are a self funded organisasion , who can easily ignore us until someone says otherwise. Which in this case would have to be someone from an area of government. Put simply , in the eyes of the dvla and government , we are a small fry, they will most likely have the backing of the majority of public if any light was made of the situation, and the government have more pressing issues, with taxing us out of our homes and forcefeeding us the EU
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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As an individual how do I join ACE and show my support?
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2009 9:32:03 GMT by MWF
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We ( at ACE ) can also help provide technical back up and clarify any confusing issues in the BIVA / SVA ( for commercials still ) tests. We have first hand experience and an open door with VOSA where we can discuss issues without specifics.
The bit where many get confuddled is that DVLA and VOSA , whilst under DfT , are two different departments ,with different rules and regs . You need to know which one to talk to about what.
We have spoken with tem thsi morning and there are still no plans for a 'tick if modified' box but there will be a tightening of procedures ensuiring that cars match their reg documents and any obvious alterations will put up a flag.
As we've keep saying over at ACE the DVLA rules are there and have been for ages. Whilst it's true that they haven't been the most visible or transparent if we want to keep our noses clean we need to ensure we continue to build within them to keep our vehicles on existing regs or ,if our project steps outside of those regs , to accept that we have a European wide envied system to enable us to continue. The rest of European Government isn't happy with that and if we abuse or constantly ignore / rubbish it we are in danger of losing it.
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I don't personally think we have a chance, on a whole the modified car scene is somthing thats easily ignored. And to most people confused with the saxos and things doing handbrake turns outside joe publics house. Things with more backing have gone ignored many times, and will continue to be. The governement are bad enough for not listening to reason, as has been prooved with them not taking any of there online petitions into account in any way. We on the other hand would have to deal with the DVLA which are a self funded organisasion , who can easily ignore us until someone says otherwise. Which in this case would have to be someone from an area of government. Put simply , in the eyes of the dvla and government , we are a small fry, they will most likely have the backing of the majority of public if any light was made of the situation, and the government have more pressing issues, with taxing us out of our homes and forcefeeding us the EU We are NOT small fry if we stand together, somewhere in the region of 2 million of us with trade spends in the billions. In turn we need to focus on making the trade aware of our concerns and getting them to lobby on our behalf. They are by far the worst with no lobbying to ensure a future for their businesses,let alone our hobbies. We at ACE are trying to correct that by rasing awareness, something that you all can do. Next time you buy a part from alarge company ask what their viewsa nd policies are about the future of our hobby / their business, that's all it takes to raise awareness and get the ball rolling ...plus don't forget to tell them about ACE
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Jul 15, 2009 10:54:40 GMT
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I don't personally think we have a chance, on a whole the modified car scene is somthing thats easily ignored. And to most people confused with the saxos and things doing handbrake turns outside joe publics house. Things with more backing have gone ignored many times, and will continue to be. The governement are bad enough for not listening to reason, as has been prooved with them not taking any of there online petitions into account in any way. We on the other hand would have to deal with the DVLA which are a self funded organisasion , who can easily ignore us until someone says otherwise. Which in this case would have to be someone from an area of government. Put simply , in the eyes of the dvla and government , we are a small fry, they will most likely have the backing of the majority of public if any light was made of the situation, and the government have more pressing issues, with taxing us out of our homes and forcefeeding us the EU We are NOT small fry if we stand together, somewhere in the region of 2 million of us with trade spends in the billions. In turn we need to focus on making the trade aware of our concerns and getting them to lobby on our behalf. They are by far the worst with no lobbying to ensure a future for their businesses,let alone our hobbies. We at ACE are trying to correct that by rasing awareness, something that you all can do. Next time you buy a part from alarge company ask what their viewsa nd policies are about the future of our hobby / their business, that's all it takes to raise awareness and get the ball rolling ...plus don't forget to tell them about ACE I understand what you are saying , but take into account how the government sudenly go deaf when its somthing they don't want to hear?, Our current government have a tendancy to assume the best for us, with no leeway. I know its off topic but take into account the euro and european union. They wont listen to reason or allow a "real" vote on the outcome of that. Also take into account the graduation its taken to get to this point. They have been working up to this for years, with rule changes. There are countrys in the EU that do not allow modified cars, and obviously theres the greater good aspect (the green movement) where we again become silenced by the likes of greenpeace with there massive oil burning ship telling us we shouldnt burn fossil fuels
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Jul 15, 2009 11:16:20 GMT
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Personally, I think it's unfortunately a case of "there are more lucrative, important things" for the DVLA to be playing about with. I certainly don't think that it's some kind of conspiracy to stop anyone with an aftermarket set of alloys or a car older than 5 years having their fun.
With this in mind, surely what we really need to fight the cause is some publicity. I know Top Gear wouldn't particularly give a toss about it (only IMO of course but it's not really in keeping with their show) but perhaps 5th Gear might respond nicely to having it bought to their attention? They seem more like the Everyman kind of show to me and a running feature on the show would be no bad thing for them?
It's only a thought but we need as much publicity as possible - primarily to get a little public sympathy but more importantly, to get an MP on board, even if it is only a fella in suit who wants to get a little publicity for himself.
If however it is a conspiracy theory, lets get Michael Moore to do a documentary. ;D
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Porsche 924 - gone Citroen Saxo VTR - not very retro but I loved it - now gone... MK4 Golf GTi 1.8T - gone but hardly remembered... Mini Cooper S R53 - gone BMW 125d Coupe - gone (mostly sideways)
Ford Focus RS Mk1 - hello low MPGs and "wanna race me" at every set of lights... 1973 BMW 2002 - Twin 40's, 284 Cam, Revolutions, E21 Recaros + more Porsche Cayman 987 3.4S - here and due to cost me more money than I have
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