logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Aug 22, 2020 19:19:59 GMT
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I like many others on this forum spend a lot of time acquiring as may parts as one deems necessary to get my project if not 100% then as close to it as possible before commencing, I've been pretty close to 95% for about 3 years but, Frank my Acclaim had to be moved from project to stable release before this could move from planning to project, which was fine and not a problem, I have limited space, so have a 3 car policy (one strictly policed by the secretariat) 1 daily (no mods), 1 classic to play in and 1 project. Then I put my back out and realized I needed a bigger workshop one with the headspace for a lift. Read about the garage build here which all put this project on hold. Then my best mate goes and throws a huge spanner in the works, id popped over for a brew, chat and a look at what ever he was working on this week & he says "I'm having a clear out do you want this lot"? Pointing under the work bench at an ex Range Rover classic V8 and gearbox. After another cup of tea a plan was hatched. The gearbox and transfer box was of no use so that went on eBay, but that left me with nothing to connect the engine to the propshaft, LT77 or R380 are way out of my budget and probably not ideal for a variety of reasons, one being my inability to press the clutch pedal when the disks in my back decide to go for a meet up with the local nerves for a bit of a sesh. So slush-O-matic is the way to go, the ZF box looks to be too big. So I put an add-on here for a Borg Warner 35, which found one not too far from hull from an MGC but obviously didn't come with a bell housing or flex plate for an RV8, but it did come with a box of NOS front pumps, brake bands and clutch packs.  20200728_191711 by logicaluk, on Flickr I even managed to find a bell housing and flex plate on eBay before I went to pick it up, but it turns out I'm a hoofing great idiot who didn't know the difference the between a BW35 and BW65 bell housing whoops, back on the hunt. First job was to clean it up, it's a 17EA what ever that means and a dirty one at that.  20200727_182125 by logicaluk, on Flickr Which after a liberal application of stale petrol over a couple of days, turned out like this.  20200729_195304 by logicaluk, on Flickr A couple of weeks does by and I spot an ad on Facebook for a pile of bits that equates to, 2 rover V8s whilst what catches my eye is the gearbox half hidden, under a table. Now the thing is they don't want to split the lot and the price is a bit steep but after chatting for a while I decide its worth going for a look, lovely people but I can't justify the money they are asking, but they are starting to think about splitting the lot up so a week later when I message then we come to an acceptable price and 1 complete BW35 with bell housing, torque converter and flex plate arrive at my workshop with a second gearbox with the sump pan sitting loosely on top a bell housing and some internal gearbox bits. So to add to the 17ea I also have a 303  20200822_155927 by logicaluk, on Flickr and a 387  20200817_202339 by logicaluk, on Flickr which I believe is an earlier gearbox built to the 303 spec the 303 cleaned up nicely  20200822_164044 by logicaluk, on Flickr I had removed the starter interlock switch to clean under it so when I went to move it the gearbox puked all down my leg and on my shoes. Never ever assume it makes an ASS out of U and ME, so I drained the gearbox the fluid was almost black but smelled fine.  20200822_163643 by logicaluk, on Flickr The question is now which box to strip clean and rebuild, the shorter tail shaft of the other 2 rules out the 17EA, the 287 with the loose sump pan has 82 stamped on it so maybe it was rebuilt in 82, what remains of the ATF in it seems a good colour and smells good. |
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Last Edit: Nov 10, 2020 16:57:17 GMT by logicaluk
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,887
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Aug 22, 2020 21:19:17 GMT
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I wish you good luck with the rebuild. Having recently rebuilt my BW35, it really wasn't so bad  If you need parts, I used Graham Whitehouse, www.gwautos.com , and was pleased with the service I got and the info he had. He was certainly able to tell me the differences between the 3EG spec box that was fitted to my car and the 11EG that should be fitted, which is information I couldn't find online anywhere. If you haven't got a manual, there's a good Triumph and Volvo manual floating around online. Hopefully between the various boxes you've got there you can build a good one |
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Last Edit: Aug 22, 2020 21:19:33 GMT by goldnrust
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Aug 22, 2020 21:28:11 GMT
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thanks GNR, ive got the rover p6 manual and printed out a copy of the Borg Warner manual.
I'm just waiting for a full day but that may not be possible to start off.
Dan
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,357
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Aug 23, 2020 20:38:10 GMT
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Ok, I’m in. What’s it going into?
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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teaboy
Posted a lot
Make tea, not war.
Posts: 2,125
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Aug 23, 2020 23:26:52 GMT
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I was wondering the same thing. |
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Ok, I’m in. What’s it going into? Me too and the same question! |
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Last Edit: Aug 24, 2020 1:19:39 GMT by georgeb
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Aug 25, 2020 15:18:36 GMT
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Same same!
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Aug 30, 2020 22:20:04 GMT
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Whoops didn't I say!! Oh! How remiss of me, it's going in a Triumph. I'm trying my hand as shooting video for the YouTube, so not as many pics as usual. I finally managed to get most of a day clear to start on the gearbox, BW manual printed out and a set of brushes delivered from eBay for 4 quid.  IMG_20200827_190857_779 by logicaluk, on Flickr After seeing the state of the ATF the thick paste in the bottom of the pan wasn't much of a surprise. The magnet was attached to this bolt, had an iron filing fur coat  20200830_133409 by logicaluk, on Flickr After gently levering out the pipes I could unbolt the valve body, which was also covered in a thick black paste.  20200830_133859 by logicaluk, on Flickr Everything went through the ultrasonic bath, with nothing more than warm water and washing up liquid. Followed by either a wipe off with a cloth or a rince with brake cleaner. Then I found this lovely fellow, I wounder where you have come from? I guess I will find out eventually.  20200830_135404 by logicaluk, on Flickr The grey black sludge seems to have got everywhere, note the spring, this pic came in very useful later.  20200830_144819 by logicaluk, on Flickr these ultrasonic baths are great  20200830_153449 by logicaluk, on Flickr I guess this is an upgraded separating plate.  20200830_155449 by logicaluk, on Flickr When I started putting the valve body back together everything was going better than expected, till the manual suddenly made no sense.  balls by logicaluk, on Flickr #14 is supposed to be a converter nylon ball and spring, nope haven't got one of those and the hole it goes into appears to be blind, #15 2-3 shift restrictor steel ball and spring, I've got that but there's nowhere for it to go in the upper valve body, so I checked the Rover P6 manual.  20200830_230257 by logicaluk, on Flickr That shows #11b the converter check valve ball and spring I still don't have and #11a rear pump check valve and spring that I also don't have and no sign of the shift restrictor........ lucky I took the pic with the spring in place earlier the sodding thing goes under the separator plate not on top of it. not sure what to make of this, I've read about BW35 boxes puking on the floor overnight as the torque converter drains back down. That was the only difficulty, just being methodical and trying not to rush got me through, TBH nowhere near as bad as I was expecting. Oh, it looked like this when I was finished  20200830_172012 by logicaluk, on Flickr Dan |
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Last Edit: Aug 30, 2020 22:30:00 GMT by logicaluk
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Aug 31, 2020 16:40:27 GMT
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Last night I spent several hours, looking at and editing the video id shot for the tube of you, then decided it was carp and deleted it. Today's Mission which I gladly accepted, was to use my big spanners and complete the strip down and inspection, but mostly using the big spanners. So today's exciting episode is bought to you by Hilka and Gedore. The first bit was so easy I didn't take a pic of it, unbolting the brake band servos but here's a pic of where they were instead.  20200831_114116 by logicaluk, on Flickr Then the front pump comes off so the input shaft, front and rear clutch and the sun gears can come out along with the front brake band. But not before you have realized that the end float needs to be measured, bolted it back up measured and undone all the bolts again. The end float was 0.65mm should be 0.25 to 0.75mm, so not out of spec but well on its way.  20200831_120338 by logicaluk, on Flickr While parts cooked in the cleaning tank it was time for big spanners to get the governor off 1 1/8 Hilka spanner, possibly the first time I've used this spanner, I've had it for 25 years.  20200831_122739 by logicaluk, on Flickr The rear brake band was a fiddle to get out it took me 20 mins to work out how to get it came out, close it up and tilt the bottom out, easy when you know how. Then the adaptor for the dip tube a 15/16 Gedore spanner (which incidentally is a metric casting that been re stamped with the AF size, feels very nice in the hand)  20200831_124901 by logicaluk, on Flickr Input shaft and front clutch pack came apart easily.  20200831_135027 by logicaluk, on Flickr The clutch pack looked in good condition but as I have NOS ones I might as well fit them.  20200831_135031 by logicaluk, on Flickr Under the diaphragm spring there is a plate with a one way valve and a seal which needs to come out to be changed.  20200831_140336 by logicaluk, on Flickr All looked fine until...  20200831_140410 by logicaluk, on Flickr Luckily there's one in the clutch kit. Whilst that cooked in the tank I cleaned the planet gear no point in even trying tio strip it as all moves smoothly, then on to the rear clutch pack and that couldn't have been a more different story to the front.  20200831_143804 by logicaluk, on Flickr No friction material left, bent plates. Toast I tell you toast, at least that's one question answered. Now we know where the sludge came from. Then I hit a problem the spring-loaded rear clutch. And I think it needs a special tool to get the clip out and release the spring.  20200831_143849 by logicaluk, on Flickr I gave it the best clean I could, soaked it in brake cleaner and blew it out with the air line but I think there is a high probability of sludge behind that plate. Suggestions on the back of a post card or down below which ever you feel suits you. I didn't feel the need to remove the selector mech or the parking pawl, so just cleaned them up and scrubbed the case off before blowing it off with an air line.  20200831_154902 by logicaluk, on Flickr the tail shaft got cleaned up too  20200831_153150 by logicaluk, on Flickr And that's what comes out of a Borg Warner 35 gear box.  20200831_154856 by logicaluk, on Flickr Let's hope it all fits back in. Oh, and the brake bands were shot too, the front was missing chunks of surface  20200831_160021 by logicaluk, on Flickr And the rear was almost worn through to the steel.  20200831_160015 by logicaluk, on Flickr And that was the easy bit done. |
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Last Edit: Aug 31, 2020 16:52:15 GMT by logicaluk
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,887
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Aug 31, 2020 17:27:42 GMT
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Good bit of progress there, and judging by what you found it certainly looks like the rebuild was warranted!
I found that the locations of the ball & spring check valves in my valve body also didn't match any of the manuals I had to compare to. I can only presume that some of the subtle variations in the type 35s is made by adding and removing some of these valves.
Have you checked out the downshift valve cam to see if which type you've got?
One type allows for part throttle down shifts, the other will only down shift when the speed drops low enough (and it's low like 10mph or slower when it does the 3-2 shift and basically wont 2-1 shift unless you're stopped) or when you push the throttle far enough to enable the kick down. My box doesn't have the part throttle downshift and I'm sort of regretting not changing it when I had the gearbox apart now I've had chance to do some miles in the car.
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,357
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Aug 31, 2020 18:16:45 GMT
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Good work.
15/16" is as near as dammit 24mm (and 1/2" WW), and I think a lot of manufacturers use the same blanks.
As GnR says, maybe investigate some options while it's apart?
Did you find where the stray tooth came from?
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Aug 31, 2020 18:17:23 GMT
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Good bit of progress there, and judging by what you found it certainly looks like the rebuild was warranted! I found that the locations of the ball & spring check valves in my valve body also didn't match any of the manuals I had to compare to. I can only presume that some of the subtle variations in the type 35s is made by adding and removing some of these valves. Have you checked out the downshift valve cam to see if which type you've got? One type allows for part throttle down shifts, the other will only down shift when the speed drops low enough (and it's low like 10mph or slower when it does the 3-2 shift and basically wont 2-1 shift unless you're stopped) or when you push the throttle far enough to enable the kick down. My box doesn't have the part throttle downshift and I'm sort of regretting not changing it when I had the gearbox apart now I've had chance to do some miles in the car. There more I've just discovered,(see next post) No I haven checked the cam, didn't realize there was a difference have you got pics?, I have got a range control valve which gives the normal P R N D 2 1 rather than P R N D2 D1 L gear pattern, I've got a spare range control valve if you need one. A c&p from wiki Early models have two drive positions marked with a "2" and a "1" (P-R-N-D2-D1-L; Park, Reverse, Neutral, D2, D1 and Lock). These models start off in Second gear when in the D2 position. This is useful for economy in relatively flat terrain and for starting on slippery surfaces (wet mud, snow, ice, etc.). When placed in the D1 position the transmission shifts through all three forward gears. In "Lock" the transmission can be locked to prevent upward gear changes and will provide maximum engine braking in 1st gear and moderate engine braking in 2nd gear. By selecting L from stationary, or before an upward gear change into 2nd gear, the transmission will become locked in 1st gear. By selecting L from D2 or D1 while in 2nd gear, the transmission will become locked in 2nd gear or from D2 or D1 when cruising below 55 m.p.h (88 k.p.h.) will effect an immediate downward change and lock in 2nd gear. In both these instances, the transmission will automatically change down into 1st gear when the car speed drops below 5 m.p.h. (8 k.p.h.). Should 1st gear be required earlier, reduce the car speed to below 30 m.p.h. (48 k.p.h.) and effect a "kick-down" gear change. Many people assume they have a two speed transmission because they expect the first Drive position (D2) to shift through all three gears as all automatic transmissions have done since 1968. Some vehicles had the same system without the D1 and D2, instead just having D, and only 5 stations on the quadrant The Rover P6 manual is far better than the BW one. This is the valve that changed the gear pattern  20200831_200258 by logicaluk, on Flickr Dan |
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Last Edit: Aug 31, 2020 19:17:03 GMT by logicaluk
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Aug 31, 2020 18:23:26 GMT
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Good work. 15/16" is as near as dammit 24mm (and 1/2" WW), and I think a lot of manufacturers use the same blanks. As GnR says, maybe investigate some options while it's apart? Did you find where the stray tooth came from? Thanks and yes I did, the planet gear has shed 2 teeth, bizarrely 2 teeth apart from each other.  20200831_185153 by logicaluk, on Flickr Lucky I have a spare box to dive in to. Dan |
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,887
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Aug 31, 2020 20:44:20 GMT
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That's interesting logicaluk. I'd not realised exactly how the shift pattern was changed. My car should have had the P-R-N-D2-D1-L pattern with the part throttle downshift cam, but the gearbox that came in the car had already been converted to the P-R-N-D-2-1 pattern and has the non-downshift cam. I think given how quickly the gearbox gets out of first anyway, the ability to hold 2nd with engine braking is actually more useful for having fun driving on country roads. But still would have been nice to have tried the original layout for a bit. I got sent this picture by the gearbox specialist, hopefully he wont mind me sharing it. The top cam, EG / 3EG cam shape, is the one that wont do part throttle downshift. The 3rd one down, 5EG, 7EG, 9EG, 11EG & FG shape, will part throttle downshift. The 2nd and 4th pictures are relevant to the type 35 box.  |
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It's a pity that you have problems with the box but you have found causes for the problems which is a good thing.
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Sept 1, 2020 18:09:30 GMT
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As it was an unknown quantity I couldn't have done anything else Peter.
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Sept 1, 2020 19:03:27 GMT
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Looks very close to a BE cam GNR, I also have a spare too.  20200901_193824 by logicaluk, on Flickr Dan Edited to include the pic of the cam |
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Last Edit: Sept 1, 2020 19:27:55 GMT by logicaluk
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,887
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Sept 1, 2020 19:19:27 GMT
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I thought mine looked closest to the BE cam too, but I was told the BE cam doesn't go in a type 35 box so it could be be that and when I sent a picture was confirmed mine is a 3EG type. So I suspect that's what you've got too.  |
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Sept 1, 2020 19:26:26 GMT
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I've just seen this in the back of the car  20200901_185627 by logicaluk, on Flickr About 4.30 it looked like this  20200901_163206 by logicaluk, on Flickr It's a 3.5 from an EFI auto Range Rover, so nothing special, which by the look of the heads has missed a few oil changes, but there's no lip on the bores and the cross-hatching is still just visible.  20200901_181526 by logicaluk, on Flickr  20200901_181609 by logicaluk, on Flickr  20200901_181540 by logicaluk, on Flickr  20200901_181636 by logicaluk, on Flickr Not many pics were taken as it needed to be made lighter to put in the car. There were a couple casualties the Allen head counter sunk bolt in the back of the alternator bracket, eventually came out 3 turns before refusing to go any further, the bracket came off after decapitating the bolt. Also, 2 bolts sheared off in the water pump housing, now I need to look in to what options there are for the water pump, cam cover oil pump housing as this one has 3 belts which I only need one of and looks ugly. An evening well spent. Dan |
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Sept 2, 2020 20:27:19 GMT
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Managed to get the engine unloaded this evening, whilst taking off the ZF flexplate adapter I noticed a glaring omission, the BW 35 flex plate didn't come with the spacer, the person I got the gear boxes and flexplate off, no longer has the block. Oh carp.
There is one on eBay but its 25 quid, don't suppose any one in here has one, it's the 5/8 thick one apparently.
My mate called, he's doing some electro plating experiments and needs his ultrasonic cleaner back, so I've just pushed the button on a 10l one, whilst on the subject of my overdraft.
I've ordered the rebuild kit for the BW, eBay was 75 quid, the chaps GNR suggested wanted 90+ but JR Wadhams got the order for £69
I also ordered a couple of gasket kits, One of which is worthy of a mention, order placed for a head gasket set on eBay for £25 with a seller called shirley9293 at about 1pm, was delivered next day. Brilliant service. Also, a bottom end set for 12 quid which will probably turn up in October.
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Last Edit: Sept 2, 2020 20:28:34 GMT by logicaluk
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If you need parts, I used Graham Whitehouse, 
