Darkspeed
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 20, 2022 19:59:35 GMT
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Ran a quick test on the stock Imp head after making up a quick valve lifter rig. Need to get a light set up in the chamber below the jig to provide better view Ran a quick test 0.05" up to 0.4" lift - need to do some calibration checks at these low figures and change a few compensation figures in the program for temperature as its getting pretty warm in the garage Should be in a position to do some proper testing later in the week
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Last Edit: Jun 20, 2022 20:01:08 GMT by Darkspeed
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 23, 2022 13:56:19 GMT
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Results from the testing on a stock Imp head @28"
050 - 22CFM 150 - 40CFM 200 - 70CFM 250 - 79CFM 300 - 84CFM - 310 - 84CFM 350 - 86CFM - 360 - 86CFM
Will need to check these again as I had a temp swing from 24 degrees when I started to 32 degrees when I had finished! Next step will be dropping on the manifold - Stock Imp sport and CD125 - 71CFM tested - to see what the flow figure is all combined.
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Last Edit: Jun 23, 2022 13:56:44 GMT by Darkspeed
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
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Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 23, 2022 17:43:37 GMT
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So where does this all lead to ? The full inlet tract test. This was tested with the valve lift at 0.310" Interestingly at a 10" there is not sufficient depression to fully lift the CD125 Piston This results in an artificially low flow figure - could have fixed the piston fully open but decided to just wind it up. It was not until we reached 20" that the piston was fully lifted So there we are - all together this stock assembly flows 67CFM @28" - probably a bit higher than it should be due to the 74mm bore unshrouding things so this would be representative of this assembly on a 998 engine. If we take the rough guide of 0.2 - 0.225 BHP per CFM@28" we get 13.4 - 15 BHP per cylinder - 52.6 - 60 BHP
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Last Edit: Jun 23, 2022 17:43:59 GMT by Darkspeed
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Perhaps the obvious question to ask is, does adding a radius to the carburettor inlet increase the flow at all? And do you still see the same flow with a filter on?
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Perhaps the obvious question to ask is, does adding a radius to the carburettor inlet increase the flow at all? And do you still see the same flow with a filter on? All done extensively earlier in this thread.
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Wasn't that only the carb and manifold in isolation? Flowing about 71 CFM@28"? But when assembled with the head you get 67 CFM@28" despite the head seemingly flowing much more (~84 CFM@28") than the carburettor is able to? I find it really intriguing that putting them together makes the flow worse than each in isolation. What could be happening?
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I'd guess that when you flow a component in isolation you get a relatively uniform distribution of flow from the open end which would help use more of the diameter. When you put another component in front it'll bias the flow in certain directions or introduce turbulence that'll influence how well the component behind it flows as the air's no longer entering the original component in an ideal way.
That'd be my guess anyway!
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Darkspeed
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Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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For testing completeness - below is open / with a 3D printed and blended radius / and an ultrasonically cleaned KN without any oil The radius picked up 1 CFM of flow - 68CFM With the filter we lost 1.25 CFM - 66.75CFM - reading a 1/4 of a CFM is not reliable so the rad just compensates for the filter loss at this flow level.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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I'd guess that when you flow a component in isolation you get a relatively uniform distribution of flow from the open end which would help use more of the diameter. When you put another component in front it'll bias the flow in certain directions or introduce turbulence that'll influence how well the component behind it flows as the air's no longer entering the original component in an ideal way. That'd be my guess anyway! If you tested a section of pipe 100mm long and 50mm diameter you would get 'x' flow if you tested 5 they would all be 'x' flow - when you assemble them 500mm long you would get far less flow due to the combined internal frictional losses. For flow in any pipe you will get a loss per M value. With any system like an intake port the length of the port all added up reduces flow - changes in velocity reduces flow - changes in CSA - (much the same as changes in velocity) reduces flow and imposed directional changes - reduces flow. Mismatches in the port sections etc. etc. all reduces flow. Add it all up and the air has to work harder to get to where its needed - work takes energy so a lot of that atmospheric push that you started with at the inlet to the filter has been well used up by the time it gets bounced off the cylinder wall. Make a port section larger from smaller - the air slows down and uses up energy slowing down - make it smaller again and it has to speed up again using up energy - consider all of the sectional changes from the filter to the valve - Half way down that carb the port is square ! And that's within 38mm of the start of the port. In this test Total flow has been shown to be worse than the worst performing component - Improvements in individual components will show an overall gain but in this case it looks like the manifold is where the main restriction is - Well, we actually know this to be the case by physical measurement. Trouble is that this manifold is not mine so I am not about to go opening up the ports to prove what is already known. What I will do next is fit the banana manifold and see what happens.
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Last Edit: Jun 24, 2022 9:38:18 GMT by Darkspeed
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Darkspeed
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Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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And for a bit of extra information - the total port length is approx 300mm - You just feed a piece of string into the port and when then end is flapping about on the valve seat you mark the other end pull it back out and measure it.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 24, 2022 12:25:29 GMT
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So you are feeling flush and are fed up to the back teeth with Strombergs leaking fuel and going out of sync. You spend mucho hard earned on a new manifold and refurbed an old 28/36 DCD. ( DGV used so use your imagination) And we get But in reality you would not have because this manifold has had the ports opened up a little and using the gasket as a gauge the ports provide a pretty good match - so Even if it looks like we have pulled 6CFM out of the hat. I would estimate that if you had taken the same care to match the stock manifold to the head that improvement difference would be down to more like 2CFM. Port length with the Banana - 410mm Still if we use the formula - we are at 73CFM And should be seeing an extra 3-5BHP
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 24, 2022 12:34:41 GMT
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As a quick note - for the CD125 radius test above I took the spring out of the carb - Standard spring for a Sport and even with that removed 10" depression in the bench could not lift the piston against the weight of the piston and the resistance of the diaphragm.
Next riveting instalment - what do you get when you put a competition single DHLA/DCOE sidedraft onto a stock head.
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Last Edit: Jun 24, 2022 13:21:49 GMT by Darkspeed
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 24, 2022 13:57:05 GMT
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As a quick explanation of how the assembly affects total flow. When we test each part individually we have 14.5 PSI available to us at the front end of each component. When we start adding them all together we have a drop in pressure across them individually no matter how well they flow. None will be increasing the pressure available for the next - they will all be reducing it. The only way that will ever get the flows at the valve seen when just testing a head is if you can design an induction that has virtually no resistance to flow - something like this taper set up will get close. We will see how close we can get with our Imp heads when we put the individual runner DCOE/DHLA on it.
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Last Edit: Jun 24, 2022 15:28:10 GMT by Darkspeed
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 24, 2022 15:25:19 GMT
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Fitting the single DHLA/DCOE manifold - Now I will make a note here that the port matching was not to the advantage of this manifold as the manifold is a larger diameter than the standard port. A mismatch this way where the manifold is bigger than the port in the head hurts flow. So I would expect we would see a small gain in flow if the port was enlarged at the manifold joint. This ran Port length was 350mm To show how easily flow is interrupted The string whipping around in the port resulted in this change in flow So there we go - you have spent a reasonable sum on a competition manifold and bolted to your Imp for about 8 CFM - 7.2 BHP And if you fitted a 360 lift cam - you would have possibly seen an extra 1BHP
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Last Edit: Jun 26, 2022 9:14:43 GMT by Darkspeed
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Fully modified sport manifold for CD150's Which flowed The attentive may notice that the depression had been turned up quite a way. Reason for this was to see what it was going to take to get the piston to fully lift. Head cannot flow enough air for a CD150 - The bench confirming what's written about the CD150's being to big until the engine has been significantly modified. As we did not get the full lift with the CD125 at 10" - the CD150 was only just lifting with a greater flow rate. Same as with the DHLA/DCOE - there was a step down to the head due to the manifold being for a ported head For a final test I turned the bench up to about as far I am happy with to see if I could get flow for full piston lift. Even at 34" and pulling 86CFM through the carb it was still not opening fully The expectation being that you will not start to approach the capacity of a CD150 until the head can flow enough to support 75-80 BHP Next. Testing with the full race manifold will take a bit more effort as it clashes with the fixture due to having an exhaust - even just stubs - fitted to it. I will need to grind some steel off it to get sufficient clearance.
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Last Edit: Jun 25, 2022 9:31:12 GMT by Darkspeed
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flyingphil
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Jun 25, 2022 14:54:21 GMT
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Thanks for these updates.....and the detailed explanations!
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 25, 2022 15:38:46 GMT
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Thanks for these updates.....and the detailed explanations! Cheers Phil, It's not a thread that makes easy reading but my own preference is toward the more technical threads a few contributors post from time to time so hopefully there are few on here that also find it interesting. I'm very fortunate to have found myself with access to a lot of old Ginetta G15 (Imp) race parts and its about time I used this flowbench for something.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 25, 2022 17:19:45 GMT
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Final test on the standard Imp head - and no I did not cut the manifold in order to be able to carry out this test - If you know how much these things cost you would appreciate that its not really something you do. Thankfully there are cheaper places to buy these from. Anyway - all I had to do was take a couple of mm off the bottom of the mounting flange in order to get it to fit the head and jig. And the numbers And as we have a good view of the port we can see the mis match we are dealing with Would be dropping us a couple of CFM Not surprising that the full blooded competition manifold gives us the best flow numbers overall and if it was matched to the head it would give the same figures as the bare head with a radius inlet. And that is what the flow bench numbers assume when you test a head. The flow figures and the calculations for theoretical power assume that everything up stream is optimised to feed that port without restriction. By way of a contrast I will drop the full race Chesman 998 on next with just the radius.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 25, 2022 20:46:13 GMT
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Figures for the full race prepared big valve Chesman head ACC212 @28" corrected - average actual depression on the bench 16"
050 - 25CFM 100 - 46CFM 150 - 66CFM 200 - 85CFM 250 - 95CFM 300 - 105CFM 350 - 112CFM 400 - 116CFM 450 - 119CFM
Pulled the bench up to 28" at 0.360" and it was flowing 114CFM Tomorrow I will look at dropping the comp manifold on to see what it does to the numbers.
Port diameter on this thing is huge - there is a little pinch point in an Imp port about 3/4" into the port on the Race head this pinch diameter is 27.5mm - On the Sport std head its 22mm
In most of the Imp tuning manuals the advice is for a full race head you take the port out to 25.75 to 26mm - this is 27.5 at its narrowest point. Exhaust port diameter should be taken out to 23.75mm - This head it's 25mm. Now bigger is not always better with ports so we will need to delve a little deeper at some point.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,878
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The Flowbench thread.Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jun 28, 2022 12:34:57 GMT
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If you want to make a comparison to the bench testing we have done here and some real world tests on the Dyno this article brings the two together quite well. Note the error that state 1-1/2 SU's should read 1-1/4" SU's. There are also good many omissions and un answered questions in that dyno test data. The SU comparison being done on a different manifold without filters and bell mouths. It confirms what is shown up on the bench with the stock Sport head - It has the capacity to produce more power with some simple modifications to the induction and with very little work on the intake the head can flow very well. Also shown is the importance of considering the entire system.
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