425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
|
|
|
Let's be logical about this..... You take a shonky old 1974 chassis, suspension and axles, plonk a newer engine and shell on it, spend christ knows how many thousands of pounds kitting it out as a 1990 spec Vogue...... Does that sound *reasonable* to you? Or, do you take a 1990 Vogue and swap the VIN plate? I know what I'd do...... 'prace bets now!' Yes I can appreciate what you are getting at, and it does happen, BUT: How about this: Plonk a 4-door bodyshell from a cheap Range Rover on your battered 1974 model! The 'Christ knows how many thousands' thing doesn't come into it. I take it you aren't a Land Rover person. You'd be surprised how cheap you can get a Vogue SE for spares! Or this: Build a Range Rover on the original 1974 chassis plus two major components (eg axles as a pair plus steering). That allows you to retain the 1974 registration. Now you can fit the later engine and gearbox and even air suspension if you want to. Put the 4-door body on and Bob's your auntie. All legal. Like I said, I appreciate what you are saying, but as a Land Rover owner (three of the bloody things at the moment) I'm defending the marque. Mike :-)
|
|
Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
|
|
|
425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
|
|
|
Mr Bo11ocks
First of all, apologies for passing on a load of misinformation that I was told about Belgium.
Now, were not talking about all this from the point of view of having replaced standard parts on a car with identical replacements; we're talking about modifying cars and how people are going to get found out with their modified vehicles. This is the problem.
I'm interested in this 'harmonization' of EU traffic laws nonsense that I keep hearing about. You seem pretty well informed and paint a very rosy picture of mainland Europe motoring. Can you throw any light on the following?
Is it not the case that car tuning in Belgium is impossible due to their regulations?
It is virtually (if not totally) impossible to register a kit car or hot rod in France. I'd like to know more about why that is.
Holland (according to a dutch member of the NSRA forum) is a nightmare with usage restrictions for modified vehicles.
Germany and its TUV makes life virtually impossible for car modifiers, right down to having to gain approval if you want to change the paint finish on your car.
If you can throw some light on any of the above points I'd be glad to read about them because I can't find any further information on the subject.
Those are four countries whereby it has been made known on many occasions that life is very difficult or virtually impossible for car modifiers. We've got it very easy over here, but apparently the plans are to take away a lot of our freedom.
I'd be particularly interested in some more information about the lifting of restrictions in France as this seems to go against everything that has been said about increased regulation of vehicles throughout Europe.
The DVLA regulations ARE enforceable down to the letter and that's where the problems lie. If you do something seemingly innocuous to your vehicle and an inspector gets his teeth into it you've had it. He'll point to the rule book. And if you want to try to interpret, for example 'original unmodified chassis' as anything other than that then I think you will be walking on thin ice.
-------------------------------------------
Reanimation, you are right to be relieved if you thought that people replacing standard parts with identical items were going to get hauled in and Q-plated. That's not what it's all about.
The enforcement of the regulations regarding modified vehicles, if implemented in full, will mean it's curtains for car modifying as we know it. That's not paranoia; it's fact.
Mike
|
|
Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
|
|
|
|
|
Hmm. Mk1 golf, different engine/gearbox/rear beam/brakes/coilovers........ am I f*cked. ??
|
|
Last Edit: Feb 3, 2007 22:04:13 GMT by Thrasher
|
|
425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
|
|
|
Depends on how standard the engine and gearbox looks, and if you had to cut any of the monocoque to get them or the suspension modifications in.
If your car looks as if it might attract a Little Hitler then you might be further up the list than some, but I think they'll be busy with all the hot rods - IF the DVLA proposals are implemented in full - and that remains to be seen, because they haven't responded to the NSRA's counter-proposals yet.
Mike
|
|
Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
|
|
|
|
|
[devils advocate mode on] We've had nearly 10 years to get on board with this. Sure the SVA is tough, and has some fairly pointless hoops to jump through, but it is possible to pass. When the SVA came in, many people saw it as the end of the Kit Car industry (and I'm sure a few who couldn't adapt their designs did disappear) but theres still plenty of kits being built. The designs and details were just adapted to pass the test. And it is just that, a test - and if you know all the answers to pass a test it's not that hard really is it. As far as I can see if you can get something like a Cobra or Seven through an SVA without it coming out the other side looking like some poor safety homogenised version of the original, most of of our cars should not be to difficult to get through, just keep an eye on the SVA regs when modifying. Sure the Hot Rod scene will have some real problems, but if somebody said to me you cant drive your car unless you fit bear claw catches or *insert any SVA requirement here* , then I know what I'd be doing. [devils advocate mode off] Not looking forward to a Q plate on the Celica though
|
|
|
|
froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
|
|
|
i run a test station and there are reasons for rejection covering modified steering and suspension parts already .the alarm bells start ringing when you send a v5 to swansea notifying a change of engine size ,i had a letter asking to produce the car to my nearest sva centre for an inspection but no mention of sva testing being required, as far as my reliants go they will fully meet the test requiremants and as they have near as damn it the same size engines I'm giong to risk it but the rumour is that the test will bring in checks for non standard parts but how you are supposed to decide wether theyv are fit for the purpose is another thing,vosa don't have the manpower to police the mot scheme as it is so i shouldnt get too worried about this, the more worrying thing is the delegation of powers to the so called highays patrol to stop and inspect vehicles which happened to me recently
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In france and belgium, it is indeed true that car modifying is NOT allowed. What is modifying defined as? Anything which alters the 'technical specification' of the car according to the french govt website. That is pretty vague I would say, so folk interpret it as best they can in their own way. So in practice, you can't do engine swaps as that would be too obvious and you would get busted by your insurance company if ever you had an accident. But if you want to put some Koni shocks on or a souped up camshaft or an electronic ignition system from a later version of your car or change it from a 4 to a 5 speed, 'technically' its illegal but theres no problem to do it. The car will pass the MOT, its not going to upset the insurance company, and there is no system for sending the VI stasi to car shows to check out what folk are up to. So in fact the situation is very similar to UK really, in that 'technically' it would be illegal here to swap all the running gear from one car to another similar one without informing the DVLA or whatever, but theres no real problem to do it. The goalmouths are significantly narrower on the continent, but exactly where the posts are is just as grey as it is in the UK.
As for lifting restrictions, in France 'historic vehicles' (vehicles with a 'historic' taxation class, which is not obligatory for any vehicle) have up to this year been only allowed to travel in the 'departement' where the owner lives + the immediate surrounding départements. To go further you have had to go and fill out a form at the prefecture saying where you're going, when and why. However as of this year the restrictions are getting lifted on that, due to it being ridiculous.
Kit cars are indeed almost impossible to register in France + belgium as there is just no system at all for deciding if one is a deathtrap or not, unlike our SVA.
Don't know what the crack is in Holland!
|
|
1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
|
|
Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,538
|
|
|
Does anyone know what the legalities in Germany are? They seem to have a pretty healthy modifying culture if any of the show pics of seen on here are to go by?
|
|
Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
|
|
Kyle67
Part of things
Posts: 554
|
|
|
One easy method VOSA will and are using is forums like this and good old Ebay. Take this advert from Ebay today, owned by a forum member... cgi.ebay.co.uk/HILLMAN-AVENGER-TIGER_W0QQitemZ330084689270QQihZ014QQcategoryZ100929QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemNow, in this advert it clearly states it was built into a rustfree shell. To the DVLA, that will mean it was secondhand and the car will have to be SVA'd, Q plated (specialist insurance only) and also lose it's Tiger identification. Trouble is with VOSA, you have to prove otherwise not them. Every week there are more 'tax exempt' Mini's than you can shake a stick at with very few actually genuine cars. It may sound mean or picky to those who think no theft was involved but look at it another way, I could pop out tonight and steal a last of the line Rover Cooper S and then pick up a log book and vin from Ebay for £150. Cheap Mini, eh? I could then sell it on for £3,500 and do the same again. I used to work in the SVA industry and have had many dealings on a daily basis with VOSA and believe me, they think they are god. I had a brand new, delivery mileage Chevy Blazer fail on the handbrake cable not being securly fitted. Vosa know better than GM. It's not only the simple things like lights being E marked, it even goes down to mudflaps, switches and even the stereo knobs. The barry boys will be in for a shock too, lights have to be visable from certain degrees and most bodykits fall foul of that as well as the exterior projections and radius rules. Only advice I can give is to be a bit more coy when talking about any mods done to your cars, they are watching and will be visiting certain shows this year.
|
|
Last Edit: Feb 4, 2007 1:01:27 GMT by Kyle67
|
|
Bioshock
Posted a lot
It aint hip to be square.
Posts: 1,861
|
|
|
Does this just apply to cars,or to bikes as well?
|
|
Almera GTI = ugly bird who turns out to be great in the sack = Win
|
|
|
425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
|
|
|
In france and belgium, it is indeed true that car modifying is NOT allowed. What is modifying defined as? Anything which alters the 'technical specification' of the car according to the french govt website. That is pretty vague I would say, so folk interpret it as best they can in their own way. So in practice, you can't do engine swaps as that would be too obvious and you would get busted by your insurance company if ever you had an accident. But if you want to put some Koni shocks on or a souped up camshaft or an electronic ignition system from a later version of your car or change it from a 4 to a 5 speed, 'technically' its illegal but theres no problem to do it. The car will pass the MOT, its not going to upset the insurance company, and there is no system for sending the VI stasi to car shows to check out what folk are up to. So in fact the situation is very similar to UK really, in that 'technically' it would be illegal here to swap all the running gear from one car to another similar one without informing the DVLA or whatever, but theres no real problem to do it. The goalmouths are significantly narrower on the continent, but exactly where the posts are is just as grey as it is in the UK. As for lifting restrictions, in France 'historic vehicles' (vehicles with a 'historic' taxation class, which is not obligatory for any vehicle) have up to this year been only allowed to travel in the 'departement' where the owner lives + the immediate surrounding départements. To go further you have had to go and fill out a form at the prefecture saying where you're going, when and why. However as of this year the restrictions are getting lifted on that, due to it being ridiculous. Kit cars are indeed almost impossible to register in France + belgium as there is just no system at all for deciding if one is a deathtrap or not, unlike our SVA. Don't know what the crack is in Holland! Thanks for the information So really we've got it easy here. We can change all sorts of stuff from standard and it's not a great problem if you plan ahead. Hopefully the people countering the DVLA proposals (NSRA and others) will have some success. That's interesting about the historic status thing in France. As far as I've been told by people in the know, the historic status for vehicles over here puts them at greatest risk of being put into a restricted class - all part of the harmonization nonsense. So if the French are lifting restrictions, that's a good sign. It's a shame they don't allow modifying. I like it over there. Recently came back from a few days break, messing about moving old cars in and around La Sarthe (Department 72) and as far south as Limoges. A great country to be in. It does surprise me though; there's a lot of freedom over there when it comes to doing things and getting things done - bending the rules and knowing the right people etc. The small town and village atmosphere is lovely - more like Britain in the 1930s (not that I was around then!). Mike
|
|
Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
|
|
Kyle67
Part of things
Posts: 554
|
|
|
Does this just apply to cars,or to bikes as well? Anything with wheels and a V5. Remember, every Q plate they dish out might mean a lucrative number plate they can sell in their cherished mark auctions. Not that I think they would do such a low thing.....
|
|
|
|
425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
|
|
|
I used to work in the SVA industry and have had many dealings on a daily basis with VOSA and believe me, they think they are god. visiting certain shows this year. The SVA test is absoutely ridiculous in some areas. I've taken several kit cars for SVA tests and the test that makes me laugh is when they get their silly dummy head out and start testing it for possible contact with the incorrect radius edges. The absurd part is when they start holding it against things down under the dashboard when in reality the only time your head could possibly get there in an accident is if the damned thing had come off! Mike
|
|
Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
|
|
Kyle67
Part of things
Posts: 554
|
|
|
I loved the mudflap radius test, if it had any (rubber) moulding lines that were not radiused to 2.5 mm it would fail. If you came into contact with the mudflap at speed chances are your head has just been splatted. I had a Ford Maverick fail on a sunroof wind deflector once because if someone was knocked down it could cause injury. I think if a Maverick hit you hard enough in reverse for you to get up on the roof the wind deflector would be the least of your worries.
|
|
|
|
Bioshock
Posted a lot
It aint hip to be square.
Posts: 1,861
|
|
|
I honestly don't know where this is all going to end. not just the car thing,but all of it. It makes me sad for my kids 1984 wasn't all that long ago..............................
|
|
Almera GTI = ugly bird who turns out to be great in the sack = Win
|
|
425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
|
|
|
Regarding the E-marking nonsense for light lenses, I can't remember the exact details of it, but there was a production car that made a mockery of that little rule because it had its lights behind a clear panel. The light lenses had to be E-marked because they were light lenses, but the clear panel that covered the light lens - and was acting as a lens - didn't require an E-mark.
So what's all that nonsense about then?
Mike
|
|
Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
|
|
|
|
|
ALL people coming up with those kind of rues are a bunch of curse word and sexual deviants, who probably like getting their "member" spanked by a german dude in tight leather pants when they come home from work. The same goes for 99.98% of all politicians. Its a fact.
|
|
|
|
Kyle67
Part of things
Posts: 554
|
|
|
Regarding the E-marking nonsense for light lenses, I can't remember the exact details of it, but there was a production car that made a mockery of that little rule because it had its lights behind a clear panel. The light lenses had to be E-marked because they were light lenses, but the clear panel that covered the light lens - and was acting as a lens - didn't require an E-mark. So what's all that nonsense about then? Mike It's one of their silly rules, like if a car has headlamp wash wipe the lamps don't need to be E marked. Also, you can take a car there with wire poking out the tyres and canvas everywhere and they will pass as long as they are E marked or equivalent. A standard UK fitment Volvo 850 radio will fail on it's knobs not radiused though. I used to put an average of 20 to 30 cars through SVA a week and after 3 years it still never ceased to amaze me. They also knew that whatever mods I did to get them through SVA would be put back to original so it was just a money making excercise. There were other loopholes but they were trying to shut them down, the disabled class(all you needed was a knob on the steering) and the campervan class(a cooker,cupboard and somewhere suitable as a bed). I even know of a FTO that was registered as a luton box van, but don't ask how.
|
|
Last Edit: Feb 4, 2007 1:38:51 GMT by Kyle67
|
|
425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
|
|
|
Yes, one of the cars I took had a hood that would fail due to the frame pivot being too near to the driver (you know, if he got dismembered, one of the pieces might touch the hood frame). Anyway, I took the hood frame off inside the test centre and sent the car through. They didn't mind at all.
Hahaha, I love the FTO story! Just treat the rules with the contempt they deserve. Good for them.
Mike
|
|
Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
|
|
425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
|
|
|
Hang on a minute Kyle, I've just seen where you are from. That's your local test centre I used to go to for the SVA tests!
I still take cars there for VIC checks occasionally.
Mike
|
|
Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
|
|
|