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Unfortunately I can see exactly how this will work. I recently had my V5 on the Husky re-issued because the MoT tester wrote down the exact chassis number and there was one digit missing on the V5. Obviously with the computerised MoT they can now attempt to tie up their records. Once the MoT tester puts down 3528 (for example!) as the engine size then the DVLA computer will go off and check... I also wouldn't be hugely surprised to see the MoT test being expanded soon so that MoT testers can report any modifications electronically to the DVLA. Oh, and don't think the MoT tester will be on your side either - if he loses his MoT license, that's his livelihood down the drain, so he'll (by and large) toe the line...
Scary indeed!
Graham
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bxer
Part of things
Posts: 457
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They really don't see the big picture do they? What percentage of cars are modified? and heavily modified? Not much I'd guess! As noted on other threads, how many peeps are running around in their boggo finance £150 per month two year old wrecks with zero maintenance, metal-on-metal brakes, and wire out the sides of the tyres? And whoever bought the Moggy/Capri hybrid recently is in for even more of a world of pain than any of us ever thought
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I think the issue here is that *some* people have been taking the curse word for many years now. Especially the Land Rover enthusiasts - they regularly give modern Landies / Rangies the ID off something much older in order to gain tax exempt status. Remember the Rangie on ebay a few weeks back - plated as a 1974(?) M when it should have had a 1990-ish plate?
'Classic' Mini owners are just as bad - giving 'bitsa' cars built from 80s and 90s parts IDs from the 60s.
Then there's the Max Tosser readers running around in 90s hatchbacks stuffed full of undeclared mods.
You can hardly blame the government for targetting all car enthusiasts due to the curse word-taking by the minorities mentioned above.
It's a curse word solution, but I can't see many other ways around it.
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Prius T-Spirit, Alfa 156 Sportwagon, Alfa 75 TSpark Veloce, Mazda MX-5 1.8iS Honda VFR750FT, Ducati 750SS, BMW R100RT, Hongdou GY200
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There is also the situation regarding sporting cars, ie rally cars. These things frequently get reshelled/engined/gearboxed/axled and from what I've seen, all would need to have SVA in future. Think how many businesses would be affected by this if it was bought in fully - many would just give up and go home with the loss of revenue to the Government through the drop in VAT and taxes.......Sometimes they really blast off both their feet while trying to hit their targets...
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Rover Metro - The TARDIS - brake problems.....Stored Rover 75 - Barge MGZTT Cdti 160+ - Winter Hack and Audi botherer... MGF - The Golden Shot...Stored Project Minion........ Can you see the theme?
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425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
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Twinspark, that Range Rover was probably a 1970s model with a 4-door body plonked on it. If so it wouldn't even require any SVA, Q-plate or anything. Did you look up the VIN number? I did reply to your last thread but last time I looked you hadn't replied. I was looking forward to a good argument too!
Anyway, this hasn't come about with the intention of targeting car enthusiasts with modified cars, rather that it is a crime prevention measure to prevent 'ringing' and the focus is on the identity of the vehicle in question. You can't blame the hot rodders and modified classic people, even though their cars often fall foul of the regulations. These car people did not prompt all the new proposals; car thieves did.
The rules and regulations have been in place for years, but nearly everyone has ignored them because it was easy to do so. It's just unfortunate that now they are clamping down on things (now that they have the technology to do so) that modified car enthusiasts are getting caught up in it.
Everyone knows it is unfair, which is why there is so much going on to counter the proposals as they affect the modified car enthusiasts. Until something happens to our benefit we can only view these proposals and assume they will be implemented. If they are implemented in full, then that will virtually wipe out an industry worth an estimated £2 billion per year in this country, not to mention destroying our hobby.
Mike
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Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
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Fantastic point marina nut, and a great summary/conclusion/explaination 425ci. As said I have nowt illegal on my cars, and i'm not going to change the ID on my sierra for a mk-3 Sierra (cortina)! But a crackdown on my sturdy and safe 'cosworth' upgrade bits will harrass me. as I said i'll be propper joining NSRA to make sure there is clever spokesmen (and ladies) speaking for us.
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Twinspark, that Range Rover was probably a 1970s model with a 4-door body plonked on it. If so it wouldn't even require any SVA, Q-plate or anything. Did you look up the VIN number? I did reply to your last thread but last time I looked you hadn't replied. I was looking forward to a good argument too! Anyway, this hasn't come about with the intention of targeting car enthusiasts with modified cars, rather that it is a crime prevention measure to prevent 'ringing' and the focus is on the identity of the vehicle in question. You can't blame the hot rodders and modified classic people, even though their cars often fall foul of the regulations. These car people did not prompt all the new proposals; car thieves did. The rules and regulations have been in place for years, but nearly everyone has ignored them because it was easy to do so. It's just unfortunate that now they are clamping down on things (now that they have the technology to do so) that modified car enthusiasts are getting caught up in it. Everyone knows it is unfair, which is why there is so much going on to counter the proposals as they affect the modified car enthusiasts. Until something happens to our benefit we can only view these proposals and assume they will be implemented. If they are implemented in full, then that will virtually wipe out an industry worth an estimated £2 billion per year in this country, not to mention destroying our hobby. Mike That Rangie did check out as a 1974 model - but there is absolutely no way it had any 1974 parts on it. *That* is exactly the kind of reason why the 'points' system has been brough in and is now being enforced. Whoever built it had slapped the ID from a 1974 car onto a 1990-ish car. Maybe the rules did originate in trying to stamp out crime- but they've just unearthed a load of questionable older cars that really shouldn't have the original ID left on them. As I say - Mini owners are one of the worst for this - take a 1990s Mini, stick on some period bits and an early 70s Cooper VIN and you've got a tax-free car worth double what it was as a 1990s model..... it happens, I know someone with a folder full of Cooper V5s awaiting use on newer cars. If anyone is to blame for the enforcement it's the people operating in the 'enthusiast' field who have been taking the curse word - I'm sure there are more examples than just the Mini and Rangie / Landie owners - almost certain Beetle owners will be guilty of the same. If it wasn't for the fact that there *are* a minority of classic owners who have been taking the curse word for years, we wouldn't be worried about this now. As another example, I know of an Astra GTE that has been reshelled into a Daewoo shell, but it's still declared as a Daewoo on the V5. With stuff like that going on, is it any wonder there is a clamp-down? As is usual, a small minority of fuckwits have now brought the whole 'scene' into question. With regards to the other thread, I have no desire to argue - we're at completely opposite ends of the spectrum on the subject and it's obvious we should just agree to disagree.
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Prius T-Spirit, Alfa 156 Sportwagon, Alfa 75 TSpark Veloce, Mazda MX-5 1.8iS Honda VFR750FT, Ducati 750SS, BMW R100RT, Hongdou GY200
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It happens in the Imp world too. Every few months there's a thread on the Imp Club forum along the lines of "Did you see that car on ebay? V5 says it's tax free, but all the bodyshell details say it's a late model car." From the response I'd guess that every car scene/subculture that has vehicles that span the 1973 cut-off also has people giving modern cars older identities.
At the end of the day, it's like smuggling. There's only one way to stop it, change the tax regime. It only happens because there's a poxy, entirely arbitary cutoff date set for free tax...
Graham
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425ci
Part of things
Posts: 518
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That Rangie did check out as a 1974 model - but there is absolutely no way it had any 1974 parts on it. How on earth can you state that without having inspected the car? Mike
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Current vehicle: Mountfield Mirage 3.5hp (18" cut)
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Let's be logical about this.....
You take a shonky old 1974 chassis, suspension and axles, plonk a newer engine and shell on it, spend christ knows how many thousands of pounds kitting it out as a 1990 spec Vogue......
Does that sound *reasonable* to you?
Or, do you take a 1990 Vogue and swap the VIN plate?
I know what I'd do...... 'prace bets now!'
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Prius T-Spirit, Alfa 156 Sportwagon, Alfa 75 TSpark Veloce, Mazda MX-5 1.8iS Honda VFR750FT, Ducati 750SS, BMW R100RT, Hongdou GY200
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Er...but there's no advantage to be had. 1974 wouldn't be tax exempt anyway so what would be the point.
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1962 Datsun Bluebird Estate - 1971 Datsun 510 SSS - 1976 Datsun 710 SSS - 1981 Dodge van - 1985 Nissan Cherry Europe GTi - 1988 Nissan Prairie - 1990 Hyundai Pony Pickup - 1992 Mazda MX5
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I reckon it was bodged together whilst the rolling exemption was in force.
It was still *very* suspect, and exactly the reason why regulations are now being enforced more vigorously.
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Prius T-Spirit, Alfa 156 Sportwagon, Alfa 75 TSpark Veloce, Mazda MX-5 1.8iS Honda VFR750FT, Ducati 750SS, BMW R100RT, Hongdou GY200
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i daren't read all the way through this thread cos the missus will give me grief, she's trying to get to sleep.
i've got a mate who works for VOSA (Nottingham) and if someone can do a concise set of questions i'm happy to put them to him and ask for a sort of man in the know but nowt official sort of reply.
nudeblokeguz@hotmail.com <my email addy.
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bryn
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,913
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As is usual, a small minority of fuckwits have now brought the whole 'scene' into question. I have to say that's an incredibly naive point of view... As for your comments on the Range Rover saga TS, join the Police force, VOSA or any other body that you can properly action such accusations from within, or please be quiet. As a member of the 'scene', I do not want you to act on my behalf as a self appointed guardian. This has been coming for a very long time and has certainly not been spurred on by a minority of enthusiasts, because that is what we are... A minority and let's not forget that. I've watched legislation proposals and consultations pile up since I started working in the industry ten years ago, and that was on top of a large heap back then. This goes far wider and we are caught on the fringe of very large catchment area. I'm talking about the huge increase in global import and export of vehicles and car theft for a start. Couple that with the EU and in a very simplistic way, you arrive here. Just remember that at the moment we have it very good in this country... I really can't add to the debate of what/could/will/should be. to be honest it used to be a horrible thing for me to admit, but I'm almost past caring. Right now I'm four weeks off completing the sale of my house and in the immediate moment I don't see a future for me in this country, for reasons such as this thread and many other both personally and politically. I don't mean to annoy with my apparent apathy in the last para but that said, I really wish we didn't have to deal with curse word like this Good thread though, great debate and very interesting...
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Volvo, Buggy, Discovery and an old tractor.
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The point is even if you took a 1974 Range Rover Chassis and fitted a 1990 body on top you still need to go through SVA. Any car reshelled with a **USED** shell needs SVA. If you use a new shell you are OK. If its used you just got your self a Q plate.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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As for RatDat's coment about who is to say what is original and not, well, thats easy. A DVLA recognised expert will. They already have these in place. Certain approved clubs and automotive historians can authenticate vehicles. So for obscure stuff like Datsuns and odd J cars,.. it'll be people like RatDat authenticating his own vehicles?? Because I'm sure someone at the DVLA wouldn't know a modified pillarless Datsun 330 from an unmodified one, for things like gear box, running gear etc. (engine and suspension mods would stand out,.... but they are only 3 points all put together). Nope. Unless RatDat is authorised by the DVLA as an automotive historian and marque expert on their register of approved experts he will either have to find someone else who is or he will be screwed. Do you suspect that they care a fig if someone can't find an appropriate "expert"? If you are in the happy position of being a DVLA recognised "expert" I do not know if they will let you "authenticate" your own car? Then VOSA lets MOT testers MOT test thier own cars (at the moment).... I believe the register of experts is DVLA doc V798 or something. Might be worth a search see if we can find a copy, see what the list looks like. I'm pretty sure the NSRA have been trying to get on this approved list but can't. NSRA response to DVLA stuff: www.nsra.org.uk/editorial13.htmThere doesn't seem to be much on there now, there was tons before? Worth going and having a nose around the site. Keep an eye of fro Kapri (Kev Rooney) who seems to be a one man DVLA fighting machine. Also its all well and good having internet communities like this but when it comes down to legislation and the like only good old fashioned clubs with a physical presence and some cash to operate will make any odds. May I also mention the NSRA again at this point, especially for those of us with cars built before 1972.... There was an organisation being set up called ACE, Association of Car Enthusiasts, basicaly a group to unite rodders, retros and modern modders in a unified front against restrictive govt regulations, but I understand its kinda died a death of appathy because nobody really cared except Kev/NSRA, so the NSRA seems to be soldiering on alone. So don't be surprised if any "breaks" get granted for pre-72 cars only.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Sorry but there is an alarming level of total BS in this thread. Right, this doesn't just cover modifications. If you have a 1997 Mondeo and you fit a new engine, box, suspension, etc. all from a 1998 Mondeo all of a sudden you get a Q plate. Even if its all stock Ford stuff. What on earth!!! How is anyone going to know? Sorry but that is total nonsense. If you change the engine, tell the DVLA the new engine no. and CC (if that has changed) and everyone's happy. As if the DVLA are going to give two hoots if you change the front suspension, which will certainly need changing anyway due to wear, at some point. The point is even if you took a 1974 Range Rover Chassis and fitted a 1990 body on top you still need to go through SVA. Any car reshelled with a **USED** shell needs SVA. If you use a new shell you are OK. If its used you just got your self a Q plate. Again how is any of this going to be proved? it cannot. No one is ever going to get into a discussion about that. How is anyone going to prove the age of a bodyshell? From this bracket or that swage line or whatever? Across eurpoe folk rebuild rotten old cars using s/h bodyshells, as long as they are not stealing stuff to do it theres no problem. How about only being allowed to use your vehicle on certain days, to go to and from a show or special event? These are the kind of things that are happening now in Europe (Belgium for example) and are on the cards for us over here. Have you any links to what is actually happening in belgium? I'm not aware of the restrictions. Sorry, I can't find the link. It cropped up in a discussion about traffic regulations on another forum. Also incorrect. In Belgium, like in France, there is a special classification of historic vehicle. These vehicles are subject to a greatly reduced tax and less strict MOT requirements. Also vehicles which have lost their identity papers can legally be brought back onto the road via these categories after a sort of identity check by a recognised expert. The restrictions you mention about only being able to use it to go to recognised car events and within your own county etc do exist, but certainly in France are being lifted from February 2007. So the classification has a lot of benefits. In France, Germany and Belgium there is no restriction on using a 30-year old car every day if you want to as long as it is properly insured etc. The DVLA 'points' thing is a load of hot air too. Apart from the engine, none of those components are numbered so who is going to know if stuff has been swapped round from one car to another? No-one. And even if you uprate your Sierra with non-original cosworth suspension, again, what MOT tester is going to know/care? no-one as long as you have bolted it on properly. The DVLA needs some guidelines about this and they have got some. They are not enforeceable down to the letter, they know that and we know that, don't take the p1ss (i.e. ringing your motor to make it tax exempt, changing the engine and not telling anyone and so on) and there is no problem. Does that mean that any further modification - I.e. if I changed steering and axle would void my car's existence on it's current plate? Yes. You would then need to have an SVA test and be issued a new V5 and newe Q plate if it passed SVA. Have a bit of common! How is anyone going to be able to prove that Lewis has changed his steering and axle? They just aren't!!!
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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No, quite, but it would be an issue if it was a non-standard axle I guess..steering's a bit difficult really!
Doesn't really fuss me that much anyway.
I think they should make Q plates desirable somehow - then people wouldn't mind complying so much - or change how it works. Maybe get issued with a totally custom plate, or retain the vehicles reg but have a "modified" tag of somesort on the plate somewhere and declared on the V5.
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Last Edit: Feb 3, 2007 16:37:10 GMT by Lewis
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Thanks Mr B for a breath of fresh (common sense) Air. If you are correct, which i'd like to think you are, then i'm a lot happier. You can see where paranoia comes from though (and yes some of it is generated online and on the old fashined grape vine), still gonna join some o these clubs. And i also agree that if the rolling tax exempt had carried on some of this pee taking and overinflated makets for pre73 cars and 'blackmarket' pre73 ID's would not be as common. Thinking about it, a rolling 20, 25, 30 or even 40 years would be ok. it would encourage recycling (which is green and saves the planet BTW) and can you see a lot of 'modern cars' lasting that long? I also think like old red phone boxes, old (legal) cars on the roads give Britain a bit of its character. Any BS in there i appologise, i'm not BS-exempt i know! end from me
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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I think a lot of the comments on this post are confusing replacing axles and suspension like for like with actually changing things ie beam front to independent on an old 50s American truck for instance. Mr B don't forget in France and Belgium there is a world of difference between a unmodified classic and a hot rod when inspection is concerned.
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