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Jan 14, 2011 12:30:48 GMT
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Whether you're into green issues or not, like it or not, fuel prices are going up. I've been interested in eco conversions on retro vehicles for some time and have been looking into home electric conversions and even ways to bodge on my own hybrid system so I can roll around town on the electric motor and fire up the engine when I need to get a move on. Going all electric is dead easy. If you've got space to hide the batteries then there are numerous electric conversions out there and have been since the mid 90's. The advantage of converting an older car is you get the light weight, you use deep draw lead-acid technology which is cheap and plentiful and, even though you have to change the batteries once a year, the running costs are still quite a bit lower than petrol. The main problem I've had up to now is how to do a hybrid. Most hybrids are FWD and a lot bigger than older cars. To rob all the gubbins from a wrecked Prius, CRZ or gen 2 Insight would be easy enough, but stuffing it all under something like a Nova would just be impossible. And on top of that, a lot of our cars are RWD which pretty much rules out our options. Until now. BMW are doing a hybrid system in the next generation 1-Series. This is the funny looking little hatch type car, which happens to be RWD. According to these links it'll be hitting the market late 2011 to early 2012: www.worldcarfans.com/109111923143/bmw-1-series-hybrid-spied-for-first-timewww.autoblog.com/2009/11/19/spy-shots-bmw-1-series-hybrid-spotted-in-munich/This is good news for us who want to drop economical motors into our cars. I'm sure it won't be too long before the first wreckers come up for sale, so by 2013 we'll probably have quite a few powerplants in circulation. Those Bimmers aren't the lightest of cars, so if they can do 55mpg combined, when stuffed in a light retro shell they should be able to stretch their legs a lot further. Here's a bit of Bradley GT electric action: blog.sierratradingpost.com/in-the-news/teenager-builds-electric-car-for-10000/
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Last Edit: Jan 14, 2011 12:59:34 GMT by Deleted
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rysz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,558
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Jan 14, 2011 12:34:59 GMT
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That sounds like great news for RWD fans!
I quite fancy an electric car for zipping to work - a round trip of about 16 miles - what are the charging costs associated with this? I assume, it would need charging every evening dependant on the number / type of batteries that are used and also the motors that are installed.
Any links that you have found and are willing to share would be great - I would appreciate your experience and knowledge on this!
Thanks.
Rysz.
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bryn
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,913
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Jan 14, 2011 12:50:51 GMT
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Good thinking, I've long been a defender of the retro realm, while being a driver of many miles. When fuel with 60-70p a litre it still made sense to bomb around in old BMWs, Volvos etc But in the last year I've made the switch to more modern, TD cars to save fuel expenses. To be honest since doing so I've realised how naive I've been for quite a while, I think the first instance I got of this was when my M6 powered E28 got danced on by a new 535D. Some people still equate fuel efficiency with boredom, which just isn't true. My current daily (Alfa below) does over 40mpg, with loads of torque and is more than satisfying on a daily basis. To get decent mpu (miles per unit) in an older chassis would be great, I like the BMW donor idea especially. I've tried LPG, although never on a small engine which is where I think it's best suited, I bought a hydrogen kit and never fitted it... Never tried electric or hybrid though, but I can see they are the future Supposed to be electric... Although secretly I'm kind of disappointed we're not all driving through perspex tubes in the sky, in things like this Colenta Electric car
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Volvo, Buggy, Discovery and an old tractor.
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Jan 14, 2011 12:55:42 GMT
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rysz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,558
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Jan 14, 2011 12:57:33 GMT
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Thanks J69! Lunchtime reading! Rysz.
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speedy88
Club Retro Rides Member
"Nice Cortina mate"
Posts: 2,296
Club RR Member Number: 118
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Jan 14, 2011 13:02:07 GMT
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Hybrids are notoriously terrible on motorways for mpg though. I've been more of a fan of the new direct injection engines - 50mpg and 110bhp from a little 1.2 petrol? Want!
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berendd
Europe
why do I need 3 keys for one car?
Posts: 1,449
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Jan 14, 2011 13:19:31 GMT
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Jan 14, 2011 13:24:39 GMT
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I had been thinking this over. I had planned to use a Cadillac Eldorado and have a V8 FWD with an electric motor driving a rear axle. Manual switch between the two unless I could come up with an idea to do anything smarter.
Lots of small light FWD Retros - Renner 5, Renner 4, 2CV, Mini, K10 Micra, etc.
I also wondered if you could make a RWD retro hybrid by attaching the electric drive to the back of the diff in some way.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Lawsy
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,615
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Jan 14, 2011 13:25:11 GMT
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my current daily isnt that bad, it weights 1.5 tonnes, has a 140 BHP with around 320 nm torque (small remap see's 185 bhp and 410nm, but not done it yet) basically pulls like a train and is very smooth and powerful
driving it on the normal commute which is spirited along A roads still see's 45-50 mpg's and if i can cope with it, stick at 55 mph on a long run and its done 65mpg avergare over 200 miles before now
somedays i dream of it being rear ended so insurance write it off so i can buy back the engine and stick it something old n retro - that would be awesome then
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Jan 14, 2011 13:26:23 GMT
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I know its a bit of a hack job... But me and a guy i worked with once tried to wedge a forklift motor into his mk3 polo.... Gave up when we realised the cost of batteries and having a adaptor made for the motor....
The idea was to use the existing speed controller(hooked up to throttle pedal), Get the motor rewound and balanced to make it a bit more efficiant and less industrial,
And use the existing gearbox, clutch and so on to give it a better top end than a direct drive FLT motor would give.
Probably would work.... Although id prefer it on a rwd basis , as a flt motor is a bit of a weight, and its a bit heavier on one end than the other....
Sitting over a crossmember would make more sense, I.e in a starlet or mk1/2 escort..
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Jan 14, 2011 13:41:55 GMT
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If you were prepared to lose some foot room in the back you could make a space in the floor for an electric motor and in the boot for batteries and use a chain to drive the propshaft, just need to put the car into neutral and go that way Oh, and fit a great big alternator..
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jan 14, 2011 13:45:13 GMT
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If you were prepared to lose some foot room in the back you could make a space in the floor for an electric motor and in the boot for batteries and use a chain to drive the propshaft, just need to put the car into neutral and go that way Oh, and fit a great big alternator.. Got me thinking there... What about a 4wd transfer box? run it thru that? Or modify the diff and hang the motor over the back... Loads of space if you go for something big like bimmer/ vaux or whatever...
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Jan 14, 2011 13:54:31 GMT
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I also wondered if you could make a RWD retro hybrid by attaching the electric drive to the back of the diff in some way. I've had a look at the Prius setup and it's an integrated engine/autobox/motor and it's all controlled by the computer. It didn't look like you could easily operate it as component parts, because it was the box that soaked up the transition between electric drive and the engine taking over. The gen 1 Insight has the motor sandwiched between the engine and the gearbox. It's a big diameter thin unit sat in the bellhousing that looks like it's probably used as the flywheel as well. It basically drives the car and starts the engine at the same time, but is powerful enough that you don't feel the engine sap off it. This is the system that the BMW is going with, so there might be a chance it'll all bolt off the gearbox if you didn't want to use the BMW box. Potentially scope to adapt that system onto other engines, between the flywheel and gearbox...?
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Jan 14, 2011 13:56:48 GMT
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Direct drive engines in the hubs. Imagine the possibilities!
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luckygti
Posted a lot
I need to try harder!
Posts: 4,912
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Jan 14, 2011 14:05:20 GMT
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Hard to believe but the Yanks are quite up on the electric car stuff, have a read here; www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/electric-car-conversion-kit.htmlThey do a universal kit as well, but one of the kits mentioned is a Chevy S-10 kit for about $9K. Which is a lot, but there are plenty of good ideas there. This one is a bit more tongue in cheek but much more up our street I would say! A hybrid with a generator in the back! www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/portable-generator.htmlI think pick ups are ideal, a company used to make a fibreglass mini pickup (Domino, if anyone knows of one, i'm after one!!) and I reckon this kind of thing would be ideal! There are more electric kit cars coming out now, they seem to lead the way in this country!
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skinnylew
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,620
Club RR Member Number: 11
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Jan 14, 2011 14:50:58 GMT
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I was thinking about this after we discussed it on the way back from the RR Awards and you've convinced me that this may well be the way forward, certainly the idea of creating something that pushes the boundaries a bit would be uber cool!
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Jan 14, 2011 15:13:41 GMT
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I think the future will end up being a series hybrid, an electric car with a small fossil fuel motor that doesn't drive the wheels but tops up the batteries extending the charge time/range until the next proper charge.
What sort of size of generator would you need to keep a set of running batteries topped up? I know this is similar to what top gear did with their hybrid, but it was based on sound principles.
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CIH
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,466
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Jan 14, 2011 15:29:27 GMT
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Well i wouldn't get too excited about the RWD link as that article doesn't say either way and it's already been stated elsewhere that the next 1-series will be MINI based. Could be using the 1-series mule as a testbed for a 3-series syetm though ?
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30psi
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,024
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Jan 14, 2011 15:56:57 GMT
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I thought about this for a few mins.
Is it worth it? I don't think it would be worth the outlay and efforts unless you're doing a great amount of slow miles. The costs of getting a wrecked car with all the rights bits to do a conversion won't be cheap and I can't see how getting the parts seperately will be cheap either.
Unless I'm missing something?
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1962 Ford Thunderbird 6.4L
1981 Datsun Bluebird SSS CA18DET
1981 Datsun Bluebird SSS SR20DE
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Jan 14, 2011 17:06:33 GMT
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The problem with doing a conversion purely for the purposes of economy is the same “buy a new car for the economy” problem. If a hybrid vehicle based on your favourite classic or retro will do say 55 MPG on unleaded, and the regular petrol only version will do 30 MPG, then what kind of mileage do you need to do to justify the conversion cost? This obviously will throw up all the issues about how much is may or may not cost to get whatever parts etc. You also don't know what it will really do to the gallon until you build it and see. How disappointing if you spend £2K on converting your 28 MPG Viva or whatever into a 29 MPG Hybrid. If you do 100,000 miles a year you may repay your investment in...
Of course the ever rising price of fuel makes efficiency-minded conversions more attractive with each bump of a penny or three on the litre. Plus there is always the value in doing this kind of thing just for the pure hell of it.
Me, I'm interested in hydrogen. I see University of Sheffield have a Ford Focus which has been converted to hydrogen power. Its pretty much like an LPG conversion with pretty much the same issues, although they claim loss of power is “unnoticeable” and the loss of fuel efficiency is more than made up by the projected lower cost and lower pollution of the fuel. However the really fun part comes in that the other part of their research is to develop a home hydrogen generator. This would be principally solar powered but with a mains hook up too. Thus you could use good old tap water (or even rain water if you prefer) to make your own fuel at home. No more hunting for petrol stations, and especially for the LPG users, no more hunting for a petrol station with LPG pump. Just gas up at home and off you go.
This means I can retain the old school internal combustion engine technology I am happy I understand and still be eco-whatzit and save a fortune on petrol costs to boot.
Again this depends on the cost of the hydrogen conversion, the generator itself, and the running costs assuming it won't run solar 12 months of the year.
As a tertiary benefit they also claim you can run your domestic central heating off the same hydrogen gas which splits the return on investment for your capital expenditure against the benefits in two subsequent revenue expenses – and for most families the cost of petrol and the cost of heating are two very significant household expenses. I'm not wanting to go of into the polarising eco debate but its worth a note that vehicle fuel and central heating are the two household contributors towards climate change most often identified by green campaigners and the like. Its also worth a note that home generation of hydrogen would effectively remove both of these from taxation...
See, to me the fun part of the whole hybrid thing is the electronic control systems. I'm a bit of a gadget freak and a bit of a geek on the side. The dash display on the Prius is well cool. I'd want that. In fact that in itself is almost enough to “sell” the car to me. Hybrid Synergy Drive Engagement NOW Captain! Ho ho ho. Its all very sci-fi
Now nobody says fuel efficient cars have to be boring. Its just that on the whole in the past it has been a bit of a link between the two. In recent years the manufacturers have gotten their finger out and have been developing cars which can haul the mail as well as being good on fuel and low on emissions.
The problem (for us) is that these fast and efficient cars are holistic designs. Its not just a question of grabbing a decent efficient engine out of a late model and dropping it in any old banger. Although you will get some gains doing that over the smokey, worn out 100,000 mile carburettor engine in there, the big gains in MPG have come from clever use of aerodynamics and overall gearing, well chosen intermediate ratios and all that stuff.
Also unless you are lucky these modern, powerful, efficient engines are also pretty expensive to go buy. Plus you need the electronic control systems for them. The second we get to “meh, just run it on bike carbs and a megajolt” you are missing the point of the conversion. Diesels are much the same as petrols, lots of control systems, and lots of interlinking between what is an engine function and what is a vehicle function (ie the ECU may control fuel pumps, security systems, audio, braking, air con, etc.)
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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