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Jan 14, 2011 17:14:45 GMT
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I thought about this for a few mins. Is it worth it? I don't think it would be worth the outlay and efforts unless you're doing a great amount of slow miles. The costs of getting a wrecked car with all the rights bits to do a conversion won't be cheap and I can't see how getting the parts seperately will be cheap either. Unless I'm missing something? The sad reality is I have something like £2K sunk in the hot pre-crossflow in my Anglia. The hybrid unit in the Bimmer will probably cost about the same, it'll have more power but it'll do double the miles on the same amount of fuel...
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Jan 14, 2011 17:16:56 GMT
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I also wondered if you could make a RWD retro hybrid by attaching the electric drive to the back of the diff in some way. I've had a look at the Prius setup and it's an integrated engine/autobox/motor and it's all controlled by the computer. It didn't look like you could easily operate it as component parts, because it was the box that soaked up the transition between electric drive and the engine taking over. The gen 1 Insight has the motor sandwiched between the engine and the gearbox. It's a big diameter thin unit sat in the bellhousing that looks like it's probably used as the flywheel as well. You could always adopt the method they used on the Eco Challenger. (a current model R/T Challenger that was converted to hybrid). Buy a DC motor with a straight thru' armature shaft and cut the prop shaft to accept it in line. The prop shaft is always turning whether the transmission is engaged or not so provides regenerative power to the batteries and switches itself from drive to dynamo mode electronically. This way you get charging from the motor when coasting down hill in electric mode or charging from the engine when you change over to petrol without having to make any mods to the standard engine/gearbox set up whatsoever. Got to be the easiest/cheapest way I would have thought.
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Last Edit: Jan 14, 2011 17:29:53 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 14, 2011 17:18:12 GMT
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managed to get at least 25% better economy out of a mk5 cortina, and double the power it started with with the 24v, didnt try to go mad with it and left it stock as possible enginewise, had it not been written off i would have geared it up quite a lot as well as it ran out of revs at 130mph.
I reckon it could have done 40-45mpg at 60mph, it was averaging 30mpg over mixed driving and thrashing about with the short gearing.
I think the main benefit of a hybrid will be the tax breaks, the abilty to go into town if they ever ban old cars from cities and the cheap runs to the shops and school and back, it may be cheaper and just as effective to buy a G whizz as a second car.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jan 14, 2011 17:44:57 GMT
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I worked for a garage that sold electric cars back in the early 70's , The Enfield, made on the Isle of Wight. They did 50mph and 50 mile range. Nearly 40 years on and they have almost managed to double performance ( woohoo! )whilst other technology has come on leaps and bounds ( computers and mobile phones to mention but two that basically didn't exist in consumer form back then) . Meanwhile IC engines have come on leaps and bounds on both performance and economy for any given displacement. Look at the Twincharger 1.4 Polo from both huge amounts of power with good economy. An alternative way of going green is downsizing engines ,gearing up for economy with switchable performance devices, something I'm playing with myself. There is obviously a call for 'greener' transport but while the power of the world rests in the hands of those who have power over the world I am cynical enough to believe that advances will be limited. Electricity still has to be produced from something, energy cannot be created only transferred from one form to another. We will see whether we are able to deal with any byproducts of that process to our atmosphere in the future.
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Jan 14, 2011 17:47:16 GMT
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Nissan K12 March and Z11 Cube I think have a 4wd option which is basically an electric transaxle at the back. No idea what the generator setup is like, other than the wiring for it is described as 'caution - high voltage' in the manual. If it is a DC motor though, then I guess there would be no reason it couldn't be run off a bank of batteries.
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Jan 14, 2011 17:58:45 GMT
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Meanwhile IC engines have come on leaps and bounds in part because there is more consumer demand for IC motors, thus more money invested in them, thusmore development, thus more consumer demand, thus... electic works in trains, forklifts and all manner of high demand applications. I think alternative fuels for IC engines are probably a fair slice of the solution.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jan 14, 2011 18:13:37 GMT
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Hybrids are a waste of time unless you're running a retro taxicab or courier business.
Standard car - 60 mpg a-road, and lets be silly and say 20 mpg town Hybrid car - 50 mpg a-road (all that extra mass that does nothing useful), and lets be silly and say 50 mpg town
Crank the numbers for the miles that you do. Urban fuel economy doesn't matter a jot, only out-of-town fuel economy.
Hybrids get worse (or at the absolute best, the same) economy out of town than a regular car and will cost more to buy/retrofit. Why bother?
I *am* looking forward to the next generation of 1.4 turbo petrol motors though. (there is an emissions exemption at 1400 cc, you're allowed to make them dirtier than over 1400 cc, so car makers will head for 1.4 turbo at 150 to 200 bhp as the default family car) Those will be mint - cheap, bombproof, economical, quiet, lightweight, and pretty nice to drive once you've binned the OEM's engine mapping. (almost all modern cars have a delay built into the throttle, to stop the emissions you get when you snap it open or shut, diseasels especially)
Don't under-estimate the aero on the new cars mind - makes a mahoosive difference once cruising at speed.
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-- Marko
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Jan 14, 2011 18:15:51 GMT
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Is it me or is the origional Toyota Prius actually looking quite funky and cool now???
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Jan 14, 2011 18:23:44 GMT
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Urban fuel economy doesn't matter a jot, only out-of-town fuel economy. Unless, like me, your commute is 100% urban mileage. 5 days a week is all city miles. I even was considering a scooter or something.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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EmDee
Club Retro Rides Member
Committer of Autrocities.
Posts: 5,932
Club RR Member Number: 108
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Jan 14, 2011 18:24:43 GMT
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Is it me or is the origional Toyota Prius actually looking quite funky and cool now??? yeah just you
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Last Edit: Jan 14, 2011 18:25:09 GMT by EmDee
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Jan 14, 2011 18:25:04 GMT
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oh, and...
That guy who built that mental 2000 BHP Duramax Diesel powered Chevelle is working on a high power hybrid. That will be interesting to see...
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jan 14, 2011 18:44:24 GMT
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Urban fuel economy doesn't matter a jot, only out-of-town fuel economy. Unless, like me, your commute is 100% urban mileage. 5 days a week is all city miles. I even was considering a scooter or something. Why don't we pass laws for people living in the dense rabbit warrens, and leave the country people alone. We have different needs than you. You can take a bus, sip your latte, and read the news on your palmpilot. I have to haul 6 engines to the hot tank 40 miles away, then lift a pallet of plywood in back, drop off 2 minor children from school, refill the 2 acetylene tanks, and pick orders from 7 distributed warehouses. I can't use mass transit or a Pious....
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Last Edit: Jan 14, 2011 18:45:08 GMT by Team Blitz
Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Jan 14, 2011 20:56:42 GMT
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I can't use mass transit or a Pious.... ;D Pious!! Lmao The whole green thing is just another conspiracy put about to make us feel guilty about using energy. Meanwhile the oil industry and all the people who have power and influence continue to make big money out of it. Only reason you haven't got access to usable renewable energy is cos there's not as much profit to be made from it as there is from oil. Damned stuff comes out of the ground so you can't get much cheaper than that! Once they've got the public to accept some crazy price for their weekly 'fix' of petrol, they will then be able to offer us the green alternative at a price that keeps the gravy train rollin' for them. At the moment the margins on green fuel would be too thin for the greedy b*stards. Meanwhile they have the governments of the world re-educating us to go green whilst they continue to hike the prices of oil so as green fuel will be a profitable commodity in the future. So why should I feel guilty?
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'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 14, 2011 21:11:20 GMT
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c'mon guys lets keep this on topic not have another thread locked going off in pointless political rants, want to howl at the moon please take it elsewhere.
Norm - my commute is all urban driving. Not sure why you seem to have a problem with that. Loads of people live in the city or the urban sprawl. Not everyone can afford a big place in the country. My point was simply that the guy who says "urban" mileage is irrelavent should be more accurate and say urban mileage is irrelevant to him. The UK is a predominantly urban society. If I lived any further out I really couldn't afford to run a Cadillac as a daily...
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jan 14, 2011 22:05:35 GMT
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Norm - my commute is all urban driving. Not sure why you seem to have a problem with that. Loads of people live in the city or the urban sprawl. Not everyone can afford a big place in the country. My point was simply that the guy who says "urban" mileage is irrelavent should be more accurate and say urban mileage is irrelevant to him. The UK is a predominantly urban society. If I lived any further out I really couldn't afford to run a Cadillac as a daily... Depending on where I'm working, I'm either four miles from work, 90% on dual carriageway, or four miles from work straight into town stop-start at 30mph. Either way, my engine won't get warm on my commute so I'm getting low MPG's, but I don't see that a hybrid would do much better, but would cost me twice as much in servicing and other repairs. I saw a really interesting thread somewhere a few years back on an electric hilux in america, but I'm not sure it's the way forward. Doesn't anyone know how to brew (?) ethanol or whatever it is they use in Brazil? It'd be a good petrol alternative?
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"A Pierburg carb? It would be more economical to replace it with a funnel..."
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Jan 14, 2011 23:31:33 GMT
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Nope - I stand by the comment that its irrelevant in town unless you spend all day behind the wheel. If your mileage is all urban you'll be doing naff-all miles unless you're a cabbie or courier. An hour a day you'd be lucky to do 15 miles, perhaps 20 miles. Doesn't really matter how bad the economy is when you're not going far. If your mileage is all out of town (ie you're driving a classic on driving roads, or you just live and work in the sticks, or you thump up and down the A1 in a retro barge) then you'll be covering many more miles. Now you will be covering ground, easily 60 miles in the hour, and it does matter. 10 miles each way at 20 mpg or 30 miles each way at 60 mpg, same difference. A hybrid - paying more money to get better mpg in town and less mpg out of town, makes sense for almost nobody. Unfortunately, the type of people stupid enough to buy a miserable little new car are too stupid to realise this. Hence the Prius. These two are genuinely cool: "Ok" economy in town where you do no miles and frickin' ridiculous economy out of town. Hybrids are for cabbies, couriers, and trendy stupid people. (Yes, I know that the Insight is a hybrid, but bollting a motor onto the flywheel to replace the starter and alternator in an otherwise simple manual naturally aspriated petrol engined car is an entirely different proposition to the Prius or Chevy Volt level of hybridisation) Now electric cars on the other hand... Nonsensensical out of town but ideal in town. Even better than hybrids, and pure electric doesn't force the same design compromises as hybrids, and is cheap. Also seriously fun to play with. (that X1 lunched a battery pack in 40 miles when Ian demoed it at work, but then again he also lunched the tyres it was wearing in 40 miles so not so impractical...) And a fully electric IVAed retro on 2011 plates, leaving 11s and a trail of EP90 through Notting Hill has a certain appeal... :-D
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-- Marko
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Jan 14, 2011 23:33:57 GMT
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Norm - my commute is all urban driving. Not sure why you seem to have a problem with that. Loads of people live in the city or the urban sprawl. Not everyone can afford a big place in the country. My point was simply that the guy who says "urban" mileage is irrelavent should be more accurate and say urban mileage is irrelevant to him. The UK is a predominantly urban society. If I lived any further out I really couldn't afford to run a Cadillac as a daily... I don't have a problem with rabbit warren inhabitants, except when they foist their lifestyle choices on everybody who isn't like them. Talk to people in upper and western NY state, who have to put up with the mindset of NYC governing them out in the boonies, where none of the urban transport laws make any sense. You cannot possibly think London-thought is applicable to some trucker in Redditch! This is why it makes sense to let you, Akku, make/buy/lease whatever you like, and same for anybody else, and not load it up with taxpayer incentives/rebates/punitive per gallon VATs or anything else. Just let the market work. When oil gets rare, it will self-price at its fitting market-appropriate price. Then electric/hybrid/peanut oil/lard/sawgrass burners will seek their market-appropriate price points in the consumer universe. None of this needs to be driven. The government made a mistake helping DeLorean and BMC (and ours with GM and Chrysler). They don't need to jump in like beavers and repeat past mistakes with E-this and Enviro-that. The basis of "the scientific grounding" for all these controllist policies has been called into serious question anyway. Not by ranters. But by fellow world climatologists.
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Tim
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,340
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Ace thread Jonny
I'd love a retro series hybrid. Makes sense. Good looks, limit over the top 'options' that add complexity and weight, shed loads of torque and really good MPG.
Can't see a loss - won't sound so good true, but that's only an issue if your going slow in town. On a hoon i've either got windows open or stereo on anyway (fairly subjective i will admit!). Believe it or not, we are fast running out of affordable fuel, so we need to do something. The controllist policies put in place by the oil companies make me sad when buying fuel, like an addict, so if I could get a retro fix whilst putting less in their coffers, I would be happy as larry :-)
Edited to add:
Also interesting to see where the likes of Williams and Porsche go with their flywheel systems. Doing some very smart things at the moment and in a performance environment rather than purely economy. Create an extra 200bhp without the need for a larger heavier, more difficult to package engine...plus you get a BOOST button. Who doesn't want one of those?!
Bringing KERS back into F1 this year will also speed up development of such systems
Might be a while before we can afford to start putting them in cortinas though :-)
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Last Edit: Jan 15, 2011 8:47:26 GMT by Tim
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c'mon guys lets keep this on topic not have another thread locked going off in pointless political rants, want to howl at the moon please take it elsewhere. You have a point AK...... same as everyone else, I too like the idea of renewable fuels and cheap motoring...... it's just that we keep hearing about it but there's no real impetus or substance from the government behind the BS cos they have too much to lose from the loss of tax/duty on oil products. Anyways..... for my pennance, here's a pic of the ultimate eco car.... the eco Challenger! I've got nothing against eco-cars..... so long as they look like this!
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Last Edit: Jan 15, 2011 8:32:11 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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tetleysid
Part of things
rockin reimo
Posts: 138
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I take the J leno approach, we should champion and promote modern cars and eco fuel systems BUT also preserve our classic/retro cars for fun usage. We have to face it sooner or later crude oil will dry up or cost too much for the average guy and then there is the pollution aspect to consider. The motor car has been around but a short space of time in the scheme of things and like everything has to evolve or become extinct.
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