adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,659
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Firstly apologies as the issue is on my other half's modern Peugeot 207 but the engine design is fairly retro in itself so I hope it's passable! To set the scene, it's a 2009 207, 1.4 8v petrol in 75bhp flavour. It blew a head gasket early last summer which was replaced twice after the replacement also failed (faulty new gasket apparently), timing belt and a new coil pack with plugs was done last year also. The issue it's got and has had for quite some time, is that when driving off from cold, when you change up a gear and go to accelerate again it hesitates or bogs down, almost as if you've gone from 2nd to 5th rather than 3rd, then it will slowly pick up again. Once it starts to get a bit of warmth in the engine it will pull the next gear fine after a gearchange. Obviously I'm not looking to rag the nuts off a cold engine but it's noticeable that something isn't quite right. Doesn't throw up any warning lights or fault codes. As a potential development or unrelated issue it actually misfired a little the other morning about 5-10 mins after starting driving from cold, but it cleared up as it got warm and it hasn't done it since. My initial thoughts were maybe the couple of hgf's last summer have affected the lambda sensors somehow? Or perhaps it's related to the MAP sensor? I realise it's shooting in the dark a bit but if anyone knows these engines intimately are there any particular common things I should be looking for? Is it just how they are? Should I throw some parts at it and see what happens?  Thanks in advance for any help  |
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ChasR
RR Helper
Long Time Rambler
Posts: 9,994
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Without driving the car, it's a little hard to see what you mean. Part of me wants to say gear linkages, as they can wear badly on the rod versions of Pugs.
Your issue sounds like fuelling, if it's not a gear selection issue. I would probably be looking at the CTS or Air inlet temp sensor. It may be worth unplugging some sensors, and seeing how it runs? Does the car sound funny when it loses power (i.e : does it sound like its lacking fuel etc.)
I'd say to do a diagnostic on Lexia, the official Pug diagnostic tool, where live data may yield some results, but I'm aware that almost no one has it. CG Cars in Leicester do, and the problem is something he may be familiar with. Regarding live data, it's something Snap On Solus may do, but it would take a friendly person to lend you theirs, and there's no guarantee it would read the car.
I have Carly, which may do live data on the car, if you want to try that out, but it's functionality is limited outside of BMWs, newer VAGs & Fords, & Renaults. But it may be worth the stab in the dark.
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,659
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Sorry to clarify a bit further, there's no issue with actually changing gear, it's a lack of response from the accelerator/engine as you go to accelerate after having selected the next gear.
I don't really recall it making a specific noise as such, I suppose it bogs down as if it had a lack of fuel, it's not juddery or anything like that. It's more of a delay where for a short amount of time after changing gear the accelerator is unresponsive, then it will suddenly pick up again.
I'll have to do bit of a test drive to see if it does it in gear as well or if it is just after gear changes.
There is a Peugeot specialist locally who did the head gasket(s) whether they have the full dealer diagnostic kit or not, I don't know though.
I was able to watch some of the live data (O2 sensor voltage, intake air pressure etc.) earlier while idling the car just through a cheapy obd reader and the Torque app, I'll give it a drive in the morning and keep an eye out to see if anything untoward happens
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When I saw 207 1.4 - my instant thought was HGF, but I see it's already done that a few times lol
Have you looked at the plugs & checked the gaps?
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Throttle body spotless? I would make sure that’s spotless, and have the adaptations reset with an appropriate scanner. Also has the valve timing been re-checked at all? With that much work having been carried out it’s entirely possible it isn’t set right I suppose.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,566
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Coolant temp sensor maybe?
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Coolant temp sensor maybe? Good shout, every 00's VW I have had needed one of those for this sort of issue |
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Not a great deal of experience personally, but a mate of mine has had a boatload of 106 GTis. Apparently they're really sensitive to coolant temp sensors going. Not sure if it's the same management system on the 206 but if it's a fuelling issue I'd look there first.
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,659
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Cheers guys, haha I forgot to mention the coolant temp sensor was one thing that replaced early on in our ownership after the gauge had a few instances of randomly pegging to hot when it clearly wasn't (we were very careful to ensure it wasn't actually overheating and it was a faulty sensor) I can't recall what brand sensor I fitted so there could be a chance that's playing up again.
I'll check the throttle body today, the spark plugs were new in the summer so I'd hope they're in decent condition, even with the couple of hgf's but if everything else checks out, I'll take a look. Also hopefully the valve timing is OK, once it's warm it seems to drive OK, it's pretty slow but it's probably about right for it's power and weight
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Coolant temp sensor for the gauge may be different from the one that does the ECU. And anyway new(ish) doesn’t always mean good.
Does sound like it may be coming off cold enrichment too soon.
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Coolant temp sensor for the gauge may be different from the one that does the ECU. And anyway new(ish) doesn’t always mean good. Does sound like it may be coming off cold enrichment too soon. 207 has one sensor that feeds the ECM and that relays the info via the BSI to the instruments. |
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,659
Club RR Member Number: 58
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If the data from the OBD can be believed, the coolant temp sensor seems to be operating as it should. I had a look at the throttle body, looked clean enough from the outside but a bit grotty on the other side, I've given it a bit of a clean as best I can, I've ordered a TB to manifold seal so when that arrives I'll take it off and give it a proper clean. I think it drives a bit better from cold now? Might just be a bit of a placebo effect, will report back if anything changes Oh and it hasn't misfired since the one morning when it did. I did notice that day that when I set off there was a water rushing sound for a bit and I could see water on the floor behind the car, I think one of the scuttle drains may be blocked. I parked facing the other way since and it's not done it again |
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Vacuum pipes all ok? Any sign of rough idle? Injectors atomising correctly? I rebuilt one for a friend last year, new rings & shells, head skim, 8 new valves, HG, thermostat, cambelt and water pump even after all that it's not the smoothest of engines, like you said already it's an ancient design.
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I do believe this is the engine my sis had in her hateful C3. Now I don't know if a 207 employs any type of engine cover, the C3 did not. The problem was when it rained, the bonnet mounted washer jets had no seal so water dripped through onto the coilpack. Some would seep past the rubber plug tubes and cause it to miss. As you say heat dries it out and it is then fine. Some mastic around the bottom of the washer jets and some dielectric grease on outside of spark plug tubes cured it, but if Citroen were less tight a plastic engine cover would have shielded it entirely!
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Last Edit: Jan 6, 2023 12:03:33 GMT by miniman31
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,659
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Drove the car first thing this morning, it's still doing it, it's only for like the first 5 gearchanges or so it did it before acting more normally, so it can't even barely be warming up really. I was right about one of the scuttle drains being plugged though so sorting that, although I think it's unrelated. Vacuum pipes all ok? Any sign of rough idle? Injectors atomising correctly? I rebuilt one for a friend last year, new rings & shells, head skim, 8 new valves, HG, thermostat, cambelt and water pump even after all that it's not the smoothest of engines, like you said already it's an ancient design. It seems to idle reasonably well? As you say it's not a particularly smooth engine, when I get the tb off for a proper clean I'll have a poke around any hoses I can see, I did wiggle the pcv hoses with the engine running and it didn't seem to make any difference. One curious thing I've noticed it's always done is burble a bit out of the exhaust if you rev it while stationary. I did have a bit of a search around and people seem to think it's what they all do, so certainly a the engines certainly seem a bit old school! I do believe this is the engine my sis had in her hateful C3. Now I don't know if a 207 employs any type of engine cover, the C3 did not. The problem was when it rained, the bonnet mounted washer jets had no seal so water dripped through onto the coilpack. Some would seep past the rubber plug tubes and cause it to miss. As you say heat dries it out and it is then fine. Some mastic around the bottom of the washer jets and some dielectric grease on outside of spark plug tubes cured it, but if Citroen were less tight a plastic engine cover would have shielded it entirely! That's interesting, there isn't an engine cover on the 207 either, I'm fairly sure it tends to do it in the wet or dry but I'll keep an eye out for that. I'm not quite at the point of calling it hateful yet but it's certainly not been my favourite car 😅 it's got a few issues but my gf likes it and we really doubled down on keeping it when the head gasket went so maybe if I fix enough things on it, it will start to repay me haha |
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D One curious thing I've noticed it's always done is burble a bit out of the exhaust if you rev it while stationary. I did have a bit of a search around and people seem to think it's what they all do, so certainly a the engines certainly seem a bit old school! My 205 with a TU3 used to pop & spit flames (apparently) on overrun, must be a quirk of the TU's |
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I do believe this is the engine my sis had in her hateful C3. Now I don't know if a 207 employs any type of engine cover, the C3 did not. The problem was when it rained, the bonnet mounted washer jets had no seal so water dripped through onto the coilpack. Some would seep past the rubber plug tubes and cause it to miss. As you say heat dries it out and it is then fine. Some mastic around the bottom of the washer jets and some dielectric grease on outside of spark plug tubes cured it, but if Citroen were less tight a plastic engine cover would have shielded it entirely! There was literally a recall for this to replace the fuel injectors and add a gasket to the windscreen washers. No 8V TU uses an engine cover and the 207 jets aren’t inline with the injectors to my recollection |
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The earlier ones used to fire all 4 plugs at once hence the burbling.
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steveg
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,545
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I've got a 106 and decided it would be a good idea to fit a K&N air filter onto it. This was fine while the weather was warm but as soon as it started to get cold it struggled.
I read somewhere you need to fit a bigger injector to compensate for all the extra air flow!
Not sure if it was this or just it wasn't getting any warm air from the exhaust manifold but it really felt like I had pushed the choke in too early.
With this in mind could you have an air leak somewhere?
My new 1.6 engine has a plastic manifold, they can crack apparently, it's also got a throttle body heater!
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,659
Club RR Member Number: 58
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May 19, 2023 18:45:05 GMT |
Been a while but thought I'd put a reply on this as I think we might have solved the issue. The car went into a garage for a couple of bits, and it was noted that not only was the exhaust backbox rattling, but the mounting flange for the cat converter had cracked pretty much all the way round. Got that sorted by an exhaust place, cut the cracked bit out and fabricated a new bit of pipe to connect the downpipe to the cat and it doesn't seem to do the hesitation when cold anymore. So maybe there was some exhaust leak that was affecting how the lambda sensor was reading and having an effect on how the car runs? Or it's because the weather has got warmer since January in any case, the 207 lives on for now |
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