scdan4
Part of things
Posts: 39
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Hello all. Long time lurker first time poster and all of that. I thought that I'd missed the boat on 205's as when i wasn't looking they became a 'proper classic' and started to cost more to buy than they were to insure. The ones left affordable to a pleb like me were 1.1's, or non turbo diesels but sensible and pretty though they are they're not soul stirring or aspirational. I nearly bought at least 3 different cooking model ones off of the beige forum over the years. Nearly. But if you say to someone "I've bought a peugeot 205" they will ask "GTi?" and I had a 1.4 one years ago so would want bigger than that which immediately made it too pricey for my pocket. This was fine, it wasn't a life changing ambition, just a consistent idle want. I had toys projects and distractions so merely filed it away in the capri 2.8 ship sailed category. As a mid life crisis (a.k.a. finally having just about enough money and time to do things that you've wanted to do for donkeys) project I've been looking for a cheap n cheerful doer upper track car. In budget potentials were things like suzuki swift sports, 106 / saxo. Small, light, revvy, front wheel drive nimble things to rag around in and improve and tune. Caged as I don't want small and light to equal life changing injury. There was a mk1 ibiza ex race car that looked great but was just too far away to consider. One mans misfortune can be another mans luck. Pssssst, wanna buy a track car project?  Delivered. It's only a bleeding 205!  And not just any old 205. It's a 1.9 Gti one with a V5 and a wodge of receipts/history and everything. Admittedly it's an abandoned project thats been stored in a hedge under a cat curse word tarp for some (5ish) years but that helps it fulfil the project part of the brief and makes it affordable. It's minging!    That's a bit better, already looking a bit more like a car rather than a wreck. Lift the fibreglass bonnet off and what does it look like?  Looks like a 16v mi16 engine. On bleeding throttle bodies.  That have been nibbled by the mice and are full of spiders. There's a distinct lack of brake lines anywhere and the master cylinder is visibly toast. Potentially fancy strut tops though. Good old henry hoover was deployed to knock the worst of it off but as the engines clearly coming out before anything else happens to it I'm sure I'll find plenty more spiders, mouse nests and chewed bits. Before that though, I'll need to empty it out and discover what else I have because currently its absolutely rammed full of stuff.   Completely kerplunk full. Valuable rare classic car spare parts or complete toot? Tune in next time to find out. |
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Last Edit: Jul 8, 2021 19:04:18 GMT by scdan4
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Looks like a perfect starting point...  |
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I had an mi16 powered one of these, was much more fun than the 1.6 gti I had a few years previous.
Looks a great buy.
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scdan4
Part of things
Posts: 39
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Thanks. I'm hoping that the 16v lump will make it a complete hoot to drive. Its likely going to be a dedicated track car never gracing the mot station again so I am going to try and make it as light as I reasonably can as I go which should make it a bit brisker well. I'd like it to end up at 800kg or less so it should get a wriggle on with 175ish* bhp pushing it along. A complete guess. What should a healthy tuned Mi16 engine reliably make? Had a good day today digging through the animal bedding and emptying out the car. Bits sorted of a fashion and safely put away for best / storage / losing. Out of 6 wheels only 2 held any air so got a pair of bald ones out of the tyre depots bin! Free, and good enough to roll it around on. The tyre date codes on the old ones were 1997 (3 digit DOT code) and 2002. Hmmm. How longs this been stood? I ask myself It took a while as nearly all packing material was shredded and bedded. A good few bits like this poor thing  Not much of a life for them. Anyway, unpacking revealed  Most of the body trim but not the lhs rear wheelarch trim. Grill, Ali G mirrors (yes!) 3 headlights, 2 fog lights, 4 indicators and all the little ally red trim, which apparently is hens teeth stuff. All good.  2 rear bumpers (+ one on car), spoiler, strut brace, chin spoiler, parcel shelf. Ok. clearly not just one car here then.  Most of but not all of a weld in roll cage. The one fitted in the car is a bolt in - assuming it's ok i can't imagine I'd change it out for a different cage. Everything else in shot is a duplicate of stuff on the car. Valuable spares. Toot taking up space for the next 10 years....  More toot. 4 big yogurt pots of loose, generally rusty completely mixed together fasteners. all tossed in together in the bottom of the bucket. Bah. They're still all in together so expect to have spent a fun few hours coming through that lot by the end of the build. Brand new fuel tank level sender. OMP steering wheel boss, and I think a pair of caliper hangers. Noice. New piston ring sets in boxes is a slight eyebrow raiser. (Why are they not in the engine?) The gnome stays, we've already bonded and he's looking forward to living his best life  More toot. Set of pistons look to have survived the damp but that camshaft has rusted all over. Cables are probably too tired to reuse, a stack of gussets that I assume belong with the weld in cage. all goodridge lines are screwed. Again, probably none of it up to much use. There was also a complete octopus of wiring with a toad alarm on it, a set of clocks, a set of numberplates in amongst the filth. Overall a pleasing haul, filed away tidy now (for a bit) in my workspace. Finished the visit hoovering out the inside of the car having completely emptied it. Success - I now feel like I am in a position to begin to make a start with it as I can now see what I've go. I best go and make a plan then. |
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There were two different mi16 engine, made of different materials.
I recall the output was 160 in standard form but you have the itbs.
You won't find too much weight to save unless you stick lexan in for the glass. Rear seats are nothing but you'll save a bit taking the fronts out and sticking a bucket seat in.
I had 306 gti-6 front calipers but they were very heavy. Maybe worth researching them.
You could get some team dynamics 1.2 wheels, light and not too pricey.
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Looks like you got a proper package there. Will keep you busy for a while, plus saves some hunting down of hard to find parts. Do you know who the ITBs are made by and what management its running. make sure to get a baffle plate kit and or sump spacer/extender to put into the sump, mi16s like to suffer from oil starvation when used hard on tracks. Baker BM make a lot of replacement parts for these that are impossible to find. Have used them a few times in the past
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scdan4
Part of things
Posts: 39
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There were two different mi16 engine, made of different materials. I recall the output was 160 in standard form but you have the itbs. You won't find too much weight to save unless you stick lexan in for the glass.... ... gti-6 front calipers but they were very heavy.....team dynamics 1.2 wheels, light and not too pricey. It's been fairly aggressively lightweighted already and has (cracked) plastic windows (a solved problem I'm led to believe, there should be some on the way later) but this is the exact thing I'm after doing, it will be fun seeing how much can be saved with light wheels, tyres?, seats, calipers etc. Take the light option each time and see how light it ends up. Hopefully as poised and nimble as a ballet shoe. 😁 |
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scdan4
Part of things
Posts: 39
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....... Do you know who the ITBs are made by and what management its running. make sure to get a baffle plate kit and or sump spacer/extender to put into the sump, mi16s like to suffer from oil starvation when used hard on tracks. Baker BM make a lot of replacement parts for these that are impossible to find. Have used them a few times in the past Thanks for the recommendation, I'm all new to peugeot so need to learn the best suppliers. I don't know any more details on the management yet other than there is one, that's for the next explore. I'd heard that they could be finicky about oil starvation on track. I'd like it as reliable as possible really. Currently thinking it will get a dry /remote sump. I've seen that people have done it, although I have no idea how difficult it is yet. |
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Wreckit
Part of things
MK1 1200 bandit, T120 Boneville, E39, NB MX5
Posts: 674
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have a look at the 205 they had on the living life fast channel on youtube, he got that set up and it runs strong with bodies, from memory i think he said it was around 230 bhp
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new workshop incoming
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An acquaintance of mine had a 205, with the the M16 engine fitted, used for sprints hillclimbs and trackdays, He lost two or three engines to my knowledge due to oil surge / starvation, Beware. Long sweeping bends, high revs and std oiling don't mix on this engine.
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I've bought some adapters and fitted porsche boxster 4 pot calipers to my golf. They are hugely lighter than stock. I've paired them with ferrodo ds200 or 250 pads and they work great.
My sparco seat is 7kgs vs 20 for the stock seat.
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Jul 12, 2021 10:50:26 GMT
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Looks like the base for a nice project! If you're new to 205's, there's a dedicated forum that's full of good info.
There's been all sorts of work done to try and reduce the oil starvation issues, most of it involving bolt-on parts from the 306 GTI-6. However, the root cause lies in the cylinder head and its tendency to accumulate oil due to poor drainage, so baffled / enlarged sumps are somewhat of a crutch.
If you fancy a bit of a challenge then the GTI-6 head is pretty much a straight swap, requiring only minor modifications and a bit of creativity - particularly with the timing belt covers. I've been out of the scene for a while so I don't know how many other people have tried it, but I did this donkeys years ago and had excellent results. You can also install the GTI-6 engine outright, but I imagine they're getting a bit thin on the ground now.
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scdan4
Part of things
Posts: 39
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Jul 24, 2021 17:14:16 GMT
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Looks like the base for a nice project! If you're new to 205's, there's a dedicated forum that's full of good info. go on then, please tell. Id like a look if I ever get 5 minutes. There's been all sorts of work done to try and reduce the oil starvation issues, most of it involving bolt-on parts from the 306 GTI-6. However, the root cause lies in the cylinder head and its tendency to accumulate oil due to poor drainage, so baffled / enlarged sumps are somewhat of a crutch. If you fancy a bit of a challenge then the GTI-6 head is pretty much a straight swap, requiring only minor modifications and a bit of creativity - particularly with the timing belt covers. I've been out of the scene for a while so I don't know how many other people have tried it, but I did this donkeys years ago and had excellent results. You can also install the GTI-6 engine outright, but I imagine they're getting a bit thin on the ground now. Is that poor drainage caused by the slightly jaunty angle that the engine ends up at having been wedged into the engine bay? It's really rammed in there.  That looks as if it will only drain down/out of the back of the head to me. Presumably the engine is meant to be flat with the oil draining front and back, so it only has half the drain capacity to sump. Prolonged high revs to pump a large volume of fluid up to the top, add a constant corner to pull the oil away from the pickup will result in it sucking on air. No bueno, Si boom. How do they lunch themselves? do they just spin a bearing or two and are rebuildable or are they a superfuse instant boat anchor? (Of course its the latter, everyone would have said else!) I also can't imagine that there are many gti-6 heads about now. I have no intention of being scared to use my track car it when done and the local track is castle coombe so it will see plenty of long fast corners. And if we continue to assume that I am going to rag the  off it because I want a track car to use then everyone seems to say that it will eventually go pop. With the pool of remaining good engines dwindling rapidly (I believe the 2 donors are 405 mi16 or bx gti which are both hens teeth cars now. I can't remember when I last saw one) it would probably be as well to put another similar but much more available engine in. 206gti 180's are still pretty numerous and surely something like that could be made to work well. Thing is, if we're doing that it might be better to do it before blowing up the increasingly valuable old one. And before we make the car pretty with new paint and stuff. Plenty of food for thought there. |
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scdan4
Part of things
Posts: 39
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Jul 24, 2021 18:18:43 GMT
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Finally managed to get some time to go and prod the car without being in the way. It's living inside at work hiding under an invisibility cloak in an "I do not exist" type way  Where it is lovely and warm and dry and clean, but not the most accessible as I can't go there when people are working as I'll be right in the way. It should be out of there into a more workshop style unit by October, but counted chickens and all that. It's completely dry and increasingly clean and a lot more pleasant to be working on. Every time I take something off for the first time I have to hoover up snails and cobwebs, but there is a dwindling amount of fust and countryside hiding in it. Its got (standalone?) engine management  The only name i can find near the injectors and throttles is on the inlet manifold  According to the man I bought it from, the man who he ought if from said the man who he had bought it from (you following?) had just had a load of engine work done. He'd tracked it for a bit then had set about 'improving' it. Car was all done and on way back from bodyshop when life overtook and it never got reassembled. Whilst it sounds a bit like apocraphal sales blather there are 3 or 4 of these over the engine and head, all of which to my eye seem to say they've never even been warm, never mind hot.  Which adds some credence to the tale. There's a snazzy genuine carbon fibre dash  The bolt in roll cage has OMP stickers on it and looks the part  But the car is suffering from having been parked in a hedge for a couple of years, worst down the drivers side, which also has the most snails and detritus as it was the side furthest in the hedge.  It's currently got zero brakes and rolls well, so a functional handbrake is a bit of a priority. What's on there looks unappealing  And Supertom (the mechanic neighbour) says "those peugeot calipers are curse word, always seizing. Golf mk 4 calipers fit, i think, handbrakes and all. Get some of them. So I got the finest pair from our favourite maxspeedingrods completely forgetting the existence of caliper carriers. At least, I'm assuming thats the problem because currently they are not 'just bolt on'..  The hole centres for the caliper bracket to hub mounting are 8cm apart. Has anyone got a golf mk 4 one they can measure for me? The rest of todays session was spent stabbing rust. Supertom kindly lent me his new tidy rust stabbing toy to which you connect an airline and a vaccuum henry and can paint and rust strip in a most tidy and clean way.  It was put to good use around the back righthand corner, starting there because it was nearest.  Having been Looking about and prodding here and there, oddly enough the 30 year old car that's been parked in a hedge for a while is quite rusty. Not quite sure what I expected really, but none of it looks major, just a fairly large number of little bits. I have a welder and some basic welding skills so first on the agenda is to do all the rust and welding and get a solid shell (and the handbrake). |
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fredje8v
Part of things
96 Daihatsu Atrai
Posts: 186
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Kms is a dutch company, they do offer stand alone management. They also build (motorsport) engines www.vankronenburg.nl/ |
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its the head design that causes the oil issues.
rear calipers only need refreshing, those aluminium golf ones are more well known than the Peugeot for seizing up!
omp cage isnt the best, more of a bare minimum.
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Jul 31, 2021 11:12:48 GMT
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What he said ^^
Have a Google search for Mi16 oil surge and you'll find a tonne of threads!
The root cause of oil starvation in these engines is poorly designed oil drainage in the head and a large capacity for oil to accumulate there. It's compounded by high-mileage engines with reduced oil pressure, and conditions (i.e. track use) that they were never designed for.
You stand your best chance at reducing the risk by making sure your bearing clearances and oil pump are good (rebuild the engine) and installing a baffled sump, but it will always be lurking..
PS - whoever installed that cage didn't do it properly - while you're sorting the rust it'd be a good idea to get someone to fully weld those front footplates!
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scdan4
Part of things
Posts: 39
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Have a Google search for Mi16 oil surge and you'll find a tonne of threads! You are not wrong. Trapdoor sump with spacer to increase capacity seems to be the consensus. I'll make sure it has that and add a big low oil pressure light. It'll be fine I'm sure. Can't be scared to use the thing. PS - whoever installed that cage didn't do it properly - while you're sorting the rust it'd be a good idea to get someone to fully weld those front footplates! They really didn't do a very good job did they. Those front feet are not only not well welded they're also in the wrong place. Whether they are designed for a raised box shaped lands (which are not there) or whether whoever fitted it just measured wrong and trimmed the legs a bit short I don't know, but they are short so the whole cage is on the wonk. The front legs are too short and the whole cage iss rotated around on the b pillar seat belt attachment points. The bar above the screen is dropped low into the car, so it doesn't meet it's attachment points and it's not as close to the a pillar as it should be either. Rear fixings just about reach, but are beyond max adjustment and 'gappy'. Nasty. Thing is, it's the same on both sides.   so it's like they meant to do it like that, but the result looks like  And it's not as if they didn't build lands, as there are some at the bottom of the b posts  They're utterly terrible and look as if they were done with a battery powered stick welder but they're there so the installer clearly knew they existed. A puzzler how someone got it so wrong. Now we've worked out what is wrong it should be fairly easy to chop out the bad bits and sort it so the cage sits neatly and snugly. Certainly can't live with it like that! |
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scdan4
Part of things
Posts: 39
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I've spoken to the previous owner a bit more and he's worked out that the cars been stood for 11 years. Nice. Having cleaned it to a point where it's not genuinely horrible to touch I've started bashing holes. It's got a few crispy bits, mostly the drivers side and boot floor.  Getting the fuel tank out was a bit of a giggle. It looks sketchy as hell but was pretty solid. Getting it up into that position was less reassuring. I'll borrow the ramp to put it back in. The tank needs to be out to address this mess   Happily the tank was bone dry and smelt clean. The narrative is the car was being rebuilt having just come back from the paint sprayers when the project was abandoned - this would add weight that story. And a tank full of air is so much nicer than a tank full of rancid stale fuel, as any fool know. There is also the rot in the drivers footwell in the photo above, and lots of sundry little bits where there's localised rot. Lots of welding then. I can't really weld, yet. I'm learning, sorta. In lockdown 1 last year I bought myself this little inverter welder  and have been doing a few things since. One patch on the wifes old merc. some 'art' for practice. Repaired an exhaust. ... Think that's about it. So I'm learning and sharing my learning if you'll bear with me, this is not going to be norman quality restowork but learning to weld is one of the reasons I wanted a project so i'll do it, and it needs be do it again until it's done. learning innum - have a go and don't be afraid to make mistakes. My first attempt was poor enough to cut out and bin. I removed the (remarkably stubborn) peugeot paint and underseal with a flap disk which thinned the good metal I was trying to join to. My repair patch was 'near enough' rather than 'pretty good' and didn't fit the hole that well all the way round. I was dissappointed by this so went and bought an new angry grinder  which has a disc release powered by a common 6mm hex key. Game. Changer. What times we live in. The second attempt saw me take it a good bit slower, use a wire cup on angry grinder to remove all rather than some of the paint and make the patch fit the hole a whole lot better.   Tacked it in then just kept building up the tacks on top of/next to each other, moving the torch around and going slow to keep the heat down. I needed to add a little bit to the patch, which I ended up doing first, then did the big one. The right hand side of the boot floor is pretty much toast so it's going to end up mostly patch. Good practice on an easily replaced part. Hopefully. next I moved into the centre and made a patch that I dropped in over the top and welded in. The hydrate80 made it difficult to start the weld / strike the arc to start with but quickly burnt off so I guess that would count as weld thru?.   Thats up to date and I'm pleased with my work. It needs grinding back and smoothing down and such but I can honestly say that I have made up repair panels that fit and successfully stitched them into my car. I'm pleased with that. Which is lucky, as it looks as if there's a good bit more of it to do. |
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make sure you get it flat before welding the sills, there's a fair bit of stiffness lost there especially if the spot weld at the bottom of the B pillar has come away.
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