vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,079
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Pre-war Bitsa IDvulgalour
@vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member 146
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Apr 14, 2020 17:58:02 GMT
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Other half and I have been on a long-term search to acquire something pre-war, or at the very least, an old-fashioned mid-fifties something like the old Somerset. We've done the legwork narrowing down what sort of vehicle we want to acquire, missed out on a few due to bad timing, and now a new idea has popped up that might give us a more entertaining route than just purchasing a car that's ready to use.
Over the last year or so we've been finding more listings for chassis, rolling chassis, and bodyshells and while we originally wanted to buy a saloon car, we also realised that we wouldn't mind a pick-up truck. This in turn got us thinking about all those listings for bits of old pre-war cars and how we might combine what we find to build a single vehicle. We don't want to build a kit car in the traditional sense and we don't want to build something that pushes us down the SVA/IVA route since we're looking at literally putting an original old car back together with original parts rather than building something new and modernised.
For example, we acquire as complete a rolling chassis as possible for something pre-war. Presumably this would give us the ID, and even if it came with no papers I assume there's some way we can apply to get the car identified and at the very least put on an age related plate. Then, we collect the various body panels and interior fittings to build a complete vehicle. At the end of it we have a vehicle built totally from parts as old as the car is, just not necessarily all from the original chassis ID, rather like replacing a rotten body panel just on a much more involved scale.
Obviously this is more time consuming and less cost effective than simply buying a complete vehicle and we'd have to choose the right chassis to being with to make sure we could even get the parts to build up the rest of the vehicle. We're also aware we can only really do this with a car that uses a separate chassis. But are we missing something legally with this? If you build a car in this way does it need to be inspected (beyond an MoT sort of inspection to check roadworthiness) before being returned to the road?
We haven't bought anything yet just in case it can't be done this way. We originally looked at acquiring a saloon but realised we'd be equally happy with a pick-up so we wondered if building a bitsa pick-up on a saloon chassis would be okay too.
We do know it's a big job to make a car this way and not a cost effective one either. We're not looking to make money nor are we in a rush, we just want to do it right and not get caught out by incorrect assumptions.
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Apr 14, 2020 21:23:29 GMT
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It is possible to register a vehicle built from parts over 25 years old but they must be original spec and confirmed as representive of the original vehicle by the owners club, it's a lot easier if you can find something with a V5.
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Apr 14, 2020 22:14:24 GMT
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it's a lot easier if you can find something with a V5. Strongly recommend this. The DVLA were being funny (& not in the 'ha ha' sense sadly) the other year about registering prewar cars that were missing bodywork. For some reason, an apparatchik there had decided randomly that the bodywork constituted part of the ID (despite all previous law, regs etc etc having always applied the ID to the chassis of separate chassis vehicles as per the 8 point regs) & last I heard, they hadn't seen sense & reverted to the previous and long standing status quo. Hopefully it has now been resolved, but research carefully! |
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Pre-war Bitsa IDDeleted
@Deleted
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Fully appreciate where you want to go on this but I'll play a slight backhand of devils advocate if you don't mind - I've seen / viewed / witnessed & heard of many builds on this format - disappointingly despite the excellent original intentions of the enthusiastic builders very few of them have ever got completed - they normally end up has a unfinished / uncompleted project due a mountain of problems and of the ones that do get completed many are not that practical to use or have any with fun with - granted you can take a lot of pleasure in just building something regardless of how impractical it is - On the other foot and down a slightly different path why not look at the option of purchasing a pre war oily rag car - these are now far more acceptable in some classic retro circles than the shiny trailer queens & multiple concours winners - with oily rag motors drawing far more attention - there is always something to do / tinker with and can be immense fun - if you know where to look you don't have to pay a fortune for one either (I may well be able to put you in touch with a suitable candidate - but that is not the reason for my post) - Even me with access to a full workshop of kit / book full of useful contacts and strong knowledge of finding the right bits at sensible money would think twice before taking a project like this on - Just to prove the point I already own a bitsa - have done for over 10 years - its all still a collection / pile of bits and 10 years on I'm still finding every reason for not commencing work on it (but that could just be me)  |
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Last Edit: Apr 15, 2020 8:05:55 GMT by Deleted
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Apr 15, 2020 10:59:57 GMT
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Don't people do this with Austin 7's? Get a chassis, build a custom body stick an engine in. This great chap attends some local meets this is a collection of bits, even has some Rolls Royce stuff on it. vintageman.zenfolio.com/p1050792470/h1691297#hadd7a3I am told the Bently Hillclimb lads don't like it as its quite quick He also has an Austin 7 with a plane fuel tank as the rear of the body This is sometimes the only way you can afford a 20's or 30's vehicle |
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It will come in handy even if you never use it
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Apr 15, 2020 11:00:41 GMT
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Its also been in Rekey Blinders and a few other TV things
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It will come in handy even if you never use it
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Pre-war Bitsa IDDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Apr 15, 2020 11:21:27 GMT
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The current situation is a vehicle has to be ‘complete’ to be registered, and if you have no dating evidence (I.e. an existing paper trail, from any country) you have to get a club to sign off on what it is as well.
That does not mean 12 points complete, like a stock rolling chassis, it means complete with bodywork etc. And looking like it ‘could’ work as a complete car. It doesn’t have to actually run though, just have nothing major obviously missing.
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Different clubs work to different levels of what is ‘complete’, but anything with missing/broke glass, missing/broken lights or no bonnet will get knocked back by the DVLA irrespective of what any club or inspector says. Oddly fenderless is absolutely fine, although I’m not sure what they’d say if only 1 fender was missing as opposed to all of them.
Strictly speaking all parts should be from the same model year or earlier to get a date of that year, any later parts make the vehicle later. It’s meant to be down to the age of the newest part. All parts are also meant to come from the same marque (although they haven’t explicitly stated the same model 😉)
The 8 point rule doesn’t apply to fresh registrations, working to the letter you can actually only register 100% standard vehicles as VHIs. So an unregistered pre-war car with an engine swap is legally, working to the letter, unregisterable. It doesn’t mean you can’t get them through but it’s down to if the club representative is willing to sign off on it, or you have your own dating evidence and can rely on the ignorance/inexperience of an inspector for the rest.
What most people end up doing to get stuff registered is get it looking presentable as a totally stock vehicle then modify afterwards. Obviously a lot of people are doing this to ‘work around’ the rules and do stuff they shouldn’t be, but it’s easily possible to get caught up in such issues making fairly innocent changes.
For example, fitting series Land Rover steering boxes to model A fords is quite popular as a safety modification as they’re a better internal design with less slop, and fit with almost no modifications to other parts, but if you did that before registration you technically make the vehicle unregisterable as it is a non-ford part, and even if they did let it though or you fitted an f100 steering box (again very popular), that would make a 1930s car a 1960s one in the eyes of the DVLA. But for a totally knackered model A one with 2 inches of play in it and that’s fine.
It’s much, much easier if you get something that already has an identity, as you can then work within the 8 point rule and the bodywork and that is totally irrelevant.
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Last Edit: Apr 15, 2020 11:26:07 GMT by Dez
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,079
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Pre-war Bitsa IDvulgalour
@vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member 146
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Apr 15, 2020 12:29:07 GMT
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Now I understand why the cars with no papers and rolling chassis type listings are generally so cheap and up for so long. If we had more experience with these vehicles and how they go together this sort of build might be more feasible, as it is I suspect it's better to go back to plan A which was to find a tatty example with paperwork. We definitely don't want something shiny and finished because that defeats the point of the project. Thank you, particularly Dez and @grumpynorthener, for the insight into the pitfalls of registration which could undo all the hard work of building a vehicle in the first place. I'm very glad I made the post before buying something now, that could have been a very frustrating purchase if I hadn't. |
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Last Edit: Apr 15, 2020 12:29:25 GMT by vulgalour
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Apr 16, 2020 14:50:11 GMT
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I've got a feeling, and I've done no research on this at all, so it could all be rubbish, but I seem to remember that commercial vehicles (ie pick ups) have a different IVA test to cars. Might be worth looking into?
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim
1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started.
1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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Apr 17, 2020 10:55:27 GMT
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I would have chat with a club and see how they date them, I doubt many have matching numbers as lots of bits never matched numbers at assembly and many bits had no numbers.
Our 1964 series 2A has a later gearbox and a Mercedes engine, newer whole front end really but it retains the Historic vehicle status as this was common practice and was period conversion. Some one in the past has just fitted what they had to keep it mobile. Its worth chatting to a few people who have built them to see how they did it.
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It will come in handy even if you never use it
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Apr 17, 2020 13:51:12 GMT
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Dez is on the money for getting a registration. Much easier to start with a V5. The process for a body swap seems to be subject to mobile goalposts as well. I did mine without the original body, now you have to show it in your photos. Here's mine for inspiration/ridicule (delete as appropriate).  Based on a 1948 Standard 12 with tuned sidevalve. |
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-(
2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap
V8 Humber Hawk
1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD
1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Apr 17, 2020 17:17:54 GMT
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I’ve often thought about doing something similar, as used to go round the bigger autojumbles theoretically building specials from the parts on sale, although ID didn’t enter into it
Years ago I had a stolen recovered SD1 on a Q plate, this was very easy, the inspector had to be encouraged to actually look at the car, sight of it sat in the garage through the open door seemed to be enough for him, those were the days!
I haven’t done anything similar since, I guess a Q plate is now more grief than it’s worth?
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Pre-war Bitsa IDDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Apr 17, 2020 17:39:10 GMT
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Just to clarify on the rebody stuff, the rules for rebodying a vehicle with a pre-existing ID are currently totally different to processing one as a new registration. Same goes with engine swaps really.
The current DVLA stance is for a VHI be processed as a new registration and given the according paperwork, they want it to be TOTALLY standard. Obviously you can get a few things through but they have already knocked back various ‘special bodied’ stuff I know of as non-standard, even though they score a full 12 points mechanically. Think model A speedsters and the like.
If you start with an existing ID you have a LOT more leeway. You only have to have 8 points so it can have a different engine&box, the bodywork is irrelevant and the v5 will be amended with a change of body style after a rudimentary inspection.
As usual with the DVLA its a case of contradictory rules, and even double standards really.
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