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Dec 17, 2022 21:29:22 GMT
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Hi, I've been lurking for a while and enjoying your progress. Our 1500 Herald has had vapour lock for the first time this summer as well, I think the petrol is getting increasingly carp.
Over winter I'm going to be adding an electric cooling fan with manual over-ride switch and some heatwrap on the manifold. We already had an electric pump close to the tank which is supposed to help prevent vapour lock.
I doubt carb spacers will work with K&N filters and the stock engine shields but can I ask where you got them from?
Thanks, Chris
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Dec 18, 2022 11:23:58 GMT
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"I think the petrol is getting increasingly carp."
If you are using E5 or E10 then it's 5% or 10% Ethanol...
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Dec 18, 2022 12:55:44 GMT
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Modern E5 / E10 does indeed contain ethanol (though often much less than those percentages). Although ethanol is not especially volatile itself it does somehow make other components of the fuel more keen to escape. Bottom line - current fuels have higher vapour pressures than fuel in the past which means they vapourise more easily.
This isn’t usually too much of a problem on injected cars (there are exceptions!) but it certainly can be on older carb’d stuff.
For the fuel to boil takes a combination of heat and low pressure. A bit of turbulence helps too. So as you can probably imagine, a mechanical fuel pump bolted to a hot block with the lowest pressure in the fuel system right by its inlet valve, is a prime spot. Surprisingly, a pump with its valves in great shape is actually able shift a bit of vapour so may actually mostly cope. Most don’t though. The giveaway that this is the source of the problem is that dumping cool water over the pump will get you going again.
I’ve certainly come across the problem a fair few times over the years on Triumphs, both my own and others. Total stoppages have always been caused by vapourisation in the pump. The Vitesse was completely cured by fitting fuel injection. A fairly extreme solution. However, as it keeps running even in 35C traffic jams (Nice traffic on a Friday afternoon is not at all nice) I consider it fully tested for European conditions at least. My GT6 though does not (yet) have injection and they are fairly notorious for the issue. Therefore when I built mine up I was careful to route the fuel lines away from heat sources and I used a Huco electric pump. Seems to have worked for UK conditions. No issues even in this years warm summer, though I admit it’s not been tested in Nice yet.
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Dec 19, 2022 17:00:45 GMT
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It's not just about the ethanol. Petrol is a complex mix of hydrocarbons and yes there are british standards for fuel but I suspect more compromises are being made that modern engines can generally cope with.
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Got a new late 1500 pump from rimmer which was a bonus (it's listed under mg, hope it's right!) and longer studs so I'll be plugging that in today.
Also found the source of the front lights issue, a connector block that was in a heat drink wrap had water in it somehow. Is from the previous owner, not their fault though as it looked tidy. Hate those big multi connector blocks, always give me trouble. Did individual connectors and all is well.
The heavy vibration fron the rear at 60mph+ isn't solved yet. I alternate between thinking it is UJs, then prop shaft out of balance, then wheels. UJs are all new, bearings all new. The prop shaft is the same one it had before (and no issues previously), weights all look normal. First check then is the wheel balance.
Might even be ready for the spring at this rate!
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Hi, I've been lurking for a while and enjoying your progress. Our 1500 Herald has had vapour lock for the first time this summer as well, I think the petrol is getting increasingly carp. Over winter I'm going to be adding an electric cooling fan with manual over-ride switch and some heatwrap on the manifold. We already had an electric pump close to the tank which is supposed to help prevent vapour lock. I doubt carb spacers will work with K&N filters and the stock engine shields but can I ask where you got them from? Thanks, Chris Hey Chris! I've got dual electric fans with override switch fitted, definitely helps massively with overheating management. Wasn't quite enough to solve my vapor challenges though! Spacers came from ebay, they're just like these jobbies (these are mg but they'd work) www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225005484768?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=TLoToYS5Qfy&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=OvonWfsxQ8i&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPYCheers Jim |
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Modern E5 / E10 does indeed contain ethanol (though often much less than those percentages). Although ethanol is not especially volatile itself it does somehow make other components of the fuel more keen to escape. Bottom line - current fuels have higher vapour pressures than fuel in the past which means they vapourise more easily. This isn’t usually too much of a problem on injected cars (there are exceptions!) but it certainly can be on older carb’d stuff. For the fuel to boil takes a combination of heat and low pressure. A bit of turbulence helps too. So as you can probably imagine, a mechanical fuel pump bolted to a hot block with the lowest pressure in the fuel system right by its inlet valve, is a prime spot. Surprisingly, a pump with its valves in great shape is actually able shift a bit of vapour so may actually mostly cope. Most don’t though. The giveaway that this is the source of the problem is that dumping cool water over the pump will get you going again. I’ve certainly come across the problem a fair few times over the years on Triumphs, both my own and others. Total stoppages have always been caused by vapourisation in the pump. The Vitesse was completely cured by fitting fuel injection. A fairly extreme solution. However, as it keeps running even in 35C traffic jams (Nice traffic on a Friday afternoon is not at all nice) I consider it fully tested for European conditions at least. My GT6 though does not (yet) have injection and they are fairly notorious for the issue. Therefore when I built mine up I was careful to route the fuel lines away from heat sources and I used a Huco electric pump. Seems to have worked for UK conditions. No issues even in this years warm summer, though I admit it’s not been tested in Nice yet. Always admired your injected vitesse, looks like a complex job to do. One for the list another winter! Cheers for thd info, didn't know the trick to pour water on thd pump. Noted! |
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Rear end vibrations on a small chassis Triumph are very often due to the propshaft. IIRC, your previously non-vibrating prop has had new UJs fitted and may even have had the strap drive apart? If that’s true, the chances of it being non-vibrating now are slim.
You could prop it securely on axle stands, remove the wheels and brake drums (last is option but I prefer) and then run it up through the gears. If the vibration is gone, it’s most likely the wheels need balancing. If still there (and likely worse due to the driveline being unloaded) then most likely the prop as the driveshafts are too light and slow-running to cause much shake. It is sometimes possible to balance the prop by hanging jubilee clips on it. A time -consuming trial-and-error process which can be very effective.
With the driveline running at low speed (idling in top gear) you can watch each rear hub. Should be just spinning without wiggling around. If wiggling around then the shaft is bent, which is more common than you might hope, though rarely the cause of vibration unless very bent.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Jan 29, 2023 10:50:15 GMT
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Rear end vibrations on a small chassis Triumph are very often due to the propshaft. IIRC, your previously non-vibrating prop has had new UJs fitted and may even have had the strap drive apart? If that’s true, the chances of it being non-vibrating now are slim. You could prop it securely on axle stands, remove the wheels and brake drums (last is option but I prefer) and then run it up through the gears. If the vibration is gone, it’s most likely the wheels need balancing. If still there (and likely worse due to the driveline being unloaded) then most likely the prop as the driveshafts are too light and slow-running to cause much shake. It is sometimes possible to balance the prop by hanging jubilee clips on it. A time -consuming trial-and-error process which can be very effective. With the driveline running at low speed (idling in top gear) you can watch each rear hub. Should be just spinning without wiggling around. If wiggling around then the shaft is bent, which is more common than you might hope, though rarely the cause of vibration unless very bent. Nick Yeah I had the strap apart, a different diff put in, new ujs, so you're probably right. I was hoping it'd be wheels as they're a quick solve. I'll get it up on stilts then and do the jubilee trick - I added jubilees already but was doing the testing with drives which made it take ages. Got things a little better but still not solved. Up on chocks it is then! Cheers |
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Jan 30, 2023 18:09:47 GMT
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The exhaust is fitted, kept the 421 manifold (2") going into a vitesse mid section then have just whacked on a motorbike muffler (also 2"). I'd say it's less bodge than both previous attempts, and quieter than the side exit which is a result. Also more flush with the chassis than the side exit was, so should have some clearance. Trimmed the mid section a touch so it gave room for the muffler and slightly modified the hanger on the diff. The rear of the car is so low and don't want anything below the bottom of the wheel well, so I've used the bike muffler which ends just after the diff rather than going out the back of the car. It'll run fine for now but next step is to get the proper bends to route it around the wheel well. Current setup should be fine for the summer and make dirty noises, once it's back in the garage for winter I'll make it less bodge-tastic.  
 
Was a much more pleasurable experience than last time so that's something.
Fired it up and it was breaking up past 2k revs, then eventually didn't run at all. Balls. Took off fuel pot lids and no fuel in front pot and just a little in the rear.
The only thing I've changed is adding the fuel pressure regulator and the fuel pressure gauge. Took them off, blew through the reg and loads of bits popped out. Suspect they were in there when I fitted it, I didn't blow through it before I fitted it.
Turns out putting cheap ebay trinkets just makes things worse, so I've just gone back to how it was. The fuel pressure gauge works so I've kept that so I can check in the future. Before taking it off, it showed the pressure to be at 3.5psi which is a touch high but if it runs then s0d it.
It's back on the ground and ready for a proper test run, hoping to give it a go in the next day or 2! Next post will likely be me on the side of the road swearing again.
Deciding if the herald will make it the 40 min drive to Ace cafe on Tuesday for a classics meet, if I'm feeling brave then I'll take it. Metro if not. No reason it shouldn't make it fine, is just untested. We shall see!
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Good progress on the old dirt box. Replaced some fuel hose that was cracking, perfect example of when 'ethanol safe' hose sold on ebay is actually just garbage. Replaced with some proper hose from a proper store.    Finally got the proper fuel pump from a late 1500 with the curved arm which can work with a big spacer to reduce the vaporisation issue I'd had when stuck in bad traffic. All running well which is also good news. True test will be a long traffic jam so let's wait and see.  Leaving the old boy sat for 3 months had led to a sticky throttle, causing high rpm and all types of chaos. Replaced with a new shiny cable and its all back to normal. The lights also now work, added new wiring and a fuse block for them too (no fuses as standard I believe).  Went for a test ride and turned then on and off a bunch of times, at one point I lost all electrical power entirely. Pulling over and opening the bonnet was enough for it to work again so probably a bad earth somewhere in the lighting system - I'll add a fresh earth or 2, should solve it. Last job then is the vibration over 55mph (as has been previously suggested, likely the prop out of balance after I took it off and replaced diff). A job for the next few weeks. Generally running better than it has for a long time and I'm using it at least weekly so that's good!  |
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Got the old dog out to a couple of events, Pistonheads at Mercedes Benz World and PetrolHedonism Underground, both good fun. Pistonheads was relaxed, bonus being the car was in an Adam C video leaving the event (here , and hard up garage . I'm a narcissist so was very pleased. I even cleaned the interior, first time ever potentially.     Next up was Petrol Hedonism where the car was on the Auto Anonymous stand, except I was 3 hours late due to running out of fuel because I'm a m0r0n. So the car ended up sat with some very nice, very clean shiny cars. Cool event though, some great cars there.   The old boy did decide to break down on the way home though. Lots of fiddling on the side of the road and eventually made it back with a crawl. Finally opened up the carbs (wasn't getting fuel, lean despite jets wide open). Found this sh*te in the fuel pot. What the h*ll is it?? I have a filter in line just before the carbs - is it from the filter? From running the car down to the bottom of the tank maybe? I fitted the new pump, is it crud from that? Bottom of the fuel pot - about 5 pieces of this, looks like some sort of paper/coating:   |
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Harold has been sitting under a cover while I figure out what to do with him, the rough running issue driving me mad. New coil, ht leads, plugs, vacuum pump (old one was bent), re-did timing and fueling. No luck, still cutting out at 2k despite being rich. I'd previously cleared out the jets due to that crud in the line, but went hail Mary and bought new jets. Don't really enjoy this job, they're fiddly, but worth a shot. And he lives! Did the timing, fuel carb balance etc all over again. Should have just bl00dy changed the jets the first time! The is my 3rd set of jets in 5 years, didn't realise they are basically a consumable (suspect they aren't).   Had an excited plan to go for a drive but the battery is munted from weeks of just idling. Citi golf to the rescue for jump starts! Actually that didn't work, battery too dead, so on charge it went instead. First drive will have to wait. If all goes well then I'll be just in time for the local classic car show next week.  |
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Aug 18, 2023 20:22:39 GMT
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Took the old boy to the pistonheads 25th anniversary event which I thought was great fun. Was in the readers cars section along with some much prettier machinery. 2 minutes into the journey I went over a speed bump not calculating that I had my friend in the car. Those extra kg just tipped it into exhaust scraping territory. We abandoned that route but the damage was done and the exhaust was dragging on the bumps on the motorway within about 1 minutes. Still refusing to raise it. I want it lower if anything! Brought a boot full of tools (also probably didn't help with the height...) and we did a repair in an industrial estate off the M40.   All it needed was a big jubilee clip and the bodge was done! Made it to the show with 5 mins to spare.          On the way back the route to exit was on a nasty gravel track thing that, you guessed it, took the exhaust off in 2 places this time (the downpipe join and the previous bodge). There I am in the gravel in the heavy rain again while everyone drives past me on the exit.   Fixed again and off we go. Then I get all types of rough running, sputtering from the carbs. Only running on full choke, the same issue I had before I changed the jets. We pulled over twice with a dead engine, but it miraculously self healed and we blasted the last 15 miles no drama! Must have been more grott in the fuel system that cleared itself. One for another day, I'm sick of it. He's parked up, I'll tackle the rotter later. |
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Aug 18, 2023 20:25:46 GMT
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A nice pic someone took of Harold and shared with me.  |
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Aug 18, 2023 20:27:35 GMT
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And before anyone says it, I was gutted to miss the RR show on the Sunday but I had airport collection duties and children I couldn't leave - looked awesome. Next time!
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It's time for the herald to move on to a new owner who will put the time into the car that I simply don't have time for (too many kids, another project). I'm listing on RR for a while first as I'd love it to stay in this forum somehow. Let's see if there is any interest though! Feel free to DM me, listing on RR is, here forum.retro-rides.org/thread/226875/1969-triumph-herald-saloon-hertfordshireThanks! |
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May 12, 2024 16:25:46 GMT
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Got the old boy running well finally, just needed fresh plugs. Full reset of carbs and timing also seem to have helped, no longer dirty rich. Going to take it to Bedford for a show next week, its first long run for 8 months! Sad to be selling now that it runs but there we go. Just listed on ebay for sale, also listed here if interested!   |
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