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Nov 18, 2017 11:48:29 GMT
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With the diesel engine finding more opposition (in the UK at least) in recent months, along with a noticeable increase in the price at the pump I find myself pondering where the owners of diesel engined vehicles will find themselves in the next 12 months or more.
With this years budget just around the corner, one has to focus attention on the talk surrounding scrappage deals on older diesel vehicles, raising of vehicle excise rates on diesel vehicles, and even an increase in fuel duty, and wonder just how likely it is these threats will actually materialise.
There's lots of conflicting research to suggest that once again it's the motorist copping it as an easy target, and that there are lots of other -less easily regulated- sources of particulate emissions doing as much damage, along with plenty more to tell us all that anything other than an electric car is killing us.
Interestingly, I understand that the Australian Government has recently come up with a scheme to encourage motorists that diesel engines are a more environmentally friendly option.
The Government's willingness to make rapid U turns on other matters suggests that we may not see any sort of major revolution, but with what attention I do pay to politics, I'm certain enough in my view that I don't trust them not to try and do us over one way or another, especially if it helps out ministers business interests, or lines their friends pockets.
Or put another way, whilst we may not be about to see the death of Diesel, what are the odds that a lynch mob are going to jump out and give it a damn good shoeing?
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Nov 18, 2017 12:01:35 GMT
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Yeh, rekon' you are right, I think they are going to get a hammering by the Government & pretty soon won't be worth owning (just in time for when that guy with the other thread Merc diesel in a 68 Charger, so he can put the proper engine back in)
My missus has just had another knew Kuga & my guess is unless they do a petrol option it will be the last one she has.
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Nov 18, 2017 12:14:16 GMT
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For many of us, they'd really have to run up the price of diesel at the pump to make it comparable to owning and running an equivalent petrol powered vehicle. Older pre-2001 diesels will most likely escape the brunt of taxation hikes so unless you own a modern car, I don't see it harming the retro diesel scene too badly.
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Nov 18, 2017 12:29:53 GMT
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For many of us, they'd really have to run up the price of diesel at the pump to make it comparable to owning and running an equivalent petrol powered vehicle. Older pre-2001 diesels will most likely escape the brunt of taxation hikes so unless you own a modern car, I don't see it harming the retro diesel scene too badly. The price of diesel isn't going to be the issue anymore than ramping up the tax on new diesels. The problem is going to be when various towns and cities around the UK decide to take a hard line with diesel cars and look to ban them from entering their 'clean air zones' or whatever they will start to call them. The writing is on the wall, it's been on the wall for a few years now, the diesel engine is dead and buried in anything that is not a commercial vehicle or used in an industrial application. I tend to think that there is a hell of a lot of disinformation surrounding diesel engines but you will never counter current argument or thinking and there is a powerful environmental lobby, backed by vested industrial interests, that will continue to push and push until it will be only high days and holidays when you can drive your diesel powered car. I'm not even convinced that 'classic' diesel vehicles will escape the wrath of authority, they may just be allowed to hang on until the bitter end. |
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Nov 18, 2017 12:48:12 GMT
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Agreed. Its the congestion charge style taxes that will kill off the deisel dream for me. The price of fuel is pretty irrelevant as I run on veg and always will as long as the tax break is in place. I can't see them changing that any time soon as it's pretty irrelevant to most newer cars now anyway as they will only run bio and that's too pricey to be really worth it.
Scrapping schemes may make old deisels rarer and more expensive to buy but there would have to be a massive hike in price to offset my fuel saving and I already have enough cars and spare parts 'in stock' to last me a good few years!
Living two miles from Birmingham city centre is going to be my big problem if they start wanting 20quid off me every time I need to venture inside the ring road.
At the end of the day I can understand what they are trying to do. Improving air quality in cities is important but the burden shouldn't fall on people who bought deisel cars in good faith. Taxes should be raised on new deisels to discourage thier sale. With the life spans of modern cars nowadays the situation would be greatly improved even in a few years with little expenditure from anyone.
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Nov 18, 2017 12:53:37 GMT
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Yep, the problem wont be at the pumps, although if the government needs to gain a few quid the motorist will always be one of the first targets, the main problem will be when various towns and cities around the UK decide to take a hard line with diesel cars and look to ban them from entering their alleged clean air zones. Already some local towns to me are planning to charge atleast £10 for any diesel to drive into their city per visit, this ofcourse means that I will have to charge whoever I am working for atleast an extra tenner a day, which ultimately means my price may well be more than someone who maybe lives in the city. Therefore I lose out on a job! The trouble is that by penalising the motorist by putting up the cost of fuel, or the cost of tax, or the real scam which is some toll for using such a vehicle means that it has a knock on effect that everything costs more, due to the cost of delivering it becoming more! And as for electric vehicles, surely this is the biggest scam of all...  |
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Nov 18, 2017 12:56:29 GMT
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It's an interesting position that DfT have created for themselves in the subject of diesel combustion engines... Within the same week in July came the announcement that we were all electric Post 2040, but diesel electric trains were the future for Midland Mainline. Given the concerns around emissions in the centre of conurbations, it seems a contradictory policy.
I think existing diesels won't be heavily penalised, but new production will be despite the clear efficiencies of new engines. I suspect non standard modifications will become harder to introduce(especially for diesel.. Followed a nodded Jetta this morning belching black smoke on acceleration).
For me, as I move away from a company car I will be looking at a mid 2000s diesel, Volvo or Mercedes for my 25k a year and the cost benefits will have to move massively to make it more economical to run an equivalent petrol luxobarge...
I'm more curious about the really long term view globally, I really fancy a RtW adventure in 10-15 years time, will diesel still be a suitable fuel of choice? Will crossing continents be a feasible option for the overland traveller or will I be choosing a 4wd petrol electric hybrid Transit rather than a 110/Patrol or Land Cruiser?
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2014 - Audi A6 Avant 3.0Tdi Quattro
1958 - Chevrolet Apache Panel Truck
1959 - Plymouth Custom Suburban
1952 - Chevrolet 2dr Hardtop
1985 - Ford Econoline E350 Quadravan
2009 - Ovlov V70 2.5T
1970 - Cortina Mk2 Estate
2007 - Fiat Ducato LWB 120Multijet
2014 - Honda Civic 2.2 CTDi ES
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Nov 18, 2017 13:03:03 GMT
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Living two miles from Birmingham city centre is going to be my big problem if they start wanting 20quid off me every time I need to venture inside the ring road. New Street is a notorious hot spot for Nox, and there's a significant volume of diesel trains hub from that location,policy has to be focused equally on all forms of transport and not just the private motorist(which will inevitably happen) |
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2014 - Audi A6 Avant 3.0Tdi Quattro
1958 - Chevrolet Apache Panel Truck
1959 - Plymouth Custom Suburban
1952 - Chevrolet 2dr Hardtop
1985 - Ford Econoline E350 Quadravan
2009 - Ovlov V70 2.5T
1970 - Cortina Mk2 Estate
2007 - Fiat Ducato LWB 120Multijet
2014 - Honda Civic 2.2 CTDi ES
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Nov 18, 2017 13:12:41 GMT
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I can't find the source, but I have also seen it said that the recent fashion to move back to wood burners and coal fires -especially in inner cities- is a much bigger contributor towards 'particulate emissions' than internal combustion.
Something else that is very loosely regulated at the moment.
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Nov 18, 2017 14:15:29 GMT
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Like every issue in the energy world. Unless we make a big investment in clean nuclear technologies we are going no where.
Deisels were originally promoted as they helped with Co2 emissions. Once you consider the bigger picture all these recent moves back to petrol or towards electric cars are just a backwards step in that regard. Unless you can make the energy cleanly in the first place your just making things worse shifting everything to electric in that regard.
Try explaining logic to an 'environmentalist' tho!
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voodoo57
Club Retro Rides Member
That's not 2 metres! come a little...Closer!
Posts: 2,869 
Club RR Member Number: 137
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Nov 18, 2017 14:43:40 GMT
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I remember a very short while ago on the news that there was a borough in London which had some gadget that measured the air for particulates, grit, 2nd hand sponges and fumes etc etc... and apparently, the machine showed that within 3 weeks (i think) the area had hit it's maximum level of co2 etc etc!!!!!  ?? erm... something tells me that some curse word obviously got the settings wrong, or just didn't do their homework??? and then only a couple of weeks ago, again on the news, scientists admitted that they had worked out the measurement/scale to do with the Ozone layers and level of blah blah blah had only got it WRONG! and that the damage caused etc etc was not as bad as they 1st thought??? However, idiots representing the emissions zone obviously don't care about this as they are jobsworths and are there only to irritate us! now, i can understand (against my better judgement) having to pay a fine if you enter a congestion zone without first registering your vehicle, paying over £200 to register it and then (at this present time) paying £15 a day to enter in your 'Dirty' vehicle, but how does a fine of over £200 actually make anything better? does the money go towards washing that particular section of air that you have now defaced and 'making it better' ? On the other hand, you could always run that Blue additive that a lot of trucks/lorries have, register your vehicle and then you would have to pay less to enter the 'Clean zone' with your dirty machine, BUT!!!! what is the point when if we are offered options to soften the blow and comply with their fake scientific demands when they move the goal posts again and again??? how many years have we had Black cabs in the city? buses spewing out black smoke all day long, and now, all of a sudden, electric moves in and it's all the motorists fault why we are poisoning everyone else..... (so dramatic i know!) But, to finish off my rant (hooray you say!) who remembers the advert where owners opened their garage doors with the word DIE on one side, then SEL on the other door, and out drove a diesel powered car..... Remember that? telling everyone to buy diesel blah blah blah!Anyway, i am up for a scrap now! why do i write such comment? ARGGGGGHHHHH RAGE!!!!!!!!! (it's ok, i am fine..... REALLY!) |
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Nov 18, 2017 14:44:15 GMT
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I have shot down a few environmentalists with the argument that the most pollution a car ever produces is during its construction, so even my '83 (sort of) RRC six wheel is more environmentally friendly than any new prius, or whatever.
I already 'benefit' from free tax, due to having disabled children, but I wouldn't take a mobility car under ANY circumstances,
And of course the Rangie is diesel, even though the engine is at least 20 years younger than the rest of the car!
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voodoo57
Club Retro Rides Member
That's not 2 metres! come a little...Closer!
Posts: 2,869
Club RR Member Number: 137
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Nov 18, 2017 14:44:32 GMT
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p.s, I don't remember putting those heads in there? |
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vitessetony
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,055
Club RR Member Number: 114
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Nov 18, 2017 15:09:45 GMT
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And as for electric vehicles, surely this is the biggest scam of all... The problem with cartoons like this is that they simplify the argument with no basis in truth and people to idle to do even minimal research will then go on to tell everyone who will listen that electric cars are a big scam because they use electricity generated by conventional dirty power stations. Whilst to some extent this is true and until more renewable energy has the investment that is necessary,inevitable, we are heading in the right direction with renewables. The national grid confirmed earlier this year that in June renewable energy accounted for half of the energy produced for midday demand the other slack being taken up by nuclear and gas fired plants in that order. Emma Pinchbeck, who heads up renewable energy trade body RenewableUK, said: "National Grid is confirming that low-carbon sources are generating 70% of our electricity - with wind power the star amongst these source. I get why people don't like the idea of electric cars, I too love engines and straight piped exhausts, I mean literally obsessed! but I also love the planet on which we all live and if we could do something, however small to slow down our effects of living here it's got to be worth a try in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the prospect of petrol and diesel cars becoming obsolete I still have so many cars I want to own, at the moment I really want a Bullitt Mustang (great big V8) so I'm no eco warrior I just recognise change is inevitable and necessary. |
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Nov 18, 2017 17:15:13 GMT
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And as for electric vehicles, surely this is the biggest scam of all... The problem with cartoons like this is that they simplify the argument with no basis in truth and people to idle to do even minimal research will then go on to tell everyone who will listen that electric cars are a big scam because they use electricity generated by conventional dirty power stations. Whilst to some extent this is true and until more renewable energy has the investment that is necessary,inevitable, we are heading in the right direction with renewables. The national grid confirmed earlier this year that in June renewable energy accounted for half of the energy produced for midday demand the other slack being taken up by nuclear and gas fired plants in that order. Emma Pinchbeck, who heads up renewable energy trade body RenewableUK, said: "National Grid is confirming that low-carbon sources are generating 70% of our electricity - with wind power the star amongst these source. I get why people don't like the idea of electric cars, I too love engines and straight piped exhausts, I mean literally obsessed! but I also love the planet on which we all live and if we could do something, however small to slow down our effects of living here it's got to be worth a try in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the prospect of petrol and diesel cars becoming obsolete I still have so many cars I want to own, at the moment I really want a Bullitt Mustang (great big V8) so I'm no eco warrior I just recognise change is inevitable and necessary. I actually get the distinct impression that precious few of us are against electric cars let alone hybrid ones. I think there are two primary issues, firstly the probable penalties levied against owners of second hand diesel vehicles and secondly this airy fairy notion that we can switch to all electric vehicles within 50 years, let alone 25 and have an infrastructure to provide the energy to charge them let alone have sufficient space on the public highways to charge millions of cars that are not parked off road or in garages every night. I'm pretty conversant with how we provide infrastructure in the telecommunications industry and I can tell you now there is not a cat in hells chance of there being sufficient charging points where cars are parked for any length of time in the foreseeable future. It will be a monumental undertaking. Obviously, the next question is 'Who will be paying? Its going to cost multiple billions of pounds, somebody will have to bankroll it. Technology may dictate that we can eventually spend the same amount of time charging a battery at a filling station as we do filling up with fuel but do you start spending billions and allow technological advances to render such expenditure obsolete? Hmmm Ok, we accept that vehicles cause pollution, we do not have to necessarilly accept that they are the sole or main cause. Part of the problem has been successive anti car policies by Governments, haruanged by environmental pressure groups, to try and force us onto public Transport. Great if you are in a City...... Modern housing estates are not car friendly and pedestrianizing areas leaves fewer roads and more traffic on the ones left. Traffic management is a complete joke, traffic lights are poorly phased and many are controlled by pedestrians when they should be set to go red at suitable times to maximize traffic flow. Look, we have big problems but many of the problems have been created by people who were never well disposed towards to internal combustion engine. Even at this late stage much more could be done to create more traffic flow through our towns and cities and that alone would begin to reduce measured emissions. I'm quite happy to go all electric, I'm quite happy to go hybrid but I'm also happy to keep my old cars for fun. There has to be compromise and, I fear, it will be the kind of people on this forum who will have to make all the concessions with little in return. The diesel question is just the beginning. |
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vitessetony
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,055
Club RR Member Number: 114
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Nov 18, 2017 17:44:18 GMT
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The problem with cartoons like this is that they simplify the argument with no basis in truth and people to idle to do even minimal research will then go on to tell everyone who will listen that electric cars are a big scam because they use electricity generated by conventional dirty power stations. Whilst to some extent this is true and until more renewable energy has the investment that is necessary,inevitable, we are heading in the right direction with renewables. The national grid confirmed earlier this year that in June renewable energy accounted for half of the energy produced for midday demand the other slack being taken up by nuclear and gas fired plants in that order. Emma Pinchbeck, who heads up renewable energy trade body RenewableUK, said: "National Grid is confirming that low-carbon sources are generating 70% of our electricity - with wind power the star amongst these source. I get why people don't like the idea of electric cars, I too love engines and straight piped exhausts, I mean literally obsessed! but I also love the planet on which we all live and if we could do something, however small to slow down our effects of living here it's got to be worth a try in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the prospect of petrol and diesel cars becoming obsolete I still have so many cars I want to own, at the moment I really want a Bullitt Mustang (great big V8) so I'm no eco warrior I just recognise change is inevitable and necessary. I actually get the distinct impression that precious few of us are against electric cars let alone hybrid ones. I think there are two primary issues, firstly the probable penalties levied against owners of second hand diesel vehicles and secondly this airy fairy notion that we can switch to all electric vehicles within 50 years, let alone 25 and have an infrastructure to provide the energy to charge them let alone have sufficient space on the public highways to charge millions of cars that are not parked off road or in garages every night. I'm pretty conversant with how we provide infrastructure in the telecommunications industry and I can tell you now there is not a cat in hells chance of there being sufficient charging points where cars are parked for any length of time in the foreseeable future. It will be a monumental undertaking. Obviously, the next question is 'Who will be paying? Its going to cost multiple billions of pounds, somebody will have to bankroll it. Technology may dictate that we can eventually spend the same amount of time charging a battery at a filling station as we do filling up with fuel but do you start spending billions and allow technological advances to render such expenditure obsolete? Hmmm Ok, we accept that vehicles cause pollution, we do not have to necessarilly accept that they are the sole or main cause. Part of the problem has been successive anti car policies by Governments, haruanged by environmental pressure groups, to try and force us onto public Transport. Great if you are in a City...... Modern housing estates are not car friendly and pedestrianizing areas leaves fewer roads and more traffic on the ones left. Traffic management is a complete joke, traffic lights are poorly phased and many are controlled by pedestrians when they should be set to go red at suitable times to maximize traffic flow. Look, we have big problems but many of the problems have been created by people who were never well disposed towards to internal combustion engine. Even at this late stage much more could be done to create more traffic flow through our towns and cities and that alone would begin to reduce measured emissions. I'm quite happy to go all electric, I'm quite happy to go hybrid but I'm also happy to keep my old cars for fun. There has to be compromise and, I fear, it will be the kind of people on this forum who will have to make all the concessions with little in return. The diesel question is just the beginning. Wherever there is a street light there can be a charging point for a vehicle, utilising the network already in existence. Maybe in time each point may be able to charge several vehicles at the same time. As long as people keep looking for solutions rather than problems anything can be overcome. 50 years is a long time in terms of technology, airy fairy or not it is coming. Traffic management, I couldn't agree more. I think we are basically of the same mind really, I would like an electric car for daily commute and a stonking big V8 for fun! Whether or not that is a possibility remains to be seen,it certainly looks like real car enthusiasts will be coming in for a rough ride in the future. |
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Nov 18, 2017 18:16:24 GMT
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In addition to vitessetony's conmments, there's also the fact that power stations are out in the middle of nowhere whereas the worst vehicle pollution is in built up urban areas, so even if the power is generated by fossil fuels, electric vehicles displace the pollution to areas where it causes less of a problem. The current anti diesel climate (no pun intended) is the price we're paying for the car makers conducting a mass fraud. Fitting cheat devices, fiddling the figures and generally manipulating government policies in their favour. |
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Nov 18, 2017 18:32:19 GMT
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It's an interesting position that DfT have created for themselves in the subject of diesel combustion engines... Within the same week in July came the announcement that we were all electric Post 2040, but diesel electric trains were the future for Midland Mainline. This has been misquoted that many times that it’s now seen as fact. What was announced was the sale of conventional diesel and petrol only cars would be banned by 2040. So hybrids will still be allowed. As other have said, LEZs will be the death of the newer diesels - but currently, just about everywhere has exemptions for classics (petrol and diesel). |
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Nov 18, 2017 21:21:05 GMT
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Scimjim, thanks for the correction on that. 23 years is a long time for automotive development and aspiration will be for technology to alleviate the need to use ICE in bi-mode applications for direct traction or as a genset.
Saddest part is that much of the thinking driving potential is built around the challenges of congested urban environments. Best start thinking of the car I want to carry me into retirement as the future classic!
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2014 - Audi A6 Avant 3.0Tdi Quattro
1958 - Chevrolet Apache Panel Truck
1959 - Plymouth Custom Suburban
1952 - Chevrolet 2dr Hardtop
1985 - Ford Econoline E350 Quadravan
2009 - Ovlov V70 2.5T
1970 - Cortina Mk2 Estate
2007 - Fiat Ducato LWB 120Multijet
2014 - Honda Civic 2.2 CTDi ES
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sb
Part of things
Posts: 725
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Nov 18, 2017 23:06:19 GMT
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One of the major issues is the government has never correctly tested emissions for vehicles. On the road you are nowhere near the test conditions and likely never will be, this allows awful polluting vehicles onto our roads under a false guide.
If every car went through realistic emmisions testing we would have some actual information on pollutants.
Also one of the things everybody likes to gloss over is torque is the most important number. Now find me a 1.4 petrol that can make the same torque as my diesel. Most 'eco' petrols I've driven darn near need to be launched every time you pull away and that's when you burn the most fuel. Ican do 60mpg urban driving if I'm careful, I cannot see an equal petrol getting near to that and would happily argue that my vehicle when driven correctly likely pollutes less.
Also the old one that you can keep driving your old car and still polute less than manafacturing a new electric car is almost entirely false, a new electric car will likely benefit over your old car within a decade including its manufacture.
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Last Edit: Nov 20, 2017 21:21:27 GMT by sb
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?? erm... something tells me that some curse word obviously got the settings wrong, or just didn't do their homework??? and then only a couple of weeks ago, again on the news, scientists admitted that they had worked out the measurement/scale to do with the Ozone layers and level of blah blah blah had only got it WRONG! and that the damage caused etc etc was not as bad as they 1st thought??? However, idiots representing the emissions zone obviously don't care about this as they are jobsworths and are there only to irritate us!
