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Feb 10, 2015 22:15:21 GMT
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This thread's got the lot; wrecked electrics, roof going walkabout, 3D rendering, lots of steel, moving water, Sweetpea welding, a complete disregard for bureaucracy, everything.  What more could a girl possibly want? Sorry to see the work light is not of the approved Hello Kitty type though.  Crack on, Sir. |
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Feb 14, 2015 11:58:55 GMT
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Sorry to see the work light is not of the approved Hello Kitty type though. Crack on, Sir. Sorry about the tardy reply. You see, the fact is, I didn't know what to say. I like to know what the rules and regulations are before ignoring them. EU regulation 17579 - pt 4 - sect 39 - para 2 - sub para 8 clearly states "All amateur mechanics, builders and general tinkerers shall own and use a Hello Kitty work light". it's a regulation I completely approve of and should be following. Hello Kitty work lamps are clearly a massive improvement to bodgers safety. I don't have one and I've been caught out. I'm so ashamed. |
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Back in the past…
I came up with a complex design of brackets and fixings and things. The sort of design that would use my great fabrication skills to the full and would take only two or three decades to construct.
My neighbours cousin is a steel supplier so I invited him over and showed him the cardboard templates of my outstanding design. He didn't actually say how impressed he was but I could tell by his face that he was quite stunned. Or it could have been indigestion.
He did, however, give me two bits of advice. One was that my favourite MIG welder was too girlie to do the welds. The other was that I should get a man to do some proper calculations and drawings.
Don't you just hate people who are right.
So the next chap to take a tour of the loft was a structural engineer. Interesting chap. We chatted about loads of stuff - mostly to do with construction. Anyhow, he pootled off with some measurements and a couple of weeks later a pile of calculations and drawings landed on the doormat.
The drawings were of a much simpler, much easier design. Much more sensible than my halfwitted ideas. One thing that had changed was that my design ran cheap lightweight flat bar across the loft and his used 50mm angle. I was having an email chat with him (to clarify a couple of things) and he said that, structurally, flat bar was fine. Maybe I should swap it back to flat bar then?
A couple of things worried me about the angle. One was the weight it would add to the ceilings. The other was how to put the floor back down over the top of it.
There were also a couple of advantages. Two extra inches of insulation in the back of the house for a start. More interestingly, because the metalwork connects to only one side of the rafter it would impart a twisting moment as the rafter tried to move away. The stiffness of the angle would resist that a little.
While mulling that idea over another one struck me. The ceilings, being 85 years old, have sagged a fair bit. Probably not helped by the humungous amount of assorted stuff that's stored up there. Anyway, the stiff angle would float across the ceiling joists without actually touching them and so wouldn't actually add any weight. Especially if I set them, say, 20mm above the joists and pretension them too…
Pretension them… Now there's a thought.
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Hi, Your last few words have answered a question I was going to ask, about pretensioning before drilling and bolting up the last fixing.
Colin
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Bookmarked...
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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I know it's an added "mess" factor, but if you're worried about twisting, can you not weld a fork on the end of each bar so it slips over each side of the rafter and then bolt through the lot? We'll let the worklight situation slide for the moment, as I think this is probably the least of your worries |
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If its spread you're trying to stop my first thoughts are why not use steel wire rope, eye bolts and tensioners, I admit it wouldn't tie as an assembly, you'd still need the chimney collar to bridage around that, but it'd be very cheap, quick and easy to install and certainly restrain spread.
Brian
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Feb 15, 2015 17:00:56 GMT
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Top marks for getting stuck in, and coming up with a design that is approved by many experienced craftsmen on this forum (don't count me - I'm more an entusiastic amateur of the "bodge it & scarper" school  ) The design has a large hole by the lofthatch / chimney, maybe add another brace alongside the chimney in line with the lofthatch (so the big hole becomes a more braced figure-8 shape ) Bolting the steels together *should* be fine, but welding would make sure they can't slip  I know it's an added "mess" factor, but if you're worried about twisting, can you not weld a fork on the end of each bar so it slips over each side of the rafter and then bolt through the lot? The new steels meet the appoved standard (ie they look about right ) but the joint onto the timber looks to be the weakest part of the design. It my be fine but you might want to add some kind of z-brace to tie the steel onto the bolthead side and stop anything twisting ... I'd check if the single bolt will be ok or if it will concentrate the forces at a single point... Keep up the good work! |
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Feb 15, 2015 19:59:07 GMT
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Hi, I don't think welding should be necessary, firstly as suggested it should be to a coded standard, secondly with that thickness you should be looking at preheating. But mainly I wouldn't really be wanting to weld up in the loft with all that tinder dry timber and dust about. To be honest I think what is being done is sufficient to take the strain of the roof timbers and the walls. The only other thing could maybe clamping a collar round the chimney stack and having steels go upto where the rafters meet the chimney to assist with the support.
Colin
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Feb 15, 2015 21:22:56 GMT
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I'm not used to my threads attracting this much interest.
Where shall we start... Brian suggested wire rope. I thought I'd had every conceivable idea for keeping my roof on but I hadn't thought of that one. Nice idea but too late now!
A couple of people have mentioned that the loft hatch is in an unfortunate position. Yep. It is. The structural engineer chappy has calculated that the channel section is strong enough over that length to carry the weight. I think you are allowed a 5mm deflection in a piece of steelwork. More than that ant it's considered to have failed. That's not much - 5mm. Anyway engineer says "OK", he's done the sums. I'm happy. I'm not going to second guess him.
It's a big piece of metal that channel section. It's 50 x 100 and it's 10mm thick.
So this idea that George mentioned of welding a forked bit on the end of the tie bars so they can connect to both sides of the rafter... Well, funnily enough, that was exactly what my first design did. Great minds think alike! There are 2 reasons for not doing it.
Firstly you don't need to. The structural chappy drew it single sided and he knows what he's talking about. Hopefully.
Secondly I'd need to be totally accurate when drilling through the foot of the rafter or I'd miss the hole in the metal on the other side. The last thing you want to do is chew the bottom of the rafter out with the drill because...
...As nomad said the bolt in the bottom of the rafter is the weakest part. However... It's an M12 bolt. It's not going to break, it'll rip the bottom of the rafter out first. And that's not going to happen because the rest of the roof is nailed with piddly little wire nails (relatively piddly). The bolt in the rafter may be the weak bit of my system but it's still stronger than the rest of the roof.
Colin & nomad, I seriously considered welding as part of the method for pretensioning. I'll cover that another day. I even got as far as trying to set light to a sample of the insulation. (It impressively refuses to burn but I wasn't about to trust what people say without trying myself.) At the end of the day I convinced myself that I could safely weld in the loft without setting fire to the house. But I still couldn't convince myself that it was a good idea so I won't be doing it.
There is welding involved and I plan to do it - unless I'm not happy with the result in which case I'll get someone else to do it. All the welding will be done in the garage though!
Thank's for reading and for all your thoughts.
James
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Feb 19, 2015 23:27:34 GMT
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Well now… I've got stuff in the loft but, predictably, missed out the bit saying how I did it. Not that it was hard or exciting but I'm going to tell you anyway. First off I built a few jigs and tools. Just to speed things up a little.  The wooden doofer with the bit of pipe in it at the top of the picture, I'll come to that later. The metal apparatus in the middle is my pretensioning rig. And the red thing at the bottom with the hole in it is so I can get holes drilled in the right places without bothering to measure them all. You just clamp it to the end of the angle…  …and pop a pilot hole through. That then gets opened up to M12 ready for the bolt. Where two parts join I drill three out of the four holes on the pillar drill and then bolt and clamp it all together.  The last hole is pushed through by hand to guarantee getting it in the right place.  The oil can, by the way, is because I've been dropping a bit of oil on the drill bits to keep them cool. Obviously floods of that nice white proper coolant is, well, inconvenient. I find that a bit of engine oil helps keep the bits sharp. The joints I'm going to pretension just get two of the holes drilled in the garage. The remaining holes get done in the loft after it's all tight. I'll show you that later too. All that remains is a good coat of paint.  Paint. Hmmph. Frankly, humph. The metal is 5mm thick for goodness sake, it'll take 200 years to rust through. Why would i bother to paint it? Well, sadly for me, the engineer that did the drawings specified that it'd be painted. It also occurs to me that it could, very possibly, still be up there in 200 years. You see that's an interesting thought. I, and probably most of you, do things that are there to last 10, 20 years. Maybe 50 years. But not a couple of centuries or more. It's a strange feeling. Out in the hall is a Grandfather clock. It was built, probably, around 1850 and still keeps time to within a minute a week. I'd just love to go back and meet the bloke that built it. Can you imagine what he'd say when told that the clock he was building would still be clacking away 160 years later? I know what I'd say. I digress. The other reason to paint it is that the steel, as delivered, is utterly filthy. So a quick sand and coat of paint makes it much nicer to handle. Don't they have cleaners in steel works? All it'd take is an old dear in a pinny to whizz a hoover round the rolling mills. Surely? |
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2018 22:30:14 GMT by Sweetpea
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It also occurs to me that it could, very possibly, still be up there in 200 years. You see that's an interesting thought. I, and probably most of you, do things that are there to last 10, 20 years. Maybe 50 years. But not a couple of centuries or more. It's a strange feeling. Out in the hall is a Grandfather clock. It was built, probably, around 1850 and still keeps time to within a minute a week. I'd just love to go back and meet the bloke that built it. Can you imagine what he'd say when told that the clock he was building would still be clacking away 160 years later? I know what I'd say. I digress. The other reason to paint it is that the steel, as delivered, is utterly filthy. So a quick sand and coat of paint makes it much nicer to handle. Don't they have cleaners in steel works? All it'd take is an old dear in a pinny to whizz a hoover round the rolling mills. Surely? It's an interesting point you make there James. I help design and operate railways and fully expect them to be around long after I'm gone. Unfortunately the politicians, bureaucrats and accountants are only ever interested in the short term so persuading them to allow proper specifications to be drawn up rather than something cheap and cheerful can be a real uphill battle sometimes. In fact, and I hate to say it, but some of my biggest battles are with the constructing engineers who, to save a couple of bob in CAPEX here and there want to condemn the line to a lifetime of increased maintenance and difficult, inefficient operation. Ah well... Your clockmaker probably never even thought about it ever being replaced with anything else. Why would he? As to your last point, I see an opportunity here. We've got loads and loads of spare Filipinas here. I could ship 'em over by the score and the mills could have an army of Pinays in Pinnies  Sorry. |
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Last Edit: Feb 20, 2015 2:28:54 GMT by georgeb
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Feb 20, 2015 17:08:07 GMT
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While I was at a church wedding a few years ago, I was studying the wood work (as you do, while waiting for something to happen ) and I noticed whoever the carpenter and apprentice had been they had carved their full names and the date into one of the roof trusses - where it could be seen from ground level if you looked - I'm sure the date was well over 300 years ago. I would love to think that as time went on if his family were local they went in and it was pointed out to them - that was your dads/ grandad/ great grandads work up there holding the roof up, a real lasting memorial. You want to weld your initials and the date onto one of your supports! On the subject of painting RSJ's I've seen really badly corroded ones that had been insitu for about 100 years, how long the paint will stay on the new ones though is anybody's guess.... |
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Last Edit: Feb 20, 2015 17:08:41 GMT by dodgerover
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THE_Liam
Yorkshire and The Humber
If at first you don't succeed... HAMMERS.
Posts: 1,363
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Feb 20, 2015 22:03:43 GMT
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My Grandad moved over from Ireland, stereotypically to build roads. Everytime I drive on the M1 I think of him, he built that and a lot of other motorways.
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God I really hate nights. I should be asleep now but at 3am - ding! - wide awake. Hello World! I wouldn't mind but I'll fall asleep at 5 this evening and be awake at 3 again. Our shift pattern really stinks. As to your last point, I see an opportunity here. We've got loads and loads of spare Filipinas here. I could ship 'em over by the score and the mills could have an army of Pinays in Pinnies Sorry. I was going to say that we can't help you there as I clearly remember all the steel works closing down in the '80s. Except it turns out to be untrue. The UK still makes steel. It's just that it's owned by Tata now - along with Jag and Land Rover. You see I'd come to the conclusion that the British lost all the manufacturing industries years ago but we didn't. We just sold them all to foreigners. This then leads me to believe that although we are quite capable of making the best toffee in the world we can't manage our industry for it. Anyway, George, I'll pass on your suggestion to Mr Tata just as soon as I work out who he is. You want to weld your initials and the date onto one of your supports! Now that's a damn fine idea! I'll do that. James |
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Feb 27, 2015 10:47:58 GMT
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So, the floor - make that, bits of old wardrobes and assorted other random bits of wood - is back down in front part of the loft space.  And the first two tie bars are in the back end of the house. third one will go in this morning. I'll take a photo later. But in other news - and this is far more interesting and has slowed me down considerably... I needed some music up there as my poor little brain can't live with its self unless there is serious distraction. Fortunately my old HiFi is in the loft.  So it got rigged again and plugged into these...  1970s Celestion Ditton 44s. Oh wow! I'd forgotten how good they sound. There is a party in my loft today! John Farnham on cassette through big vintage speakers. Life doesn't get better. (Except, perhaps, vinyl or CD but I'm not getting into that argument!) |
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2018 22:35:30 GMT by Sweetpea
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MiataMark
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,971
Club RR Member Number: 29
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Feb 27, 2015 15:05:18 GMT
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 1970s Celestion Ditton 44s. Oh wow! I'd forgotten how good they sound. There is a party in my loft today! John Farnham on cassette through big vintage speakers. Life doesn't get better. (Except, perhaps, vinyl or CD but I'm not getting into that argument!) Take the castors off and it'll sound even better (well maybe not in the loft). |
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1990 Mazda MX-52012 BMW 118i (170bhp) - white appliance 2011 Land Rover Freelander 2 TD4 2003 Land Rover Discovery II TD52007 Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon JTDm
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Feb 27, 2015 19:11:05 GMT
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Don't think the temperature variations will be doing the HiFi gear any good up there, best move it downstairs for safety!
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jules
Part of things
Posts: 75
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Mar 17, 2015 23:14:42 GMT
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Just read it all. Now waiting anxiously for the next update !
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Now waiting anxiously for the next update ! Me too! But I reckon we'll get fobbed off with some garbled excuse about "holidays". Whatever they are. Could this thread turn into another saga along the lines of Toyota MR2 bumpers, Porsche oil tanks and now I think about it, me replacing my cooling system? |
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What more could a girl possibly want?
) 
Sorry.
