niwid
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,744
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Just hoping for a few opinions...
A good friend of mine has recently bought a 1987 1.0 K10 Nissan Micra, to use as a daily while he drops a 2.0 Turbo into his Rover 200. Now we are both really into our cars, and love driving, but we have never before had two cars with similar performance. So, last night, we took the little 1 litres out for a bit of a play, booting it down the backroads, squeezing through some narrow alleyways, rolling round mini roundabouts and what not. Nothing really stupid, just spirited driving, and chucking the cars about a bit more than usual.
When we stopped, he was saying how he has never been able to have that much fun in a car before. With the Rover, and his previous hot hatches, as soon as you put your foot down, your doing well over the speed limit, and it becomes dangerous. With the 1 litres, you can hoon about for ages without really breaking the speed limit, and with enough braking time to feel relatively safe. If you keep your wits about you and don't act really stupid, your not really any more of a danger to anyone than normal.
It's the old conundrum of slow car fast, or fast car slow. You can drive a slow car quickly, more often, and more safely, than anything quick.
This has got me thinking. I've got a 1.4 ABD sitting in the garage. The plan is to get it in, and with a few other mods, have it running 75-80ish bhp and lots more torque. Now though, I'm worried that in doing this, I won't be able to have as much fun in the car.
Thoughts...?
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Ive got a 600hp Aristo, and a 150hp Sprinter Trueno, and the Sprinter is more fun, probably because more of the performance is more accessible, more of the time.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,926
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Slow car fast...??stealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Takes more skill to drive a slow car fast because you've got to keep the momentum up in the bends.
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With the Rover, and his previous hot hatches, as soon as you put your foot down, your doing well over the speed limit, and it becomes dangerous. With the 1 litres, you can hoon about for ages without really breaking the speed limit, and with enough braking time to feel relatively safe. If you keep your wits about you and don't act really stupid, your not really any more of a danger to anyone than normal. In either car, you're only endangering people if you're driving dangerously. It is entirely possible to drive fast cars fast without being dangerous.
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Jul 30, 2013 10:01:56 GMT
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This sums the imp up nicely,on a straight road my transit is quicker but get it on a twisty A road and its unreal,its got tarmac suspension, polybushes etc. and just loves corners/roundabouts, all I need now is another 50bhp to make it quick everywhere,not a lot to ask is it? 50bhp will cost loads of money!!!!
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niwid
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,744
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Jul 30, 2013 10:04:20 GMT
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With the Rover, and his previous hot hatches, as soon as you put your foot down, your doing well over the speed limit, and it becomes dangerous. With the 1 litres, you can hoon about for ages without really breaking the speed limit, and with enough braking time to feel relatively safe. If you keep your wits about you and don't act really stupid, your not really any more of a danger to anyone than normal. In either car, you're only endangering people if you're driving dangerously. It is entirely possible to drive fast cars fast without being dangerous. This is true, but if you've got a lot of power on tap, you can't really drive hard without driving dangerously. In my mind, it's more fun, more of the time with a small engine and lightweight car, as you can boot it about a bit without worrying.
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Jul 30, 2013 10:08:03 GMT
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if you've got a lot of power on tap, you can't really drive hard without driving dangerously I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I have to disagree with that. There are other factors at play beyond the car's power.
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Jul 30, 2013 10:22:43 GMT
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I fully agree, slow car's can be great fun as you can thrash them about feeling like a racing driver while only doing the speed limit. Fast car's, once you hit the redline in 2nd your generally speeding.
I have to be really careful in my golf, for the simple fact you don't realise quite how fast your going. Dread to think how reigned in you would feel in something like a Lambo, having driven a LP640 on track keeping below 5k rpm, 30-120 doesnt take long.
Ive found car's that do 0-60 in about 10 seconds (like a 205 XS) seem to be a perfect ballance.
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niwid
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,744
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Jul 30, 2013 10:25:33 GMT
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if you've got a lot of power on tap, you can't really drive hard without driving dangerously I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I have to disagree with that. There are other factors at play beyond the car's power. No OK, I could have worded that better. Lets say your on a winding country lane, and you want to have a laugh. If your driving, lets say, a BMW M5, or something along those lines, you put your foot hard down and you're going to be doing 120 mph before you can say 'mobile speed camera'. If your really pushing it you will be doing extreme speeds around corners, with very little time for reaction if you, or another driver does something wrong. Of course, we are talking about driving fast, but carefully. I just think that you would have to be a lot more careful in something fast, and have to back off a lot sooner, and more often.
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,939
Club RR Member Number: 58
Member is Online
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Slow car fast...??adam73bgt
@adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member 58
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Jul 30, 2013 10:35:43 GMT
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I think the tyres are often the limiting factor for having a laugh in a slow car, my MGB can get a bit tail happy doing about 35 around a slightly greasy roundabout, being able to hit that limit of traction at road legal speeds makes it a right laugh to chuck about. The ancient suspension geometry also probably has something to do with this. That said, much of my teen years was spent revving the nuts off my parents 1.2 grande punto, that was a right laugh because you are able to floor it everywhere and stay under the speed limit (and keep the mpg pretty respectable) As for putting a 1.4 with 75-80ish hp in your car, I wouldnt worry about it being too fast, I'm currently driving my brothers 1.25 fiesta with about 75 hp while the B is off the road and its a cracking little car to drive After saying all that, I've had no experience driving very powerful cars, but I imagine you can have fun in those too just not on the limits of traction as you'd be going much faster
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g40jon
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,569
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Jul 30, 2013 10:35:45 GMT
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Just hoping for a few opinions... This has got me thinking. I've got a 1.4 ABD sitting in the garage. The plan is to get it in, and with a few other mods, have it running 75-80ish bhp and lots more torque. Now though, I'm worried that in doing this, I won't be able to have as much fun in the car. Thoughts...? An ABD isn't gonna turn your car into a rocket ship, assuming you are planning to put in in a polo or mk2 golf, you could expect a 0-60 time of around 9 seconds and a top speed of just over a ton. It certainly won't turn your car into a tarmac shredding beast. I've had pretty much engine variation fitted to the 80s/90s polos including the supercharged one and I have to say the polo gt engine is the most fun out of all of them. Just enough power to be fun, but not so much that it makes the car hard work to drive.
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Jul 30, 2013 10:39:28 GMT
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If you want excitement push a Fiat 126 up to 80mph. :S
There are lots of ways to get a good fun car, a low powered go kart type is one way, something with way more power than grip is another.
high powered modern cars are better designed and easier to drive fast thats the problem, go and find an old escort or Viva on drum brakes and crossplies and see how exciting a roundabout is when its wet and you take it at 30mph, us old farts grew up like that. :S
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Jul 30, 2013 10:49:10 GMT
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I'm going to question whether you enjoyed the slowness, or whether you enjoyed the raw basic driving experience? The k10 will have a manual steering rack, it will be light and because it's light and old it wont have overly assisted brakes. On top of that a small capacity engine, which will mean it needs a lighter flywheel and less rotating assembly making it revvy. That small engine needs a short ratio gearbox that you have to work to keep the engine singing in it's power band. A more refined, newer, larger hot hatch is likely to have longer gears for cruising on the motorway, power steering that dulls the response, more sound deadening taking you away from the engine noise, etc. Personally I think as long as you've not lost any of the rawness, then power only makes things more fun till you get to stupid levels (300+hp). Taking my mx5 from 115hp to 230hp only made it more fun, but at the same time I'm now driving a 90hp Lancia, and I really don't 'miss' the extra power. That's not to say that adding more power to the Lancia wouldn't make it more fun..... I've driven 1.0 k11s back to back with 1.3 k11s, and really appreciated the extra power of the 1.3, it didn't change the character of the car. I can't see how fitting a 1.4 to your 1.0 car to gain a few HP wouldn't make it more fun! Especially if you can keep the 1.0 gearbox ratios
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Jul 30, 2013 11:03:26 GMT
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I was thinking about this yesterday after I got a bit over enthusiastic with my daily (6 litre V8 Holden Commodore) and when I went from 1st to 2nd I was already a teeny bit over the limit (60 kmh) so went straight to 5th. Booting it means it gets too fast very quickly - it'll do the limit on the freeway in 3rd.
Basically it is impossible to drive quickly on public roads.
On the other hand, my first car, a 998cc Mini was great fun, even if in reality it was dead slow!
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1982 Mercedes 280TE
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niwid
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,744
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Jul 30, 2013 11:16:23 GMT
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Just hoping for a few opinions... This has got me thinking. I've got a 1.4 ABD sitting in the garage. The plan is to get it in, and with a few other mods, have it running 75-80ish bhp and lots more torque. Now though, I'm worried that in doing this, I won't be able to have as much fun in the car. Thoughts...? An ABD isn't gonna turn your car into a rocket ship, assuming you are planning to put in in a polo or mk2 golf, you could expect a 0-60 time of around 9 seconds and a top speed of just over a ton. It certainly won't turn your car into a tarmac shredding beast. I've had pretty much engine variation fitted to the 80s/90s polos including the supercharged one and I have to say the polo gt engine is the most fun out of all of them. Just enough power to be fun, but not so much that it makes the car hard work to drive. I know it won't be mega quick, but I'm worried I just won't be able to have quite as much fun. It's a 1.05 MK2 Polo, I've done a few minor mods to the 1.0, and it's now really responsive, smooth and pulls a noticeable amount better than standard. It rekon its now around the 50-55bhp mark. I'm planning to run the ABD with a GT cam and a Weber DCD. It wont be mega power, but will have nearly twice the power and torque. Maybe the ABD isn't a step too far, but I'm enjoying the discussion around the general topic!
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randywanger_
Part of things
Nissan Bluebird P510 SSS Coupe
Posts: 946
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Jul 30, 2013 11:35:31 GMT
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This sums the imp up nicely,on a straight road my transit is quicker but get it on a twisty A road and its unreal,its got tarmac suspension, polybushes etc. and just loves corners/roundabouts, all I need now is another 50bhp to make it quick everywhere,not a lot to ask is it? 50bhp will cost loads of money!!!! Engine swap ;-) But going back to the OP. I use to get more enjoyment on track from my DC2 than my RX7.
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EmDee
Club Retro Rides Member
Committer of Autrocities.
Posts: 5,932
Club RR Member Number: 108
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Slow car fast...??EmDee
@emdee
Club Retro Rides Member 108
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Jul 30, 2013 11:35:36 GMT
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Lets say your on a winding country lane, and you want to have a laugh. If your driving, lets say, a BMW M5, or something along those lines, you put your foot hard down and you're going to be doing 120 mph before you can say 'mobile speed camera'. If your really pushing it you will be doing extreme speeds around corners, with very little time for reaction if you, or another driver does something wrong. A lot of the time the slower car can be more dangerous due to poor handling and brakes. The faster car will not usually be on the limit and that limit can be further away than you think. if you've got a lot of power on tap, you can't really drive hard without driving dangerously. I see your point, and you're not entirely wrong, but t here are way more variables in play than you're making out, and it's just not possible to make that sweeping statement.Anyway, as a fellow mk2 polo owner all I have to say is that it does get way better with more power. Mine has about 135 and yes I do have to exercise some restraint, but I don't think you'll be disappointed with your 80 or so.
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niwid
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,744
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Jul 30, 2013 11:39:17 GMT
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Lets say your on a winding country lane, and you want to have a laugh. If your driving, lets say, a BMW M5, or something along those lines, you put your foot hard down and you're going to be doing 120 mph before you can say 'mobile speed camera'. If your really pushing it you will be doing extreme speeds around corners, with very little time for reaction if you, or another driver does something wrong. A lot of the time the slower car can be more dangerous due to poor handling and brakes. The faster car will not usually be on the limit and that limit can be further away than you think. Maybe, but a persons reaction times are the same. In a fast car, you have covered a much longer distance before you realise that the lorry coming the other way is on the wrong side of the road.
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niwid
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,744
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Jul 30, 2013 11:45:16 GMT
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Anyway, as a fellow mk2 polo owner all I have to say is that it does get way better with more power. Mine has about 135 and yes I do have to exercise some restraint, but I don't think you'll be disappointed with your 80 or so. You're probably right tbh. 80bhp isn't going to make it a speed machine is it
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