Duggy
Part of things
Posts: 129 
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Sorry if this has discussed before but can you not just take the block to an old school engine builder/machine shop? About 10 years ago I took seized A+ to a place out near Bromsgrove and for £400 they stripped, dipped, skimmed and rebored it for me, it came back like new, I just had the pleasant job of rebuilding it etc.  |
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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Can't you just use a small immersion heater or heaters dipped into the cylinder(s) adjacent to the stud, and fill the cylinder(s) with fluid to heat up local areas, rather than having to heat the whole block? the engine is all stripped out now. there are no cylinders to dip it in. a few weeks ago I isolated the water-jacket and tried heating water there with a fish-tank heater which is waste of time. The large element I have would definitely heat that water up but wouldn't fit in the limited space. if the whole block isn't warmed it would lose heat as quickly as you put it in |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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Sorry if this has discussed before but can you not just take the block to an old school engine builder/machine shop? About 10 years ago I took seized A+ to a place out near Bromsgrove and for £400 they stripped, dipped, skimmed and rebored it for me, it came back like new, I just had the pleasant job of rebuilding it etc. few issues with that: - V12 is quite a big lump for any engineering shop to get up on a drill press
- I've taken things to pros before who've made them worse and am not taking that chance with this block
- another (much more wealthy than me) V12 owner entrusted his block to a specialist and they ended up just having to drill/destroy the studs. I could try that myself if a more efficient approach doesn't work
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Last Edit: Jul 28, 2021 23:17:57 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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That oven might need a hefty supply. I’d check that before spending money buying and transporting it. You could use the immersion heater indirectly. Put it back in its original cylinder and heat water in that, and pump/thermosyphon it through a coil in the bottom of the dip tank. the original cylinder is damaged and that would be a lot of hassle trying to plumb a coil to the tank. Would be easier to put more water in the tank I reckon. The oven could be 415V I guess but won't find out until the seller replies. If it is I'll just use the cabinet with 240V elements. Been watching lots of videos of ppl making powdercoat ovens and they just fill them with hotplates from hobs and elements from ovens |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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not much of an update but..... re-posting that old pic (above), in reply to glenanderson, I stuck it on a Jag Facebooks page (for s***s and giggles?) and someone replied with a video of themself winding their very tight studs out their V12. The guy was heating the casting from inside the 'jackshaft' tunnel with what looked like a burner attached to a gas bottle. Once the stud moved there was still a hell of a lot of wrenching to be done - which I don't really get. Anyway I contacted him and he replied in English (he's Norwegian) but didn't seem to interested in chatting about it so I don't know exactly what he did but he did confirm he got them all out. In the video the one he was wrestling with was one of the shallow-set ones which I had no issues with. I wanted to know if the deep-set ones were even worse. Back in my world I got my immersion-heater element wired up to the fuse-box in the barn. I finished work in daylight so it was a good time to do it as I was able to cut the supply to the barn off completely whilst I fiddled about in there. Once that was done I cleared all the electrolysis gear from the hot-water tank and plonked my super-safe immersion-heater-on-a-plank-of-wood thing over the tank, switched it on, and was amazed to hear & see some vigorous steaming. I turned it off quickly, in case there was something wrong, and then put it on in longer bursts. Nothing exploded or tripped in the fuse-box. What I did notice after a longer spell tho was that the element was glowing red-hot above the water-line. I guess it needs to be fully submersed in the water to work safely. Seems reasonable but that means the water-level would be up nearer the exposed electrical connections. Next step I guess will be to encapsulate all that in some sort of gunk or resin. Now having typed all that it might not even be pursued as I have found an extremely large electric oven for sale, about 20 miles, away for £350. If I can get that to the barn and stick the block in and warm it to about 150 Celsius they will come out. Now... can you hire vans during lockdown?  It's quite a positive update, thanks Foxy. I'm glad barn electrics have now been upgraded, so whatever options you try going forward that won't be an obstacle. Yeah not sure you will be allowed to pick that oven up during lockdown which is damn annoying  What about trying the approach of the gas burner directly on the studs like the guy on the Jag forum? I mean I know you tried heating the area already and that didn't work, so either he did something slightly different or had no trouble at all with the deep studs? |
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1972 Ford Consul GT - SOLD
1978 Ford Cortina Ghia
1980 Rover V8-S
1993 Toyota Supra
1996 Toyota Camry
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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not much of an update but..... re-posting that old pic (above), in reply to glenanderson, I stuck it on a Jag Facebooks page (for s***s and giggles?) and someone replied with a video of themself winding their very tight studs out their V12. The guy was heating the casting from inside the 'jackshaft' tunnel with what looked like a burner attached to a gas bottle. Once the stud moved there was still a hell of a lot of wrenching to be done - which I don't really get. Anyway I contacted him and he replied in English (he's Norwegian) but didn't seem to interested in chatting about it so I don't know exactly what he did but he did confirm he got them all out. In the video the one he was wrestling with was one of the shallow-set ones which I had no issues with. I wanted to know if the deep-set ones were even worse. Back in my world I got my immersion-heater element wired up to the fuse-box in the barn. I finished work in daylight so it was a good time to do it as I was able to cut the supply to the barn off completely whilst I fiddled about in there. Once that was done I cleared all the electrolysis gear from the hot-water tank and plonked my super-safe immersion-heater-on-a-plank-of-wood thing over the tank, switched it on, and was amazed to hear & see some vigorous steaming. I turned it off quickly, in case there was something wrong, and then put it on in longer bursts. Nothing exploded or tripped in the fuse-box. What I did notice after a longer spell tho was that the element was glowing red-hot above the water-line. I guess it needs to be fully submersed in the water to work safely. Seems reasonable but that means the water-level would be up nearer the exposed electrical connections. Next step I guess will be to encapsulate all that in some sort of gunk or resin. Now having typed all that it might not even be pursued as I have found an extremely large electric oven for sale, about 20 miles, away for £350. If I can get that to the barn and stick the block in and warm it to about 150 Celsius they will come out. Now... can you hire vans during lockdown? It's quite a positive update, thanks Foxy. I'm glad barn electrics have now been upgraded, so whatever options you try going forward that won't be an obstacle. Yeah not sure you will be allowed to pick that oven up during lockdown which is damn annoying What about trying the approach of the gas burner directly on the studs like the guy on the Jag forum? I mean I know you tried heating the area already and that didn't work, so either he did something slightly different or had no trouble at all with the deep studs? My local place is still hiring-out vans (according to website) and I'm self-employed (so am still out and about to earn a living) which might make it do-able but the seller hasn't responded yet anyway. I've messaged him twice. The gas thing was interesting but the Norwegian guy is probably over it now and moved on to other things lol. He did say the block cooled down very quickly so am guessing he had to keep re-heating it |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Delivery drivers are still allowed to work so I guess you could get around the rules based on that, whether it is morally the correct thing to do is another question.
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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Jan 12, 2021 22:45:31 GMT
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I shouldn't really be posting yet, as I was hoping to post an actual success-story, in next few days but..... I've got myself a heat-source which supposedly will go to 300C. I'm not needing to go that high but regardless of how high the thing goes it will only heat the block if I can insulate it in some way. Now I saw a video on YouTube of a guy making an 'oven' out or carboard and foil and getting it up to 100C easy with a hot-air gun. I'm planning to go a bit more upmarket than cardboard but cba spending weeks building a metal box. So.... I was looking at Recticel insulation boards in B&Q tonight these thingsThey are a fiver each and I reckon I could make a box out of them no probs, pop it over the block and heater and have a go on the studs when the block is up to about 120c. The are flammable according to the data sheets but can't see them going on fire at temps like that. Got to be better than cardboard lol |
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Last Edit: Jan 12, 2021 22:46:22 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Jan 12, 2021 22:50:05 GMT
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Couldn't you just use sandbags or similar to surround/insulate the block?
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,880
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Jan 12, 2021 23:41:50 GMT
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To heat a block of metal in a cold place you just want to point infra reds at it.
Another option is trace heating cable.
To get it to 50 C it would be simple enough to sit it inside an insulated cardboard oven with a 2/3KW fan heater blowing into it as the heat source.
Specific heat capacity of Aluminium is 897 J/kg degree C - being a good conductor of heat you will need to heat the whole thing - lets call it 125KG and we want to raise the temperature 50 degrees
897*125*50 = 6MJ which is around 1.7KWhrs excluding losses
Allowing for 50-60% losses I would think a 3KW fan heater blowing into an insulated box with the block inside should raise the block temp 50C in about an hour. Now then any water exposed to heat will expand about 2% for a 50C rise and also be exposed to evaporation losses and if exposed to a 70C plus air flow a lot of evap losses.
Then again I may well be totally of base with what you are now doing.
I think a fish tank heater is about 100W - and usually has a max heat of 30C allowing for 70% heat losses a 100W heater .1KW say 10MJ heat requirement 3KWhr = 30hrs.
Ideally sit it on an insulated sheet of black steel and hang an IR heater over it.
12 x 100W filament bulbs in the bores - they should get it all quite warm in an 8 hour period - If you can still get them - don't try LED it will be nice and bright but that's about it.
Link them all to surface mount water cylinder thermostat - set it to 60C. Wrap in a cylinder insulating jacket and stand back.
Probably weeks behind now and you are on to painting ball joints.
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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Jan 13, 2021 23:22:47 GMT
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Couldn't you just use sandbags or similar to surround/insulate the block? hey. thanks for the suggestion. I don't have any sandbags but did employ about 20 bricks round it tonight. will reveal more shortly |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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Jan 13, 2021 23:26:24 GMT
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To heat a block of metal in a cold place you just want to point infra reds at it. Another option is trace heating cable. To get it to 50 C it would be simple enough to sit it inside an insulated cardboard oven with a 2/3KW fan heater blowing into it as the heat source. Specific heat capacity of Aluminium is 897 J/kg degree C - being a good conductor of heat you will need to heat the whole thing - lets call it 125KG and we want to raise the temperature 50 degrees 897*125*50 = 6MJ which is around 1.7KWhrs excluding losses Allowing for 50-60% losses I would think a 3KW fan heater blowing into an insulated box with the block inside should raise the block temp 50C in about an hour. Now then any water exposed to heat will expand about 2% for a 50C rise and also be exposed to evaporation losses and if exposed to a 70C plus air flow a lot of evap losses. Then again I may well be totally of base with what you are now doing. I think a fish tank heater is about 100W - and usually has a max heat of 30C allowing for 70% heat losses a 100W heater .1KW say 10MJ heat requirement 3KWhr = 30hrs. Ideally sit it on an insulated sheet of black steel and hang an IR heater over it. 12 x 100W filament bulbs in the bores - they should get it all quite warm in an 8 hour period - If you can still get them - don't try LED it will be nice and bright but that's about it. Link them all to surface mount water cylinder thermostat - set it to 60C. Wrap in a cylinder insulating jacket and stand back. Probably weeks behind now and you are on to painting ball joints. Thanks for the extremely useful reply DarkspeedWhen I first read it I was a bit daunted by all the figures but strangely enough after putting my thing into action tonight then re-reading your post some of it was pretty near the mark. Regarding 'where I am' I have put hot water and Alum solution on the back-burner for now and am trying to heat the whole block to loosen the studs - rather than eat them away with the Alum. Anyway. I got 3 moving tonight and will post more about it after a bite to eat. Just got home from barn  |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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So what happened? Well the person selling the large oven on Ebay (£350) didn't respond, but am pretty sure it would've been 415V/3-phase anyway. I then saw a commercial hotplate for sale on Facebook at £150. Messaged the guy twice and got no answer so was getting a little ticked-off. I wanted to at least know if it was 240V and also rough dimensions. I saw the guy put same ad on Gumtree for £130 so messaged again and eventually got reply. he said it was 29" by 19" which is pretty close to size of the block. It didn't actually matter as much being a hotplate because the block wouldn't need to go in it but. Anyway I picked it up the other night. It was small enough to fit in boot. Guy plugged it in before I paid. It didn't exactly burn my hand off but looking at same model online it goes to 300C. So today I spent another £15 on insulation boards. Made a box to go over it, which is also very easy to lift off. When I was thinking of getting an oven I was wondering how I'd get it out once it was hot. I didn't buy enough boards to cover the height as had to account for the machine plus a couple of bars to sit the block on so the weight isn't right on the hotplate. Would be better if it was I guess but might break it. I warmed it up gradually as I didn't want to burn the elements out straight away and sticking my thermometer thing in the side the air didn't seem to be getting above 40C/50c After mb an hour I took the top off and sprayed WD40 on the studs (I'd earlier on welded nuts on to the 3 I planned to deal with) and was amazed to feel (and hear) 1 move with the breaker-bar on it. I was soon moving the 3 (on RHS bank) equally. I'd say they moved a full turn but soon the action stopped. Possibly the block cooling down. I covered it up again and this time plonked a bit ply on top to stop heat escaping thru gaps. After I was getting about 70C on the probe I took the cover off and got a bit more movement on all 3 but the nuts started to come loose on 2. I think the one where the nuts held has turned mb 3 full revolutions. That was enough for one night and I finished off by tapping out all the liners in the RHS bank. Well 2 were already out but I'd left any that didn't drift out easily. With a bit heat in the block they came out with just a few bumps with a block of wood. So tomorrow I'll work on these again. I reckon if block got up to 100C it would be a breeze. Tonight was prob 60C. The alloy was hot enough to make you take your hand away but not burning-hot. I'll mb wrap it in foil. As for the weight of the block (will be lighter with 4 liners out). I can lift it off the deck. It's not 125KG. Mb 50KG? I've mentioned before about the fact 5 studs are deep-set in the block. Well I noticed another slight difference. Of these 5 the 3 on the RHS bank are only say 1cm from the jackshaft tunnel. ie the block is about 1cm thick around them so it would be a good place the warm the block with a gas torch. The other 2 (LH bank) that I've been wrestling with for years have a thick machined area that I didn't really notice before. I don't think it'll make much difference if you are warming the whole block but might be relevant if you were heating from the js tunnel I've never really bothered tackling the 3 on the RH bank before as I figured they wouldn't budge if the 2 on other bank didn't. Am sure I'll get these 3 out then it's back to the LH bank. One of these is much shorter than the others as I heatit it with oxy-acetylene before and it just broke. There is enough left to work with tho  what's in the box hotplate found on Gumtree for £130 steel bars on bricks give something to sit block on RHS bank had 4 liners and 3 studs to remove  casting between jackshaft tunnel and RHS studs in not very thick slightly different at 2 stuck studs on LH bank centre stud on LH bank snapped but it is on other side of castingNB sorry about the poor pics but it was smoky and cold in barn and I wasn't wasting too much time with camera-settings while block cooled down Another slight bummer is once you weld the nuts you can't really re-weld them. I think I bought a pack of 10 but 2 ruined tonight and only saw 5 I think. That means a day turning the barn upside down trying to find them |
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Last Edit: Jul 28, 2021 23:20:18 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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That looks brilliant but I think I may just get them out with what I've got. Fingers crossed. I haven't earned a bean all month and it's been a tenner here, £16 there, £130 there. All on the credit card and all on 'projects' so am trying to avid any more purchases |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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That's great news Foxy. I too hope with a couple more attempts you can have those 3 studs on the RHS out. In a way it was a stroke of luck that the guy selling the oven didn't reply. The hotplate is cheaper and more effective. As you pointed you wouldn't have been able to move the block out of the oven whilst it is hot
Regarding your previous attempts with oxy-acetylene. You heated only the studs themselves, right? Well I wonder if you would of had better results heating the side of the block that you pictured? Sounds similar to what that guy from Norway was doing. I imagine you'd need to heat it up for a few minutes to give you 1-2 minutes to move the stud before needing to re-applying heat as it dissipates in the rest of the block. So would take a lot of attempts maybe. So maybe this way is better not sure?
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1972 Ford Consul GT - SOLD
1978 Ford Cortina Ghia
1980 Rover V8-S
1993 Toyota Supra
1996 Toyota Camry
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Jan 14, 2021 10:14:49 GMT
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I'd heat it on the hot plate first as this won't put any great stress on the block, if that fails heat it on the hot plate and quench the stud with some freeze spray, only if that doesn't work would I locally heat the block and even then if I did use oxy acetylene, I'd go for a very soft flame or use a blowlamp.
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,971
Club RR Member Number: 71
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Jan 14, 2021 10:53:56 GMT
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It really is amazing what a little heat will do - enjoying the journey - thanks for sharing
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Jan 14, 2021 11:06:52 GMT
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Good news to hear you're finally making some progress with them. Probably teaching you to suck eggs, but it's best to wind them in and out, gradually teasing them out a few threads at a time rather than just trying to unwind them.
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,454
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Jan 14, 2021 23:57:55 GMT
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Good news to hear you're finally making some progress with them. Probably teaching you to suck eggs, but it's best to wind them in and out, gradually teasing them out a few threads at a time rather than just trying to unwind them. I would normally do that but these aren't moving quickly enough to move them back and forth. Each jerk takes time to position myself to stop the block moving while I pull on the bar and the thing is losing heat as soon as the box is off |
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Last Edit: Jul 28, 2021 23:24:39 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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What about trying the approach of the gas burner directly on the studs like the guy on the Jag forum? I mean I know you tried heating the area already and that didn't work, so either he did something slightly different or had no trouble at all with the deep studs?
