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May 23, 2011 15:11:28 GMT
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So who is guessing how the future legislation will work now then ? Good afternoon *****. I'm not sure if this is your area of expertise ,if not could you please pass it along to the relevant department please ? If a vehicle qualifies for Historic Classification, by virtue of its date of manufacture, can it chose to be taxed as PLG instead or does its date of manufacture preclude that choice ? cheers Kev Rooney ACE Admin Team Good Afternoon Mr Rooney Pre 1973 vehicles which qualify for ‘Historic’ road tax must be licensed as such. Regards ***** Casework &Specialist Advice Zone1/D16 Policy and External Communication
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Last Edit: May 23, 2011 15:13:23 GMT by kapri
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spiny
Club Retro Rides Member
Wiki Admin
I am abivalent towards car electrics ...
Posts: 1,331
Club RR Member Number: 167
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May 23, 2011 15:30:14 GMT
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So who is guessing how the future legislation will work now then ? Good afternoon *****. I'm not sure if this is your area of expertise ,if not could you please pass it along to the relevant department please ? If a vehicle qualifies for Historic Classification, by virtue of its date of manufacture, can it chose to be taxed as PLG instead or does its date of manufacture preclude that choice ? cheers Kev Rooney ACE Admin Team Good Afternoon Mr Rooney Pre 1973 vehicles which qualify for ‘Historic’ road tax must be licensed as such. Regards ***** Casework &Specialist Advice Zone1/D16 Policy and External Communication The vehicle details for AAE 379J are: Date of Liability 01 12 1979 Date of First Registration 28 10 1970 Year of Manufacture 1970 Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1275CC CO2 Emissions Not Available Fuel Type Petrol Export Marker Not Applicable Vehicle Status Unlicensed Vehicle Colour YELLOW Vehicle Type Approval Vehicle Excise Duty Rate for vehicle 6 Months Rate £71.50 12 Months Rate £130.00
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May 23, 2011 16:00:23 GMT
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Date of liability 01 12 1979
Vehicle has not been on road since then ( according to DVLA ) so not registered as Historic and is shown under current PLG rates.
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May 23, 2011 16:01:03 GMT
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Is it National Pedant Day or something ?
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spiny
Club Retro Rides Member
Wiki Admin
I am abivalent towards car electrics ...
Posts: 1,331
Club RR Member Number: 167
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May 23, 2011 16:03:40 GMT
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Date of liability 01 12 1979 Vehicle has not been on road since then ( according to DVLA ) so not registered as Historic and is shown under current PLG rates. ^ that is at odds with this v Pre 1973 vehicles which qualify for ‘Historic’ road tax must be licensed as such.
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May 23, 2011 16:06:52 GMT
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But it hasn't been on the road ,since the introduction of Historic , according to DVLA records ?
They'll be cars out with a with tax rate of £12 .17/6d still!!
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Last Edit: May 23, 2011 16:07:52 GMT by kapri
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,538
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May 23, 2011 16:30:21 GMT
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Date of liability 01 12 1979 Vehicle has not been on road since then ( according to DVLA ) so not registered as Historic and is shown under current PLG rates. ^ that is at odds with this v Pre 1973 vehicles which qualify for ‘Historic’ road tax must be licensed as such. If that car returns to the road under current regulations it will automatically get put into Historic. You have no choice. You could walk into a post office and pay for the tax once it is MOTd and insured but would then receive a new V5c in the post a little while later with the class changed and a cheque for the amount you have paid. I've done it (with a moped). That is what happened.
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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May 23, 2011 16:48:33 GMT
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Oh no you haven't ;D
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May 23, 2011 16:58:29 GMT
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Chaps, I admit I haven't read up on all the literature that's at play here and as such I'm not fully aware of all the implications the joining the EU lwas will have and how it will sit with our current laws and the'mechanical freedom' we currently have, but I wanted to say top work. Have yourselves a virtual beer, and if I can sort out the vibrating viva before RRG, then maybe a real one may roll out of the cooler box your way Ciao and Kudos
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Last Edit: May 23, 2011 16:58:50 GMT by manbearpig
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,538
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May 23, 2011 17:37:25 GMT
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Oh no you haven't ;D Oh yes I have! ;D Since the tax was only £25 or something it wasn't worth a morning of my time queuing at the local office to get the class changed and pick up a historic disc. Instead I ended up having an argument with the Post Office clerk about whether I was going to get a fine or not because it wasn't previously on a SORN She even phoned the DVLA but didn't give them the rather relevant piece of information that it had been off the road since 1989 or something.
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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May 23, 2011 19:40:21 GMT
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So who is guessing how the future legislation will work now then ? Good afternoon *****. I'm not sure if this is your area of expertise ,if not could you please pass it along to the relevant department please ? If a vehicle qualifies for Historic Classification, by virtue of its date of manufacture, can it chose to be taxed as PLG instead or does its date of manufacture preclude that choice ? cheers Kev Rooney ACE Admin Team Good Afternoon Mr Rooney Pre 1973 vehicles which qualify for ‘Historic’ road tax must be licensed as such. Regards ***** Casework &Specialist Advice Zone1/D16 Policy and External Communication That's all very well, but it doesn't address the point I made because it assumes that date of manufacture is the deciding factor on Historic classification. That's true at the moment but, if the FIVA definition is adopted throughout Europe (which is what the fears are), then it will only be one factor of several required. The vehicle will also have to be essentially original and not in daily use. If it's modified, it won't be Historic, so it'll be PLG by default. If it's in daily use it won't be historic, so it'll be PLG by default. The real worry should be that the EU introduce directives severely limiting the use of historic vehicles on safety or environmental grounds but then don't adopt a definition like the FIVA one which excludes dailies and modifieds from Historic status.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,928
Club RR Member Number: 174
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^^^There is no current evidence to support your point.
As it stands currently if your car is in the Historic taxation class you cannot opt to change it to PLG and pay road tax.
Nobody knows what will happen if the FIVA definition is brought into law. They might make it so that all cars that are no longer classed as historic become PLG by default. However they might not. Nobody would know until the law had been passed and the regulations came out, by which time it is far too late.
The reason that this proposal needs fighting is that WE DO NOT KNOW what the repercussions will be. If there was a big EU crystal ball and there was 100% certainty that previously Historic cars that no longer fit the definition would become PLG by default it wouldn't be a massive problem. Yes a lot of people would have to pay road tax, but that's not a bad thing in the grand scheme of things. However we don't have a crystal ball, so it's better to fight now rather than hedging our bets on what will happen later.
Matt
Matt
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As it stands its just the date that determine if a car comes under historical classification, but under any system that requires it to meets certain criteria it would have to go through what I would imagine would be some extensive test to prove it meets these criteria, so it would very much have to be an 'opt in' situation if you wanted it to be classed as historic. My Chevette was built in 1981 and as such isn't classed as historic but it does have a classification on the log book (not sure what as I still haven't received it ). so if this system was brought in my car would be eligible for historic class under the rolling 30 year rule, but if I don't 'opt in' then my car is still classed as what ever it is now. The only way this could ever work is if you think your car should be historic then you apply for it and your car is tested to see if it meets the strict criteria. if you don't apply for it then are you saying that they will take away my cars current classification because I haven't applied to have it classed as a classic? You say there won't be a class for my car but there clearly is as it already has one
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Last Edit: May 24, 2011 8:35:32 GMT by roccoguy
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^^^There is no current evidence to support your point. As it stands currently if your car is in the Historic taxation class you cannot opt to change it to PLG and pay road tax. Nobody knows what will happen if the FIVA definition is brought into law. They might make it so that all cars that are no longer classed as historic become PLG by default. However they might not. Nobody would know until the law had been passed and the regulations came out, by which time it is far too late. The reason that this proposal needs fighting is that WE DO NOT KNOW what the repercussions will be. If there was a big EU crystal ball and there was 100% certainty that previously Historic cars that no longer fit the definition would become PLG by default it wouldn't be a massive problem. Yes a lot of people would have to pay road tax, but that's not a bad thing in the grand scheme of things. However we don't have a crystal ball, so it's better to fight now rather than hedging our bets on what will happen later. Matt Matt Yes there IS evidence to support my point. It's called the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (as amended) Section 2, and Schedules 1 and 2. This is the law which specifies which category vehicles fall into and it's already set up so that anything that doesn't fit a defined category comes under the "general rate". All FIVA are suggesting is changing the definition of Historic to something that our cars wouldn't fit. So they would become "General rate", the same as any other car registered before 1st March 2001.
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It's much further reaching than that . We can only base assumptions on how the system works elswhere in Europe already compared to our own. The minutia doesn't really matter it is the general principle of the Historic Classification and it's possible effect. Lets not get drawn away from the bigger picture . If we do not make the fact that we exist known our voices will be ignored. Check out how Historic can affect daily use in Germany ,not forgetting that they do not have a 8 points system that ALLOWS vehicles to be modified , Historic or not. www.the-ace.org.uk/update-tightening-of-emissions-in-germany.html?searched=germany&highlight=ajaxSearch_highlight+ajaxSearch_highlight1FBHVC have already cut lose regularly driven vehicles ( as per FIVAs definition) yet also say they do not support restrictions on vehicle usage but are not supporting their members who actually do use theirs regularly.
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May 24, 2011 13:58:48 GMT
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I love the worry worts who are consumed with whether or not they will look "foolish" if they write a letter. Yeah. You just go ahead and keep introspecting and self-examining while your car rights are dissolved. Great strategy. Almost as great a strategy as confining your activities to letter-writing.
Let's see how would letter-writing have worked back in 1776? "Dear King George, Could you please consider....." ;D
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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May 24, 2011 14:45:19 GMT
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I love the worry worts who are consumed with whether or not they will look "foolish" if they write a letter. Yeah. You just go ahead and keep introspecting and self-examining while your car rights are dissolved. Great strategy. Almost as great a strategy as confining your activities to letter-writing. Let's see how would letter-writing have worked back in 1776? "Dear King George, Could you please consider....." ;D who's being a worry wort? and who's "consumed with whether or not they will look "foolish" if they write a letter"? i know for sure i'm not "self-examining while your car rights are dissolved" i'm questioning whether my rights are even being "dissolved". the way i see it i'll be no worse off if this comes in than i am now, with my car being modified even tho it would fall into the 30 year rolling bracket it wouldn't be classed as historic, just like it isn't now.
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May 24, 2011 15:05:10 GMT
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I love the worry worts who are consumed with whether or not they will look "foolish" if they write a letter. Yeah. You just go ahead and keep introspecting and self-examining while your car rights are dissolved. Great strategy. Almost as great a strategy as confining your activities to letter-writing. Let's see how would letter-writing have worked back in 1776? "Dear King George, Could you please consider....." ;D Hope you're not including me in the "worry worts" cos that's certainly not the point I was making. There are so many problems with this proposed definition without concocting inaccurate scares based on huge assumptions (that they'd change the whole of VERA, for instance, just to introduce a revised definition of Historic). My point was simply that, no matter how good your case may be, the professional lobbyists who might like to see use of our cars restricted will happily pounce on one OTT claim to trash the whole case. Because they're professionals and that's what they do. So better to fight this sort of thing on the incontrovertible facts like: Interference with national culture contrary to Article 3() of the Lisbon Treaty: What historical significance a State may, or may not, place on a particular object is an inherently cultural matter. Logically, it doesn't matter whether that object is a religious text, a nationally important building, the decision whether or not it's "historic" is a matter of cultural identity. Breach of Article 1 of Protocol 1 of the ECHR, Protection of Property: The peaceful enjoyment of private property can only be interfered with "in the public interest". In common with any exceptions to the ECHR, any such interference must be proportional to the identified risk. The real-world safety risk of old cars compared to new is demonstrably nil (hence lower premiums for "classics", insurance companies aren't known for geting risk calculations wrong), the environmental "risk" is minimal at worst, and they pose a net economic benefit to society. So the permissible interference is none, beyond what is already in place for cars generally (ie: requirements for insurance, roadworthiness requirements and possibly road tax). They might be justified in re-introducing road tax for pre-73 models but everyone keeps claiming the objections aren't based on losing the free tax, so that's not an issue, is it? The impossibility of effectively policing such a definition: Pretty well self-explanatory really. The increase in bureaucracy (and, hence, cost) required to even attempt to police this would be out of all proportion to any possible benefit. How do you (accurately) ascertain annual mileages without modifying the vehicle with tamper-proof electronics, thereby rendering it unoriginal? Who exactly to do you consult to see whether a particular example is "historically accurate"? I've no doubt there are plenty of users on here with modified cars that are bending the 8 points rules to breaking point already, yet it generally isn't a problem. If they can't police obvious mods like that, how are they ever going to keep track of what's "historically correct" or not on the 100s of thousands of classics out there? Hell, when it comes to our Daf 32 and 33 I'm probably one of the most knowledgeable in the country by now so I guess they'll have to ask me if my own cars are accurate? Then there's the costs of administering such a definition. All of the inspections, reports and tracking required are going to cost. A lot. The people who would bear that cost are either the State (politically bad move there) or those with "real" classics who wish to have them registered as such. I may be wrong, but somehow I can't see Lord Montague being happy at having his entire road-going collection undergoing an in-depth inspection each year to ensure it's still "original"? But the thing with laws is, they're universal so if I need that inspection for my Daf, so does he on all of his. So, plenty of points to attack the proposal on without resorting to scares that can be shown inaccurate with 5 minutes of Googling "VERA"
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May 24, 2011 17:06:01 GMT
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Yup, they are professionals and ACE isn't . All we are doing is trying to raise awareness of these proposals , let the legislators know there is a contrary point of view meanwhile and also trying to get our manufacturers and suppliers woken up to fund professional lobbying.
After all there are so many people who are concerned and created organisations to try to watch our automotive freedom that you can't go anywhere without tripping over them.
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Last Edit: May 24, 2011 17:06:48 GMT by kapri
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May 24, 2011 19:15:25 GMT
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Yup, they are professionals and ACE isn't . All we are doing is trying to raise awareness of these proposals , let the legislators know there is a contrary point of view meanwhile and also trying to get our manufacturers and suppliers woken up to fund professional lobbying. After all there are so many people who are concerned and created organisations to try to watch our automotive freedom that you can't go anywhere without tripping over them. Honestly can't fault you guys for that, and sorry if my first pst came across as a dig - it really wasn't meant that way. With the FBHVC taking a contradictory stance of "use however you want as long as it's not daily" and FIVA, frankly, living on their own planet where they seem to value provenance and celebrity connections more than the car itself (cultural difference maybe?), both seem to be more interested in "investment" collectors rather than people who appreciate cars for what they are. In that context, ACE do an amazing job of providing a voice for real enthusiasts!
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