|
|
Oct 17, 2008 15:03:36 GMT
|
some of you guys may already be aware of this but take a minute to read through some of this stuff - it involves us all www.the-ace.org.uk/time has come to band together whatever we drive to try and stop this !!
|
|
Last Edit: Oct 17, 2008 15:03:53 GMT by 71bugslug
|
|
|
dan95x
Part of things
Posts: 353
|
|
Oct 17, 2008 15:24:23 GMT
|
Something I just read at work: (Sorry to copy it all in, you can only read it if you have a membership)
UK: RAC calls for scrapping incentives 17 October 2008 | Source: just-auto.com editorial team
A scheme to encourage the scrapping of old cars to increase the rate at which motorists trade them for newer, more fuel-efficient models, could achieve environmental benefits according to new research by the Royal Automobile Club (RAC) Foundation.
The report, Car Ownership in Great Britain, concluded that financial encouragement for car owners to scrap older vehicles could encourage fleet renewal, but intervention must be done carefully if the vehicle market is not to be distorted.
"The report relates to use of vehicles but policy must also take account of the environmental implications involved in the manufacture of new vehicles," the RAC said.
The research showed that in the UK, to reduce emissions, the ideal age to incentivise car scrappage would be for 17-18-year-old cars. Such a scheme would remove most of the last non-catalytic converter-equipped cars [mandatory here from the K-registration prefix in August 1992 - ed].
"Incentivising the scrappage of younger cars would only result in payment being made for cars which are going to be scrapped in large numbers anyway," the RAC said.
Encouraging motorists to switch to newer models is a vital part of the fight to cut carbon emissions from road transport, the organisation added.
"The average new car emits 3.8% less carbon than just 12 months ago (158.6g/km, down from 164.9g/km at the end of 2007) and 16.4% less than the in 1997 (189.8g/km).
"Despite this, tax changes announced in the March budget, including the introduction of a 'showroom tax', will make buying a new vehicle more expensive. The treasury's decision to raise vehicle excise duty (colloquially known here in the UK as 'road tax) retrospectively also increases the financial burden of owning the more fuel-hungry older cars, leaving motorists stuck with inefficient vehicles," the RAC added.
The credit crunch was also slowing the rate at which people buy new cars, with sales falling for the last five months.
The RAC Foundation said a carefully-designed scrappage scheme would bring the double benefit of boosting the new and second hand car industry, while helping to make road transport 'greener' by removing the most-polluting vehicles from the road.
According to the report, cars are scrapped for four main reasons: too expensive to repair, accident damged, not worth much or stopped working
Scrapped cars are not normally replaced by brand new models, but by vehicles typically three to four years younger than the ones scrapped. A vehicle purchased brand new typically replaces a three year old car which has been traded in on the basis of age and mileage. Most new cars are traded in within four years.
The Foundation commissioned the report after scrappage was recommended by the government's Environmental Audit Committee as a means of encouraging "lower income households ... to trade in their cars for low emission replacements," in order to offer an informed contribution to the debate.
Schemes can offer payments not linked to further action by the car owner, or payments conditional on purchase of a less-polluting newer car.
The RAC report concluded that in the UK, it would not be necessary to link the incentive to buying a new car as the natural dynamics of the car market would lead to the owners buying a car three or four years younger than the one scrapped, which in turn would lead to a ripple effect of car purchases up the age chain of the vehicle parc.
The Foundation rejected the alternatives of higher taxes on older cars, calculated on the basis of their emissions; or more rigorous annual inspection routines which would make older cars more expensive to maintain, as these would place a heavier financial burden on the owners of older cars, who tend to be on lower incomes in the first place.
RAC Foundation director Stephen Glaister said: "Making it affordable for motorists to scrap clapped-out cars and opt instead for a cleaner, more fuel-efficient and more reliable vehicle could be a way for the government to support greener motoring.
"This study identifies a number of countries that have tried scrappage schemes and offers important new evidence to help design a balanced and effective scheme for Britain. This is an essential ingredient of a proper 'dust-to-dust' emissions assessment.
"Motorists can't afford to be on the receiving end of another muddled, poorly thought out scheme like the VED proposals unveiled in March. Any scrappage scheme should be further researched before implementation in order to benefit the environment, motorists and manufacturers, without distorting the market."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2008 15:41:37 GMT
|
Based on what I've seen in the USA and Europe, most car guys either won't believe it or be arrsed to lift a pen until the rollback trucks start coming out to begin the cubing. People who are worried about this are pigeonholed as paranoids, and thus effective advocacy is rarely ever mounted for the little guy. This is how rights are lost. Incrementally. And we do it to ourselves, by inaction and disbelief and conformism.
|
|
Last Edit: Oct 17, 2008 15:42:13 GMT by Team Blitz
Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
|
|
|
doom BenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
|
Oct 17, 2008 16:09:27 GMT
|
That ACE thing is years old, I thought it had all died away and we were OK?
And I think that these "proposals" get blown out of all proportion by the media. It's merely an idea. I'm sure many companies like to propose ideas that benefit them and change the behaviour of customers. A proposal made by a company is a million miles away from being made law.
|
|
|
|
|
doom BenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
|
Oct 17, 2008 16:14:25 GMT
|
I'm not saying that everything's fine and we shouldn't be wary of the threats to our hobby, but the problem is people go off half-cocked and make some petition based on something they read on the internet, presents the two thousand signatures on the "STOP TEH GUBBERMINT MAKIN US CRUSH ALL TEH OLD CARZ AN BUY TEH NEW ONEZ" and we all look like a bunch of chumps, and it devalues our credibility when something does need to be opposed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2008 16:24:57 GMT
|
i dunno, i reckon its worth taking notice of - after all, thats prob what the retro guys in Dubai thought
|
|
|
|
|
doom Paul H
@amazonsprite
|
Oct 17, 2008 16:25:34 GMT
|
That ACE thing is years old, I thought it had all died away and we were OK? Yes, but the way it works is that the govt puts forward an idea that scares everyone. There's uproar so they instead introduce a very watered down version (this was their aim to begin with) & we all think "What a lucky escape". And then it all starts again. Look at what happened with road pricing. Despite the public uproar, they are slowly & quietly pushing ahead. That site may be accurate, it may not, but we are certainly right to be VERY wary. There is already the technology and infrastructure in place and in use to enforce the outlawing of certain types of vehicles from large sections of the road network, including London. Currently it's only aimed at large diesel vehicles over a certain age but all it takes is the political will for it to be aimed at old cars. I'm sure many companies like to propose ideas that benefit them and change the behaviour of customers. A proposal made by a company is a million miles away from being made law. However they have a much bigger voice than us, and know who to talk to. Also in the wider scope of things, they can easily be construed as representing the motorist.
|
|
Last Edit: Oct 17, 2008 16:26:55 GMT by Paul H
|
|
sky
Part of things
Posts: 164
|
|
Oct 17, 2008 19:00:19 GMT
|
The worst thing you have over there is that evil mot !!!!! Nothing like that over here in the states , THANK GOD !!!!!
|
|
|
|
ThePollitt
Posted a lot
Fix up, look... at that car on eBay!
Posts: 4,696
|
|
Oct 17, 2008 19:31:39 GMT
|
Scaremongering (if that's how you spell it).
I accept there is going to be change, it's a given, but I don't care about any notions of "they'll take your car if they want to" because they won't. End of.
I know we all like to think we're living in some 'big brother' '1984' type scenario, but we're not. It's not good, granted, but it's not that bad yet. And I, by my very nature, am a worrier but I'm not about to weigh the Mitsi in so I can conform.
People like us, and cars like ours will always be about because of people like us and cars like ours.
Stop getting all worked up about change, it's inevitable, deal with it. Instead, stockpile your parts and enjoy your cars. They're not going to tax us off the roads, they'll just make it a bit more difficult for us, but not impossible.
Our passion is too strong, and our number is too large. Yes, TB might be right in that we'll leave it to the last minute, and we will. But we'll come out the other side, in our masses, smelling of four star wearing grins on our faces.
These aren't just cars, they're an extention of our very being, they are US. So stop whining about proposed changes, no one will take your car from you, no one will rob you of what you love. This is real life, not prison, so chill out and do me a favour, convert all that energy used for worrying, into energy used on enjoying your car....because even if I'm wrong, would you rather look back and wish you did something, or would you rather look back think "f*ck it, it enjoyed it to the very last moment."?
Chris
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2008 19:45:34 GMT
|
This really P's me off, and all the curse word the govenment are saying, where do they expect us all to get the money for a new (no character) car!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Raoul Duke
Part of things
Posts: 990
Club RR Member Number: 117
|
doom Raoul Duke
@raoulduke
Club Retro Rides Member 117
|
Oct 17, 2008 20:46:48 GMT
|
even if I'm wrong, would you rather look back and wish you did something, or would you rather look back think "f*ck it, it enjoyed it to the very last moment."? The man speaks the truth.
|
|
...a redder shade of neck on a whiter shade of trash...
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2008 21:05:47 GMT
|
Why do some people get their kicks from being 'Doom-mongers'?
Why are we worrying about this? If they take all old cars off the road people will just spend more time making new cars look old. If they ban engines that run on fossil fuel people will start tuning their electric motors or hydrogen power packs. If they ban cars we will start hotting up our pedal bikes! There will always be a way!
We have to accept politicians know being green means votes. Being green is drummed into our kids at skool, its on the news every day. If you want more votes knock the motorist. Despite the fact even if we all stopped using cars, planes, electricity and big bottles of fabric softner it wouldnt make the slightest bit of interest because China and Russia cannot build coal power stations fast enough.
According to the media, even if we survive the credit crunch, global warming, terror attacks, daring to eat fat or sugar we are all gonna be shot by toddlers in hoodies eating crack laced rusks. So why worry?
Turn all the tellies on, fire up the patio heaters, smoke in public and go out and ride in the retro! Before someone bans it!
|
|
|
|
bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
|
|
Oct 17, 2008 21:53:56 GMT
|
As far as i can see thats jsut a way to ecourage people to scrap older cars not force them to, don't see hwat there is to worry about they aint gonna be forcing anyone to do anything
|
|
R.I.P photobucket
|
|
bazboy
Part of things
Jetta - Its like a golf but better.....
Posts: 481
|
|
|
Look on the bright side if this does happen well all have a great excuse to roam the highways mad max style and create havoc But seriously it would be hard for the government to ban old cars unless they intended to give us new ones in return, and how are they ever going to afford that, what they would probably do is make mot's harder to pass just like in japan.
|
|
1986 - VW Jetta GT 16v 1986 - Volvo 340 1991 - Volvo 460
|
|
|
|
|
interesting views on the subject and i really hope your all right and nothing ever comes of it but it IS happening around the world, who's to say it wont happen here ?? www.automiddleeast.com/auto-news/uae-old-car-ban-from-january-2009www.automiddleeast.com/auto-news/traffic-license-old-cars-bannot looking to start a massive row about it, thats just pointless just think we should all keep our eyes wide open to any "proposed" rules as if they want them to - they will happen remember fox hunting ? smoking in pubs ? poll tax ?? the country had an opposing voice on all of those subjects but was it loud enough to be heard oh, on a lighter note, its looking like that in Dubai your Aston/ RR/ Lambo etc is automaticly put into the "classic" exemption class so its only the more normal stuff thats gonna be shafted - read the type of cars we all own make up your own minds and draw your own conclusions to it all, but fore warned is fore armed as they say stay lucky
|
|
|
|
|
doom BenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
|
|
I totally agree 71bugslug - we really have to watch out for threats to our hobby. I hadn't heard about the ban happening in the UAE - that's pretty scary. Not the most liberal nation, admittedly, but then neither is the UK in a lot of ways, some would say. I'd be interested to see how they define "classics" that they propose will be exempted.
I just think that there is a lot of "noise" when it comes to this subject, and the petition against road pricing is a good example - the petition wasn't well targeted and the government ignored the huge amount of signatures because they hadn't actually decided that they were going ahead with it. I don't think they should have ignored it, particularly on such a "technicality" but I can't help but think that the wind has been taken out of the sails of any future campaingns when they do forge ahead with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2008 10:18:34 GMT
|
it's looking gloomy over there aint it maybe RetroRides could consider this .......... www.the-ace.org.uk/link-to-us.htmlas i said before, whatever we drive we really should try and stick together on this, we have a voice - we just need to join together and make it a real loud one and if nothing does happen then its only a bit of egg on the face but if it does !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! food for thought eh be good folks
|
|
|
|
jikovron
Part of things
mechanical chaos
Posts: 633
|
|
Oct 18, 2008 10:27:02 GMT
|
personally i don't take any notice of new rules regarding old cars,,,,,,,yeah they migh get pissy about how long you can keep a car running but i'll continue with my old wheels regardless
and anyhow if suddenly the gov't wanted you to scrap youre ten year and over car with no negotiation, it wouldnt stop the vast magority of the old car community staging a potest by means of using the M25 as a car park or other (that UAE law is very unlikely to encourage our gov't anyway) ,,,,,,,,,so indeed it'll just come down to making it more hassle to run them with little changes to MOT standards,,,,,,,,,,,nothing the great minds on this and other forum's cant overcome
but protesting over plans that don't exist might be abit unproffessional,,,,,rather gather the factual resources for if a protest is needed
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2008 10:45:44 GMT
|
but the ace isnt a protest group, its potentially all of our voices "should" any proposals come to light that will disrupt our hobby, doesn't matter if you have a mint E-type or a tatty bug or mini we will all suffer "if" any major changes happen, and as for protests ? anyone remember the national public outrage (not by comparison just a small handfull of car nuts) about the poll tax ?? protests turned into riots, anarchy (almost) ruled but for what ? oh yeah - they changed the name to council tax and the petrol protests - what did that gain us ?? as said before, I'm not looking to start any rows here about this, just trying to make more people aware what could happen before it's too late, peace
|
|
|
|
|
doom Paul H
@amazonsprite
|
Oct 18, 2008 10:47:10 GMT
|
Scaremongering (if that's how you spell it). I accept there is going to be change, it's a given, but I don't care about any notions of "they'll take your car if they want to" because they won't. End of. I know we all like to think we're living in some 'big brother' '1984' type scenario, but we're not. It's not good, granted, but it's not that bad yet. And I, by my very nature, am a worrier but I'm not about to weigh the Mitsi in so I can conform. People like us, and cars like ours will always be about because of people like us and cars like ours. Stop getting all worked up about change, it's inevitable, deal with it. Instead, stockpile your parts and enjoy your cars. They're not going to tax us off the roads, they'll just make it a bit more difficult for us, but not impossible. Our passion is too strong, and our number is too large. Yes, TB might be right in that we'll leave it to the last minute, and we will. But we'll come out the other side, in our masses, smelling of four star wearing grins on our faces. These aren't just cars, they're an extention of our very being, they are US. So stop whining about proposed changes, no one will take your car from you, no one will rob you of what you love. This is real life, not prison, so chill out and do me a favour, convert all that energy used for worrying, into energy used on enjoying your car....because even if I'm wrong, would you rather look back and wish you did something, or would you rather look back think "f*ck it, it enjoyed it to the very last moment."? Chris Actually we are heading rapidly in the direction of 1984, and at a far quicker rate than any other Western nation. However if I explain why that will take us seriously off topic... They won't necessarily physically remove your car, but they can easily make using it legally on the public highway very difficult. As previously explained, the infrastructure is already there in places like London. The FBHVC are only of very limited use in this situation as they couldn't care less about modified cars or younger / modern classics. They are also backing themselves into a corner regarding limited usage of 'classic' vehicles. Look at how mileages are being recorded at MOTs. Now the system is computerised, it is only a matter of pressing a few buttons for the database to produce accurate data regarding age / pollution levels of vehicle vs annual mileage. Combine this with road pricing & it's very easy for annual mileage limitations to be enforced, and in the case of road pricing, to enforce limitations on usage (eg weekends / show use only). Now whether that enforcement is actually by way of legal process ie over X miles pa is illegal - here's a fat fine etc, or just by making the cost per mile via road pricing prohibitive is another matter. Part of the original road pricing scheme was to charge different vehicles at different rates. Do we really think that our cars will get preferential rates, rather than just being thrown onto the high emission categories?? interesting views on the subject and I really hope your all right and nothing ever comes of it but it IS happening around the world, who's to say it wont happen here ?? www.automiddleeast.com/auto-news/uae-old-car-ban-from-january-2009www.automiddleeast.com/auto-news/traffic-license-old-cars-bannot looking to start a massive row about it, thats just pointless just think we should all keep our eyes wide open to any "proposed" rules as if they want them to - they will happen remember fox hunting ? smoking in pubs ? poll tax ?? the country had an opposing voice on all of those subjects but was it loud enough to be heard oh, on a lighter note, its looking like that in Dubai your Aston/ RR/ Lambo etc is automaticly put into the "classic" exemption class so its only the more normal stuff thats gonna be shafted - read the type of cars we all own make up your own minds and draw your own conclusions to it all, but fore warned is fore armed as they say Indeed. The greatest risk in the UK is to the post '73 cars, as they aren't considered historic. Combine this with the DVLA's recent campaigns regarding modified cars & SVA testing. See here: www.retrorides.proboards86.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=47404in particular this post: www.retrorides.proboards86.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=47404&page=1#668823& for those who don't have unmodified pre '73 'historic vehicles', the situation is somewhat concerning. Bear in mind also that this is the work of unelected civil servants rather than politicians. personally I don't take any notice of new rules regarding old cars,,,,,,,yeah they migh get pissy about how long you can keep a car running but i'll continue with my old wheels regardless and anyhow if suddenly the gov't wanted you to scrap youre ten year and over car with no negotiation, it wouldnt stop the vast magority of the old car community staging a potest by means of using the M25 as a car park or other (that UAE law is very unlikely to encourage our gov't anyway) ,,,,,,,,,so indeed it'll just come down to making it more hassle to run them with little changes to MOT standards,,,,,,,,,,,nothing the great minds on this and other forum's cant overcome but protesting over plans that don't exist might be abit unproffessional,,,,,rather gather the factual resources for if a protest is needed They wouldn't enforce scrapping of everything over a certain age - any measures would be in the form of cutting back on our ability to use those vehicles by making it far too expensive for the vast majority of us to be able to justify that sort of outlay. Remember people, that the big argument used so far to keep classic cars exempt from any punitive legal changes is that they are such a small minority of overall road use. Should there be measures put in place to enforce that, we won't be in much of a position to argue.
|
|
|
|
|