andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,167
|
|
|
Not sure why a thread about a rumour has morphed into a thread about how modern cars are curse word on a forum dedicated to old cars? And no pictures of cool cars too. My (still) non working Land Rover, I'm hopeful that when it stops raining I'll fix it!
|
|
|
|
|
ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,195
Club RR Member Number: 170
|
Land rover brand name droppedChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
|
|
Personally I think the name, and the company, and all the cars they produced, should have been dropped 30 years ago. Into the sea. As someone who knows a little more (and has to be careful with what is said), it was on the cards for a very long time, even if no one wanted to do it. Jags have a curse word reputation. A car to be owned by either wannabe pimps or pensioners and not engineered as well as the German or Swedish counterparts ; You only have to read the story of the Series XJs, and what Ford thought of them when they were taken over (TLDR : Ford were shocked that a company could still operate like they did) as told here. The main reason they are about is down to the loyalty of some individuals, and the fact that folks like an underdog. Jaguar isn't dead, but the sales figures speak for themselves. The XJ was a dead duck for years before it was killed, the XE, a project designed to take on the 3 series and C Class, also a failure, if we are being honest. The 2 best selling Jags, are based on LRs, the E & F Pace. But there are plans. There are three main reasons the name was dropped -Jaguar isn't the player it once once, and it frankly hasn't been for years -Saying 'Land Rover Range Rover Evoque' or 'Land Rover Range Rover', does get confusing. It's worth Googling JLR 'House of Brands' There are now 4 brands under JLR : Defender, Range Rover, Discovery and Jaguar. Jaguar has merely been 'downgraded' to be alongside those -The movement of the selling idea. It's gone from the dealers owning the cars to the company owning more ; Google 'Agency Model Dealership' The latter is very pivotal. It's why a number of frankly quiet dealerships were dropped, but the model does more more responsibility on the company, as the company can effectively sell direct to Joe Public.
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 25, 2023 6:33:53 GMT by ChasR
|
|
ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,195
Club RR Member Number: 170
|
Land rover brand name droppedChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
|
|
Marketing & tech come first now, with quality, longevity, and reliability are in double figures. They only want the car to get past it's warranty then it's junk to them. You're probably missing the good old days when engines needed a rebuild around 60k miles and cars needed welding within 5 years of leaving the factory? You're probably missing the good old days when engines needed a rebuild around 60k miles and cars needed welding within 5 years of leaving the factory? In certain aspects, yes - because at least a lot more cars back then could be fixed at home without needing special tools. 60k back then was considered normal for some. A lot of drivers back then would learn how to reseat valves, replace pistons, bearings, all in their garage. Welding at home was more popular too, but then so was bodging with newspaper/filler etc so not every aspect. It's worth reading the link below. It's a very long read, but frankly, it's a miracle the XJ survived. I know of a few more tales from ex-Jag workers and specialists. A car rusting in the dealership within 2 months of being made anyone? redirect.viglink.com/?key=63364c64c1bea2953642596e66a2463a&subId=2095273&u=https%3A//www.aronline.co.uk/cars/jaguar/xj6-xj12/the-cars-jaguar-xj6xj12/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What I've never got with JLR over their long history is surely it would be more cost effective and easier in the long run to just be better. Other manufacturers have managed it, given the length of time they have had the reputation they have, and the different owners, I'd have expected something to have changed for the better. Even for just survival sake. When Lexus entered the market in the UK should have been the point where Jaguar sorted their selves out. Instead they just limp along, not being so bad they go out of business, not being good enough to be good enough. I know manufacturing is a complicated industry and large companies are like turning an oil tanker, enough time has been available to do both those things. Imagine the world leading powerhouses these companies could be. That is what makes me sad. Here is an old Jaguar as per andyborris request
|
|
|
|
adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,869
Club RR Member Number: 58
|
Land rover brand name droppedadam73bgt
@adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member 58
|
|
What I've never got with JLR over their long history is surely it would be more cost effective and easier in the long run to just be better. I worked for them from 2014 to 2020 and it was eventually recognised within that time that the quality was shocking and something had to be done to improve it. The numbers got better but not really by enough I fear. I was in chassis rather than power train or electrical, so we were probably in a better place to start with in terms of quality issues and causing breakdowns etc. The past and changing ownerships of Jaguar and LR probably hasn't helped, going from the BL way of doing things, to Rover, with a sprinkling of Honda influence, then BMW, then Ford. Jaguar going from the Ford ways to then amalgamating with LR. There are a lot of engineering standards behind the scenes and when you keep changing the way you're working/signing products off, the quality of the final product is likely to suffer. To slightly echo what ChasR said, I'd have expected Jaguar to disappear before LR, the XE and (2nd gen) XF were trying to take on the Germans head on with a less reliable product, a less mainstream brand at a time when saloons were on the downturn anyway and they never sold anywhere near the predicted numbers. XJ was allowed to go on for too long without a replacement, there was a huge amount of indecision about the XJ replacement which ended up getting canned anyway. F Type is largely an irrelevance on a very dated platform. So they're left with a couple of rebadged LR's and the I pace, which is a good example of why being first to market (in terms of an ev from an established "luxury" car maker) isn't necessarily as important as getting to market with all the issues ironed out. In terms of the LR brand, Range Rover is the big desirable (despite the issues) brand for them, so I can understand the move. Defender is enough of an icon to be its own thing, which just leaves Discovery and Discovery Sport which can be lumped together
|
|
|
|
|
Land rover brand name droppedMercdan68
@forddan68
Club Retro Rides Member 68
|
Apr 25, 2023 16:19:39 GMT
|
Another sad day in the British motor history My dad at 85 remembers many men and women returning form WW2 with enthusiasm to make this country one to be proud of We had some of the finest car makers in the world back then And we should of had a bright future in the car building industry Where did it go wrong Poor quality ? Militant workers ? Cheaper foreign imports ? It’s anyone’s guess really, but this is the end of another great British name…….but poor quality from what I can gather from friends in the trade is prevalent in all makes now
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 25, 2023 16:20:39 GMT by Mercdan68
Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
|
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2023 17:07:45 GMT
|
I would suggest misplaced arrogance should also be on the list. Being at the top at one point does not ensure being at the top forever, and there is only so long you can trade off a great name with an iconic product, whilst not delivering on what made the name and the icon. Trust me, I'm well aware of that! Without going too deep into it and spiraling off topic, militant unions get blamed for the destruction of the UK car industry, but that was 40 years ago, other companies have had experiences with quality and reputation damage in the meantime and bounced back (look at early 2000's Mercedes compared to where they are now). The Japanese had a similar issue with their unions and handled it completely differently, now look at them too. Whilst there is certainly external pressure on the UK car industry, the real issue is how we've responded to that pressure. Badly, in a word. Either doubling down on wrong ideas, wrong process or more often than not carrying on regardless until the minor problem that could have been averted is now a major problem and we're having to lay off staff. An inability to adapt because what we're doing is already right and always has been. Spoiler alert, it wasn't.
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 25, 2023 17:23:13 GMT by HoTWire: can to car haha
|
|
ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,195
Club RR Member Number: 170
|
Land rover brand name droppedChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
|
Apr 25, 2023 17:38:48 GMT
|
I would suggest misplaced arrogance should also be on the list. Being at the top at one point does not ensure being at the top forever, and there is only so long you can trade off a great name with an iconic product, whilst not delivering on what made the name and the icon. Trust me, I'm well aware of that! Without going too deep into it and spiraling off topic, militant unions get blamed for the destruction of the UK car industry, but that was 40 years ago, other companies have had experiences with quality and reputation damage in the meantime and bounced back (look at early 2000's Mercedes compared to where they are now). The Japanese had a similar issue with their unions and handled it completely differently, now look at them too. Whilst there is certainly external pressure on the UK car industry, the real issue is how we've responded to that pressure. Badly, in a word. Either doubling down on wrong ideas, wrong process or more often than not carrying on regardless until the minor problem that could have been averted is now a major problem and we're having to lay off staff. An inability to adapt because what we're doing is already right and always has been. Spoiler alert, it wasn't. I'll share my opinions over a beer, mainly as you never know who is watching . It's interesting being in the game. Adam's views aren't miles away from mine however, and his experience will be similar. Maybe it was: -pressure from management level down -lack of cohesion/ownership between areas. Wooden dollars are very much still a thing -objectives set to benefit an area of a company, rather than the company itself. -The mindset of British folks; Going abroad, the mindset is very different. A CEO of a German company for example, doesn't feel the need to have the latest 7 series ; likewise, a manager doesn't feel the need to have the latest car over there. Folks do work hard abroad, but they take pride in chilling out, and not burning themselves, and others around them out. Anyway, enough moaning, time for some shots:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2023 20:23:14 GMT
|
I wouldn't say it is unique to the UK, think back over the last few years and we've had VW's that have a Oliver Reed esq drinking habit (but oil) whch VW refused to fix for many customers, they also had headgasket problems, BMW 3 cylinders that regularly needed 4 grands worth of ECM and direct injectors within a few months of the warranty expiring numerous manufacturers with nikosil liner issues and Ford's early 1.0 3cyl engines to name a few.
It's easy when you are at the sharp end to see the worse but what is suprising when you have the data is actually how few as a percentage are failing at least Land Rover seem a bit better than others at honouring their warranty.
|
|
|
|
Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
|
Land rover brand name droppedDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
|
Apr 25, 2023 21:24:46 GMT
|
I would suggest misplaced arrogance should also be on the list. Being at the top at one point does not ensure being at the top forever, and there is only so long you can trade off a great name with an iconic product, whilst not delivering on what made the name and the icon. Tbh, I think this is the number one reason the British car industry is dead. Being critical, I don’t think the british were really on top at car production at any point postwar. They might have thought they were, but when a decimated Europe can pick up production in the mist of rebuilding itself and easily outperform the British offerings, it was quite an embarrassing turn of events really. Designs were outdated (they were basically mildly rehashed, downsized American designs but about 5 years after the fact, especially Ford and GM stuff), execution of concepts was poor, build quality was average at best, and unbelievably shocking at times- we’ve all heard the tales. People only bought British cars as that’s all the market offered them. As soon as other options became available people bought those instead. Foreign manufacturers picked the market apart and specialised, taking markets away from specific British models by just being better for less. At one end the Germans cornered the executive market, at the other the Italians, Russians, French and various others the bargain basement offerings. All the time the British manufacturers were belligerently saying not to worry about that foreign rubbish as no one wants it. Then the Japanese got involved and that was that. I find it funny when ‘classic car people’ bang on about the British motor industry like it was something to be proud of, and what a travesty it is that’s it’s gone, then invariably go full Tory and blame the workforce. It was largely a massive embarrassment- unbelievable incompetence on an industrial scale that’s better off forgotten.
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 25, 2023 21:25:48 GMT by Dez
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2023 21:32:47 GMT
|
Just to echo above, the British motorcycle industry did exactly the same thing, only about 20 yrs earlier & the car industry didn’t take that as a hint 🤷🏻♂️
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I wouldn't say it is unique to the UK I think that is kind of the frustrating thing here, not just for JLR but the wider industry. The UK car industry designed and built some amazing cars, think of the run of stuff from Ford from the mid to late 80's. We have that specialism in motosport and after market that makes things like the Lotus Carlton or Cosworth RS500 possible. We have the ability to manufacture so well that cars from Honda are exported back to Japan and badged up as British built with pride. However those at the top seem to be pathologically unable to put it all together and actually keep it going or improving. Italy is an interesting comparison given that they similarly traded off an almost singular ability in the 60's and 70's to make great looking cars, had the odd highlight in the 80's (Delta Integrale) and then just sort of dropped the ball. They occasionally seem to be able to boost their reputation again, the current Alfa Romeo Guilia Quadrifoglio is by all accounts an awesome car. Some Japanese manufacturers are actually having a similar moment, look at the output from Nissan (outside of the GTR). Then the result of the tie up with Renault and Mitsubishi. It isn't looking great for them, the new Z car is a good halo car, but the rest of the range, the cars that will bring in the money, are unimaginative and not popular. Whereas unimaginative and ubiquitous is what they aim for.
|
|
|
|
adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,869
Club RR Member Number: 58
|
Land rover brand name droppedadam73bgt
@adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member 58
|
|
Nissan is a funny one, the Juke and Qashqai have been massive sellers but the rest of their range seemed to just fall off completely. I'm sure they still sell a few Micra's and the Leaf but I can't recall much of the rest of their range.
On their more exciting offerings, the GTR is an old design that they keep going and I believe the new Z is largely based on the 370z/350z that went before? Not necessarily bad cars per se, but feels like they're doing the minimum to keep them going.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In addition to generally not being able/willing to turn the tanker around...it's all Charles de Gaulle's fault. Basically, during WW2 Charles de Gaulle was left out of a lot of the actual planning and doing of a lot of the French Resistance, being done primarily by SOE (and a number of other dedicated French bods). Instead, he was given the side-role of morale broadcasts, for which he developed a deep resentment for Britain in general. This all matters because by the time we get to the late 50s/early 60s, BMC had recognised that Britain as a market was far too small for a volume manufacturer to sustain itself. The Empire, where previously we'd had an easy time of selling cars due to trade restrictions, was falling apart and we knew it. In order to be sustainable, we needed to sell to Europe. The answer came in 1957 with the European Economic Community, offering free trade within many of the big European players and the promise of more. BMC did a lot of research into what cars sold on the continent in preparation for our application to the EEC in 1961 (which we assumed would be a mere formality). Their research suggested that while the UK buying public preferred cheap, staid, traditionally engineered cars the folks on the continent were happy to pay higher prices for more advanced FWD cars. Moreso than other manufacturers, they committed to this strategy and invested money to develop a wide range of very competitive cars tailored to the European market, the ADO15, ADO16 and ADO17 (Mini, 1100/1300 and 1800/2200). This was done on the understanding that they would recoup that money as markets opened that these cars were tailored towards. And they were very competitive at the time they came out, exactly when we expected to be accepted into the EEC. Roll around 1961 and de Gaulle vetoes our inclusion for no practical reason. Ok. Not a disaster. The cars are selling well enough to tick over and a re-application was made in '67...which de Gaulle vetoed again. Our application was finally accepted in '73. The issue BMC now faced is that its stunningly advanced cars were now getting quite long in the tooth, and its European rivals had a decade of development under their wings. Now strapped for development cash due to the lower than planned sales volume of their flagship cars, and the government being in no state to assist due to a decade of economic stagnation, BMC's next generation of 70s cars were woefully uncompetitive (Allegro, Princess, no mini replacement). This then kickstarts the whole British Leyland catastrophe as the government tries to save a beleaguered BMC (then BMH) by merging it with still-then-competitive Leyland (which had managed to weather the issues a little better). So instead of BMC going down it dragged damn-near everyone else down with it as well. This then kick-starts this whole cycle of being behind the curve of investment and struggling to catch back up and get ahead of the game, which we've never really managed to do. Every now and again we've created a car that's done phenomenally well, but never quite been able to capitalise on its success as all that's doing is plugging the gap of the decade of underinvestment that preceded it. One good car and a disappointing replacement is a bit of the pattern our car industry has followed since then. Edit: ADO16 video to make up for the wall of text!
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 26, 2023 10:29:20 GMT by biturbo228
|
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2023 15:37:06 GMT
|
I'm sure they still sell a few Micra's and the Leaf but I can't recall much of the rest of their range. I think the Micra market has been eaten by the Honda Jazz (at least judging by what my parents drive and the villages round here). Leaf is a weird car, it looks like it should be a compact EV, but in reality, it is quite large. I do see them around occasionally though, so must be doing something right.
|
|
|
|
slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
|
Land rover brand name droppedslater
@slater
Club Retro Rides Member 78
|
Apr 27, 2023 11:00:31 GMT
|
All that matters with JLR is how many billons of pounds worth of cars we are exporting to pay for all you lot to exist. No one should really give a toss if they are unreliable or whatever as long as they keep getting shipped off to china and the foreign currency keeps coming back because that's all they are for and that all the company really needs to care about. Why on earth people buy them i don't know, but they do and they do it in the right place which is abroad. Its maximising the profit generated from these foreign sales that has to be a priority for everyone because its one of the few places its actually happening in our crappy economy.
It would be nice to still live in a country where we can have nice small scale British car makers making reliable cars tailored for normal practical British people but the greed of the average British person completely prevents that.
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 27, 2023 11:10:19 GMT by slater
|
|
ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,195
Club RR Member Number: 170
|
Land rover brand name droppedChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
|
Apr 27, 2023 13:16:54 GMT
|
All that matters with JLR is how many billons of pounds worth of cars we are exporting to pay for all you lot to exist. No one should really give a toss if they are unreliable or whatever as long as they keep getting shipped off to china and the foreign currency keeps coming back because that's all they are for and that all the company really needs to care about. Why on earth people buy them i don't know, but they do and they do it in the right place which is abroad. Its maximising the profit generated from these foreign sales that has to be a priority for everyone because its one of the few places its actually happening in our crappy economy. It would be nice to still live in a country where we can have nice small scale British car makers making reliable cars tailored for normal practical British people but the greed of the average British person completely prevents that. Making a properly reliable and compliant car now is very tricky. It would also be very expensive to do, and the fact is, no one would pay for it.
|
|
Last Edit: Apr 27, 2023 13:18:10 GMT by ChasR
|
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2023 13:26:36 GMT
|
It would be nice to still live in a country where we can have nice small scale British car makers making reliable cars tailored for normal practical British people but the greed of the average British person completely prevents that. The "greed" for reliable cars hahaha Isn't JLR owned by Tata now days? After the Government rescued it in 70's?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2023 15:55:48 GMT
|
In addition to generally not being able/willing to turn the tanker around...it's all Charles de Gaulle's fault. Basically, during WW2 Charles de Gaulle was left out of a lot of the actual planning and doing of a lot of the French Resistance, being done primarily by SOE (and a number of other dedicated French bods). Instead, he was given the side-role of morale broadcasts, for which he developed a deep resentment for Britain in general. This all matters because by the time we get to the late 50s/early 60s, BMC had recognised that Britain as a market was far too small for a volume manufacturer to sustain itself. The Empire, where previously we'd had an easy time of selling cars due to trade restrictions, was falling apart and we knew it. In order to be sustainable, we needed to sell to Europe. The answer came in 1957 with the European Economic Community, offering free trade within many of the big European players and the promise of more. BMC did a lot of research into what cars sold on the continent in preparation for our application to the EEC in 1961 (which we assumed would be a mere formality). Their research suggested that while the UK buying public preferred cheap, staid, traditionally engineered cars the folks on the continent were happy to pay higher prices for more advanced FWD cars. Moreso than other manufacturers, they committed to this strategy and invested money to develop a wide range of very competitive cars tailored to the European market, the ADO15, ADO16 and ADO17 (Mini, 1100/1300 and 1800/2200). This was done on the understanding that they would recoup that money as markets opened that these cars were tailored towards. And they were very competitive at the time they came out, exactly when we expected to be accepted into the EEC. Roll around 1961 and de Gaulle vetoes our inclusion for no practical reason. Ok. Not a disaster. The cars are selling well enough to tick over and a re-application was made in '67...which de Gaulle vetoed again. Our application was finally accepted in '73. The issue BMC now faced is that its stunningly advanced cars were now getting quite long in the tooth, and its European rivals had a decade of development under their wings. Now strapped for development cash due to the lower than planned sales volume of their flagship cars, and the government being in no state to assist due to a decade of economic stagnation, BMC's next generation of 70s cars were woefully uncompetitive (Allegro, Princess, no mini replacement). This then kickstarts the whole British Leyland catastrophe as the government tries to save a beleaguered BMC (then BMH) by merging it with still-then-competitive Leyland (which had managed to weather the issues a little better). So instead of BMC going down it dragged damn-near everyone else down with it as well. This then kick-starts this whole cycle of being behind the curve of investment and struggling to catch back up and get ahead of the game, which we've never really managed to do. Every now and again we've created a car that's done phenomenally well, but never quite been able to capitalise on its success as all that's doing is plugging the gap of the decade of underinvestment that preceded it. One good car and a disappointing replacement is a bit of the pattern our car industry has followed since then. Edit: ADO16 video to make up for the wall of text! I'd also throw in a few greedy managers in places taking more than they should and in 70's and 80's, the UK public's appetite for all things foreign and exotic as opposed to French buying French, Italian buying Italian and German being very proud to buy German....... Plus if you study British history going back centuries, it is remarkable the number of times we have shot ourselves in the foot. Jet engine design being sold across the pond being one of them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2023 12:57:39 GMT
|
I think the point you miss Dez is that at one point the UK made more cars than the rest of Europe and Japan put together, second only to the USA, and we did it while rebuilding our economy which was wrecked after the war, in bombed out factories. We exported most of them, it wasn't just "British people with no other choice" it was Americans, Canadians, Africans, Australians, Asians... Those apprently substandard or antiquainted designs of Austin and the like were sold and licenced other manufacturers around the world. I was at the Nissan Herritage Collection at Yama in Japan last week and there's a bunch of Austin cars in there, built by Datsun, and the original Prince cars which spawned the Skyline were based off the Austin A50 Cambridge under reworked sheet metal... And then from then I think HoTWire has it largely right. And yes, the British motor industry did innovate - cars like the Mini and Maxi were ahead of their time, BMC adoption of FWD was also forward looking... But somehow... All those markets we exported cars to, send CKD kits too or built factories in ended up doing it better. Example the A50 Austin platform was the first Prince which leads to the Skyline. In the Austin world it lead where? The Ambassador? Then a dead end. I mean, the Ambassador was an OK car but not a Skyline. Grandfather (1955): Grandchild 1 (1984): Grandchild 2 (1984):
|
|
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
|
|
|