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Mar 12, 2019 19:45:04 GMT
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Thanks Chris. The 'premium/best/high quality labled thinners are exactly my problem, in that I rely on what it says in the tin, not knowing the real quality of the stuff in the tin. For example this unbranded can... from Autopaints Brighton, illustrates my dilema. I am getting my cellulose top coat through the Triumph Sports club, so I assume that it will be ok. It gets good reviews from other members. It was your warning about out of date paint and poor quality thinners that worried me as I don't know enough about the good stuff... but I know a man that does. I have already got Bilthamber, Upol, and other products that either you or Steve from the restoration event display team have recommended, but the brand names of quality thinners escaped me. So now I will get some branded hi-gloss thinners... is anti-bloom a similar thing?
As always, thanks for your time and letting me bug you. I would not use the Autopaints stuff - at that price it's likely to be quite disappointing in the results league - The last 5 litre tin of Lechler cellulose thinners I purchased was well over the £40 mark - but produced very good results with minimal effort - 'Anti Bloom' is good has some of thinners can leave white / milky ghosting appearance to the paint (normally in colder temperatures) - it can be polished out but it's hard work so the 'Anti Bloom' thinners can combat against this
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Mar 12, 2019 19:53:33 GMT
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Thanks GN, I appreciate that isocyanate is not the only safety issue, epoxy can be applied by roller with appropriate PPE, if I did decide that I needed a high build on top of the epoxy what are the non isocyanate options? You can apply a high build solvent based primer over the epoxy - try to plan this for the warmer time of year if you can and I personally would consider leaving it once primed with a solvent based primer for a good couple of weeks to ensure that it has fully cured and all the solvent within the primer has dissipated - this will give you a far better result - I would also consider double coating too - so once you have your primer flatted back - apply your colour coat in cellulose - 2 - 3 coats - leave again for 1 - 2 weeks then lightly flat back with 800's wet & dry with a little soap - put another couple of top coats over this and I can guarantee that you will achieve a far superior finish than what you would if you just went for it in a single hit
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Last Edit: Mar 12, 2019 19:54:18 GMT by Deleted
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keyring
Part of things
Posts: 913
Club RR Member Number: 47
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Body & Paint Threadkeyring
@keyring
Club Retro Rides Member 47
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Unfortunately when I was out offroading at the weekend, it's highlighted the work I had planned for the summer on the bodywork of the patrol is going to need to be done a lot sooner! (Perhaps before other projects) Fortunately the chassis is still solid, so I plan to get that filled with Dinitrol straight away, I can't be 100% sure the entire chassis is clean (mud etc) inside the legs, but if I flush it for a while with a hose, allow it time to try, and then fill it with Dinitrol, I assume that's better than not having it at all? The bodywork I have to sort is mainly the arches and box section sills(where it's been welded doesn't appear to be as solid as it should be) I'm going to use zintec for this, do you have a recommended thickness for general body panels? Or do you go for whatever thickness the original panel is? Finally, with this being an offroader, and body damage (scratches especially) being a common thing, I had thought about painting it a matt or satin finish colour, probably easier using rattle cans? Will all paint protect metal from rust? Or is that not the case The reason I ask, is a friend has his truck painted with graffiti paint (https://www.montana-cans.com/en/spray-cans/montana-spray-paint/black-50ml-600ml-graffiti-paint/montana-black-400ml) I like the range of colours and matt finish, and cans al-be-it an expensive way? may be easier and can be touched up too... But I wouldn't want to use it if it is going to be a porous paint/won't protect from rusting like a normal auto paint Sorry for so many questions...
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Mar 13, 2019 12:48:51 GMT
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Chris - Thanks for the Lechler thinners tip although, as mentioned by Droopsnout previously, my problems will be more with the application than the product. I am, of course, grateful for your concern in recommending only the best for your followers. I will have a look at what is available at the NEC show, there may be discounts!! I am having trouble finding Lechler products available to the the hobbyist and what is availble is only listed as a product number. Lechler probably assume that mostly professionals use their products and know what they want. Can you offer a non trade supplier's name please.
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Mar 13, 2019 20:26:17 GMT
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Having stripped the underside of a car back to steel what do people recommend coating it with assuming that the car will venture out in the wet from time to time?
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Mar 13, 2019 21:09:52 GMT
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I used epoxy primer, seam sealed using tiger seal and used upol raptor. I bought the tintable one so I could paint the car all in white - it looks good now but it'll suck when I've driven it a few times and it's filthy!
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1966 Ford Cortina GT 2018 Ford Fiesta ST
Full time engineer, part time waffler on Youtube - see Jim_Builds
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Mar 13, 2019 21:49:55 GMT
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Thanks Jim, I have been reading your Cortina mark 1 thread, my Dad had a 4 door airflow in the 70's that I used to borrow when I first passed my test.
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Mar 13, 2019 22:44:01 GMT
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Having stripped the underside of a car back to steel what do people recommend coating it with assuming that the car will venture out in the wet from time to time? Personally - A good etching primer then apply seam sealer to any panel seams & joints - once cured apply Dinitrol 4941 underbody wax to all exposed panel work and Dinitrol ML cavity wax to all cavities & box sections
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Last Edit: Mar 14, 2019 20:32:18 GMT by Deleted
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Mar 13, 2019 22:46:53 GMT
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Chris - Thanks for the Lechler thinners tip although, as mentioned by Droopsnout previously, my problems will be more with the application than the product. I am, of course, grateful for your concern in recommending only the best for your followers. I will have a look at what is available at the NEC show, there may be discounts!! I am having trouble finding Lechler products available to the the hobbyist and what is availble is only listed as a product number. Lechler probably assume that mostly professionals use their products and know what they want. Can you offer a non trade supplier's name please. I would a search on line to see if you can locate a good independent automotive paint supplier - most of them are very helpful - they are based at servicing the trade but the independents tend to be pretty helpful and want all the business that they can get
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Mar 13, 2019 22:53:36 GMT
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Unfortunately when I was out offroading at the weekend, it's highlighted the work I had planned for the summer on the bodywork of the patrol is going to need to be done a lot sooner! (Perhaps before other projects) Fortunately the chassis is still solid, so I plan to get that filled with Dinitrol straight away, I can't be 100% sure the entire chassis is clean (mud etc) inside the legs, but if I flush it for a while with a hose, allow it time to try, and then fill it with Dinitrol, I assume that's better than not having it at all? The bodywork I have to sort is mainly the arches and box section sills(where it's been welded doesn't appear to be as solid as it should be) I'm going to use zintec for this, do you have a recommended thickness for general body panels? Or do you go for whatever thickness the original panel is? Finally, with this being an offroader, and body damage (scratches especially) being a common thing, I had thought about painting it a matt or satin finish colour, probably easier using rattle cans? Will all paint protect metal from rust? Or is that not the case The reason I ask, is a friend has his truck painted with graffiti paint (https://www.montana-cans.com/en/spray-cans/montana-spray-paint/black-50ml-600ml-graffiti-paint/montana-black-400ml) I like the range of colours and matt finish, and cans al-be-it an expensive way? may be easier and can be touched up too... But I wouldn't want to use it if it is going to be a porous paint/won't protect from rusting like a normal auto paint Sorry for so many questions... Your ideas for the Dinitrol application should be fine - get a lance to use with the cavity wax to ensure that you get to all of the cavity sections For the sheet metal work and given what you will using the vehicle for I would use 1.2mm on the body panels I have no experience of the graffiti paint - although some rave on about it - it will be far more difficult to keep a matt colour clean than it will a gloss colour but I don't think that this will trouble you given what you are utilising the vehicle for.
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keyring
Part of things
Posts: 913
Club RR Member Number: 47
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Body & Paint Threadkeyring
@keyring
Club Retro Rides Member 47
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Mar 14, 2019 17:43:17 GMT
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Unfortunately when I was out offroading at the weekend, it's highlighted the work I had planned for the summer on the bodywork of the patrol is going to need to be done a lot sooner! (Perhaps before other projects) Fortunately the chassis is still solid, so I plan to get that filled with Dinitrol straight away, I can't be 100% sure the entire chassis is clean (mud etc) inside the legs, but if I flush it for a while with a hose, allow it time to try, and then fill it with Dinitrol, I assume that's better than not having it at all? The bodywork I have to sort is mainly the arches and box section sills(where it's been welded doesn't appear to be as solid as it should be) I'm going to use zintec for this, do you have a recommended thickness for general body panels? Or do you go for whatever thickness the original panel is? Finally, with this being an offroader, and body damage (scratches especially) being a common thing, I had thought about painting it a matt or satin finish colour, probably easier using rattle cans? Will all paint protect metal from rust? Or is that not the case The reason I ask, is a friend has his truck painted with graffiti paint (https://www.montana-cans.com/en/spray-cans/montana-spray-paint/black-50ml-600ml-graffiti-paint/montana-black-400ml) I like the range of colours and matt finish, and cans al-be-it an expensive way? may be easier and can be touched up too... But I wouldn't want to use it if it is going to be a porous paint/won't protect from rusting like a normal auto paint Sorry for so many questions... Your ideas for the Dinitrol application should be fine - get a lance to use with the cavity wax to ensure that you get to all of the cavity sections For the sheet metal work and given what you will using the vehicle for I would use 1.2mm on the body panels I have no experience of the graffiti paint - although some rave on about it - it will be far more difficult to keep a matt colour clean than it will a gloss colour but I don't think that this will trouble you given what you are utilising the vehicle for. Perfect, i'll get some ordered up, I assume when you put it in, it can end up blocking drain holes in the chassis, can these stay blocked due to the product or do they still need to be unblocked? Brilliant, again i'll get it ordered up! I assume the sheet can be welded straight away and doesn't require to be cleaned up with the grinder? Or is it the same as the normal mild when you buy it, give it a clean with the grinder where the welds are going? I'll try and look more into it, and see if i can find any more. My main stipulation is that it does give protection from rust, and doesn't end up like a primer drawing in moisture. The keeping it clean isn't too much of an issue, as it'll just be a big soft bristle brush and soapy water, like you say, what the vehicle is used for, it doesn't have to be gleaming after a wash Thanks for the Info!
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Mar 14, 2019 20:30:51 GMT
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Having stripped the underside of a car back to steel what do people recommend coating it with assuming that the car will venture out in the wet from time to time? Personally - A good etching primer then apply seam sealer to any panel seams & joints - once cured apply Dinitrol 4941 underbody wax to all exposed panel work and Dinitrol ML cavity wax to al cavities & box sections Thanks GM, so you are saying to apply the wax straight onto the etching primer? Can you suggest a good etching primer?
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Mar 14, 2019 20:51:50 GMT
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Personally - A good etching primer then apply seam sealer to any panel seams & joints - once cured apply Dinitrol 4941 underbody wax to all exposed panel work and Dinitrol ML cavity wax to al cavities & box sections Thanks GM, so you are saying to apply the wax straight onto the etching primer? Can you suggest a good etching primer? Yes - Its called a underbody wax (which it is) but goes on like a underseal type product - sprayed on with a Shultz type gun (if you have access to a compressor) underbody coatings need to be flexible so that they move with expansion & contraction of the cars materials but also need to hold self healing properties to allow the coating to reform when impacted by road debris / stone chippings etc - pic below of a recent application that I have done Aerosol etching primers are readily available - U pol do one which is circa £14 at Halfrauds - various other brands at the lower end of the market start at £7 - £8 a tin but a lot these just don't do what it says on the tin - there is a deal on e bay for 2 x Upol 8 acid etch for £22 which should do the job for you www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-U-pol-Acid-8-Etch-Primer-Aerosol-450ml-2-no/201495081356?hash=item2eea0af18c:g:gZoAAOSwhCBbVaIc
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Mar 14, 2019 23:04:57 GMT
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So what is this POR 15 stuff that some people use? seems to get mixed reviews.
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So what is this POR 15 stuff that some people use? seems to get mixed reviews. I wont touch it with a barge pole - It's a thick gloopy black paint that apparently covers rust - pretty pointless hiding rust with anything has rust will just keep doing what it does best 'rusting' - you can argue that by covering rust therefore excluding water & air that rust ingressed metals will cease rusting - all fine & well when written in the fancy words held within an in depth book of physics - but back to reality in the real world and I have yet to be proved wrong - cover rust up with whatever paint you want but unless the rust is thoroughly treated it will continue to rust - that does not mean that POR don't produce some good products (has they utilise the POR brand name throughout their product range) in particular their fuel tank treatment kits are excellent
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Last Edit: Mar 15, 2019 14:00:54 GMT by Deleted
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Your ideas for the Dinitrol application should be fine - get a lance to use with the cavity wax to ensure that you get to all of the cavity sections For the sheet metal work and given what you will using the vehicle for I would use 1.2mm on the body panels I have no experience of the graffiti paint - although some rave on about it - it will be far more difficult to keep a matt colour clean than it will a gloss colour but I don't think that this will trouble you given what you are utilising the vehicle for. Perfect, i'll get some ordered up, I assume when you put it in, it can end up blocking drain holes in the chassis, can these stay blocked due to the product or do they still need to be unblocked? Brilliant, again i'll get it ordered up! I assume the sheet can be welded straight away and doesn't require to be cleaned up with the grinder? Or is it the same as the normal mild when you buy it, give it a clean with the grinder where the welds are going? I'll try and look more into it, and see if i can find any more. My main stipulation is that it does give protection from rust, and doesn't end up like a primer drawing in moisture. The keeping it clean isn't too much of an issue, as it'll just be a big soft bristle brush and soapy water, like you say, what the vehicle is used for, it doesn't have to be gleaming after a wash Thanks for the Info! When you do the cavity wax its a messy job and the Dinitrol ML is very fluid when first used (it solidifies over a period) - the drain holes within the cavities are there for a reason so after a week or so make sure that you unblock these - water can enter cavities by various methods but the one that most owners don't consider is condensation - you have warm areas of the vehicle - engine bay / exhaust routing etc set against colder areas of the vehicle hence condensation forms within cavities around these areas - not huge amounts but then again you don't need gallons of moisture for rust ingress to take hold - you may also want to consider blocking the drain holes / covering them over with a little tape then the cavity wax can be allowed to flood the floor areas of the section - remove the tape after a week or so (do likewise with drain holes on the bottom of the doors) Zintec - If you just shine the edge of it up with a flap wheel you will find easier to weld - however, take care has zinc / air borne zinc dust is not good for your respiratory system - so use a good mask
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Last Edit: Mar 15, 2019 8:37:09 GMT by Deleted
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Mar 15, 2019 13:01:26 GMT
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When my spitfire had its body off 'restoration' 30 years ago, the underside was painted with hammerite (in those days it was good) and then coated with wax-oyl (again when it was good). After all those years the underside is showing signs of chips etc. 1. How would you recommend cleaning off the residual wax-oil prior to repainting 2. Will upol acid etch 8 take to the old hammerite prior to treating with dinitrol 4941 by brush (no compressor for schutz gun, although I'm sure I have seen a manual pressure gun at Frosts for applying dinitrol without an air line)
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Mar 15, 2019 15:58:46 GMT
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When my spitfire had its body off 'restoration' 30 years ago, the underside was painted with hammerite (in those days it was good) and then coated with wax-oyl (again when it was good). After all those years the underside is showing signs of chips etc. 1. How would you recommend cleaning off the residual wax-oil prior to repainting 2. Will upol acid etch 8 take to the old hammerite prior to treating with dinitrol 4941 by brush (no compressor for schutz gun, although I'm sure I have seen a manual pressure gun at Frosts for applying dinitrol without an air line) Given that you are going to retreat / reapply a new treatment to the underside of the car it's probably worth seeing if you can locate someone that does commercial steam cleaning / pressure washing and take the car to them - they can then get the car up in the air and steam the wax off for you whilst also washing any road debris off the underside components at the same time Compressor wise it's probably worth you looking for a cheap second hand one - if you can find something that has upwards of a 50 litre tank - it will always come in handy - failing that you could always consider hiring one from a small tools hire centre for the weekend - a Shultz gun will apply it so much better and will save you a lot of time
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Last Edit: Mar 15, 2019 18:48:09 GMT by Deleted
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Mar 15, 2019 18:03:18 GMT
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Chris - Thanks for that. Will there be any problems applying the etch primer directly to the old hammerite? I read somewhere, sometime ago, that cured hammerite was difficult to bond to especially the old stuff. I don't relish the though of scuffing up all the old paint without a ramp! Perhaps spot treating damaged paint areas with primer and then dinitrol might be an idea.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:46:59 GMT
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Chris - Thanks for that. Will there be any problems applying the etch primer directly to the old hammerite? I read somewhere, sometime ago, that cured hammerite was difficult to bond to especially the old stuff. I don't relish the though of scuffing up all the old paint without a ramp! Perhaps spot treating damaged paint areas with primer and then dinitrol might be an idea. You have already worked this one out - it's exactly what I would advise - Hammerite has always been difficult to overpaint in general - you will be fine with the Dinitrol going over it but I would not go applying the etch primer in heavy wet coats otherwise it may react with it and wrinkle / pickle up - much better just to dust the etch primer on in several dryish coats to achieve the coverage - times have moved on and whilst Hammerite was all the rage 30 - 40 years ago it's well left behind today given the technological improvements made within the automotive paints & coatings market
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Last Edit: Mar 15, 2019 21:06:40 GMT by Deleted
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