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Jan 30, 2006 11:24:37 GMT
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jan 30, 2006 12:51:59 GMT
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It certainly highlights some serious issues the system may not be able to deal with.
The thing is with car theft, no tax and no insurance seemingly so common now I can't think of an alternative that would work as effectively.
I do worry about the possibility it will be extended to a speed monitoring system.
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том
Posted a lot
"If in doubt, flat out!"
Posts: 2,707
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Jan 30, 2006 13:06:09 GMT
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1988 V8 Rangey Bobtail :: 1968 Volvo Amazon 133 Ratrod :: 1977 Land Rover 88 :: 1985 Opel Monza GSE :: 1983 MKII Fiesta
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Jan 30, 2006 13:12:27 GMT
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There are lots of things which could be done. What about abandoning tax discs altogether or making all cars ‘tax exempt’ (i.e. free tax disc) and boshing a few pee on the cost of fuel instead. Problem solved. As for no insurance, I suspect the number of vehicles being used on the roads without any insurance policy at all is very small, although of course this data is not easy to uncover. However the number of cars moving around with are ‘incorrectly’ insured or not insured for whoever is behind the wheel is unknown, and the system can not identify these cars.
When you see the figures people have been quoting on here for car insurance it’s not surprising that folk try to save a few quid by incorrectly insuring their car or even not bothering. The prices are completely ridiculous, like £2000 – that’s within a whisker of 10% of the national average salary. Who has access to that sort of dough at 17/18? Insane. And when folk are caught without insurance the punishment is invariably a real token effort. In the end it’s the little guy who gets screwed as always in the UK, the insurance companies do very well thank you, the IT companies developing this sh*te do very well thank you, it will have little to no effect on the motoring habits of those who operate ‘outside the law’, and the only people who will be affected are those who want to drive to work to earn the money to pay the tax to put the system in place to watch them drive to work. I hate it! In fact I am going to have a look tonight to see if I can join ‘liberty’ or one of these groups who campaign against all this big brother tech. It makes me so mad!
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Jan 30, 2006 13:14:13 GMT
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Have not wanted to read this yet, to avoid get my blood boiling again. If we lose our freedom thet we have had for squillions of years, it will be very sad indeed. All the tax evaders are on dvla record. less cameras more decent police, is what i propose. nowt wrong with that.
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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том
Posted a lot
"If in doubt, flat out!"
Posts: 2,707
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Jan 30, 2006 13:15:50 GMT
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ACPO, Association of Chief Police Officers ? no, Assholic C**ting Pant Organs. ANPR, Automatic Number Plate Recognition? no, Actual Nazi Preservation Regime.
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1988 V8 Rangey Bobtail :: 1968 Volvo Amazon 133 Ratrod :: 1977 Land Rover 88 :: 1985 Opel Monza GSE :: 1983 MKII Fiesta
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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Jan 30, 2006 13:20:14 GMT
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Interesting the police have more or less admitted that they have lost control of the younger/chavvier aspects of car crime. The penalties handed out are derisory. They do however intend to "throw the book" (heard a cheif of Police use this exact term) at and normally law abiding middle class people caught committing traffic offences. This is supposed to deter us normal people from backsliding. Nice to know.
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This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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Jan 30, 2006 13:31:20 GMT
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So, they catch some scrote driving an unregistered car with no valid tax / insurance / MOT. He gives them false details, car gets impounded, the end. One of my old neighbours used to do this (unemployed, but always had a Merc, BMW or J sportscar). Despite several people reporting him and his mates for driving illegal motors and openly dealing drugs, he's still there doing the same things.... Meanwhile, a few weeks ago my car got all the petrol siphoned out, for the fourth time, and naturally clogged the injectors up with curse word. The Police tell me they can't do b*gg*r all, and I insure my other car (as an additional vehicle). Then every smartarse traffic cop in Suffolk and Essex pulls me over within two days because the database shows I have J437*** insured, not G595*** (when they're BOTH insured). AND, the punchline.... I can't put up CCTV to catch the tosser who keeps coming after my fuel, because it will violate my neighbours' human rights.
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My fleet: Suzuki GSX-R600Y SRAD with bald, melted tyres A borrowed Mondeo
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Jan 30, 2006 14:05:26 GMT
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That just sucks mate, see way i see it theres little brains and/or honesty behind the power. thats the prob. In an incident cops told my mom her house was in another ladys name, of course when we checked this out later they had got the information from their nether regions.
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Jan 30, 2006 14:42:51 GMT
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I fully support the use of a national database of insurance, MOT and Tax as i'm fed up of hearing about scroats who think it's their right to go down the scrapyard, get a £30 banger and drive it till it falls apart. We're not talking the odd joyride here, we're talking using it every day, more than i use my taxed/insured/mot'ed car. it's only a matter of time before one of them runs into me and i have to drag the moron through small claims court, and then rejoice with the 27p a month he's ordered to pay back.
what does bother me is the reliance on untested technology to catch such people. it's fine to have a human being type your numberplate into his computer and see if you're taxed, but when you let a computer read your numberplate, decide if that's actually you, query the database and act on it's conclusions, without any human intervention, then that's dangerous. because then when you argue it (when you get a summons for a completely different car running your reg plate), you're suddenly guilty until proven innocent - after all, the computer has already decided that it was you!
we have regular ANPR posts on a busy road up here.... just for a giggle one day i drove my (taxed/insured/tested) car really close to the van in front (we were queueing past the camera). what this meant is that the lady with the camera nearly crapped her pants as she had to get up off her chair, then she had to use her fingers to type my registration in to check my status. such a horrendous effort!
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Never trust a man Who names himself Trevor. Or one day you might find He's not a real drug dealer.
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Jan 30, 2006 15:11:53 GMT
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Nick
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,483
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Jan 30, 2006 15:14:44 GMT
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as per usual it will only affect and F*ck over the people who are in general good honest people, the actual criminals will of course evade it like they do everything else. if people don't want to be caught, they generally don't get caught. lazy policing produces curse word results.
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idea stolen from rattely eddie.
this weeks car count "5"
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jan 30, 2006 16:20:01 GMT
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The question is at what point do you say it is OK to employ technology to do robotic jobs? Surely we wouldn't be happier with the suggestion that hundreds of police officers are going to sit on the side of the road manualy checking records and looking out for fake tax discs? The fact of the matter is that being able to check nearly every car that drives past wether or not it is taxed insured or stolen is a massive advantage to us as a nation. Especially if it genuinely does free up police to do what they are trained to do.
The argument that guessing not many people drive without insurance and speculating that it wont catch the real offenders is not a very valid imo. However the counter argument that providing you drive within the law you should go uneffected is a strong one. I don't see how the middle man or good honest people get f**ked here like people suggest.
I think Pillock has made a very valid point about the computer working on this innocent till proven guilty. However this proposed system should easily be able to prove when a duplicate car suddenly appears because the trend of a cars movements is stored for 2 years. If you drive from Essex to London everyday and your car suddenly appears in Newcastle at the same time then it would flag up as a duplicate.
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dp
Posted a lot
DP Race Tech
Posts: 1,044
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Jan 30, 2006 16:38:11 GMT
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mr bo11ox in da house: Big Brother cameras
We have been hit with speed cameras here in Sweden as well, they only shoot from the front when you come speeding at them, I solved that by removing my front license plate, been flashed a couple of times but no bill in the mail....
Lately people have been backing up their cars and whipping a chain around them and pulling them down since there are some awesome Nikon digital cameras worth around €10.000 inside so now most of the camera boxes are empty....
DP says: Speed cameras are there for one reason, evading them.....
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Jan 30, 2006 16:55:16 GMT
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... the only injury I sustained was a bumped head when I let the seatbelt of without realizing the car was upside down and that's not really the car's fault.
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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Jan 30, 2006 16:56:44 GMT
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I don't see how the middle man or good honest people get f**ked here like people suggest. I think the point is that the police/government are basically not interested in setting up systems that will catch/satisfactorally prosecute repeat offenders as the habitual criminal will devote too much energy into bypassing and evading anything the police can set up. The effort goes into putting the fear of god into the average person in order to keep them (the majority of the population) in line. Hence Jonny Scroat convicted of multiple vehicle thefts, driving without insurance etc gets a caution of suspended sentence but Mr One day over his MOT on his four year old Focus gets a massive fine and/or sentence. Basically the system knows who can/will actually pay any fine levied and goes for them.
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This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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Jan 30, 2006 17:02:30 GMT
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I don't see how the middle man or good honest people get f**ked here like people suggest. That depends on how you look at it I reckon. Perhaps ‘f*ked’ is not the right term for what will happen to the little guy. However what will happen, is that the little law-abiding guy has to take ever-increasing amounts of responsibility to insure himself against so-called ‘criminal’ activity from others, and if he doesn’t, he himself automatically becomes the criminal. Its happened already with SORN declarations. Keeping your old project car at home in the garage is pretty harmless. However now it is illegal to do so unless you write to the DVLA and tell them exactly what you are doing. And you have to write to them every year and re-tell them what you are doing. If you don’t tell them you get fined and you are the criminal. You have to do this, because if you don’t you are automatically assumed to be up to no good with your untaxed/uninsured car, razzing it around at night or something. Now it’s the same with these ANPR cameras. You have to agree to be watched everywhere you go and have your details checked 1500 times on every journey you make, because if you don’t you’re automatically assumed to be doing something the ‘state’ wants to know about. That’s mega objectionable if you ask me. Once again the old ‘if you’ve done nothing wrong you’ve got nothing to fear’ gets trotted out but for me this is simply a non-answer. The fact that the death penalty has been abandoned in 90% of the world is effectively an (honourable) admission that any justice system can make mistakes. Even after the investigation of a murder, and surely no crime is taken more seriously or investigated with as much resolve in terms of techniques and technologies used, it is necessary to admit that justice is never guaranteed at 100% and the judgement of humans is absolutely necessary when deciding how to punish people. Well, in the case of the ANPR cameras the severity of the ‘crimes’ is of course vastly reduced, however the frequency of ‘investigations’ is hugely increased and I think the two situations have some parallels. We no longer apply the ‘if you’ve done nothing wrong you’ve got nothing to fear’ rule to murderers and other ‘severe’ crimes because we have advanced enough to know that it just cannot be relied upon in all cases. How can we justify applying it to the entire mobile population of a country? Especially when we are basing the whole premise on a set of databases which are known to have a certain (currently very high) level of inaccuracy and cameras which can be very easily fooled by anyone who feels like it. The little guy has to fill in more and more forms and accept further and further legislation, checking and monitoring of his activity, and also has to insure HIMSELF against any mistakes made in the handling of his data on the computer systems, but I’m sure we all agree that anyone who is really up to no good will have no problem fooling a specs camera at the side of the road and will certainly not be feeling much of a pinch.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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ImpManiac
Part of things
Imps... Imps... Imps...
Posts: 868
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Jan 30, 2006 17:06:23 GMT
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The argument that guessing not many people drive without insurance and speculating that it wont catch the real offenders is not a very valid imo. Correct! Driving without tax and insurance is an offence anyway! Also, it is frequently found to be true that those committing such motoring offences are involved in other forms of crime. The folk that really suffer with these systems are the otherwise law-abiders that happen to sneak past the speed limit by accident. It happens to all of us. I actually try to stick to limits but speed can and does drift and unless you always watch your speedometer... and how safe is that? Plus, if you stick to speed limits, you get some twerp tailgating you, flashing his or her headlamps and then swearing at you as they overtake in a 30 mph zone - an offence. Darwinian selection-inducing levels of stupidity. IMHO, driving is simply not the pleasure it used to be when I started back in 1990. I'm
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1966 Singer Chamois sprint/hillclimb car in white over blue two tone 1975 Triumph Stag long term project (over 20 years so far) in colour TBA 2003 Vauxhall Vectra GSi 3.2 in black sapphire
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jan 30, 2006 17:12:56 GMT
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Its happened already with SORN declarations. Keeping your old project car at home in the garage is pretty harmless. However now it is illegal to do so unless you write to the DVLA and tell them exactly what you are doing. And you have to write to them every year and re-tell them what you are doing. If you don’t tell them you get fined and you are the criminal. I've actually been stung by this. I registered a car SORN and assumed that was it done and dusted till I needed road tax again. Got a reminder about tax and ignored it thinking it didn't concern me. Got a fine sent to my parents and didn't read it till the late payment penalty kicked in. Ended up paying over £100 for not sending a letter back because I had a car in a garage. Sucked big time. But it was my own fault. All I had to do was sign something and send it back.
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Last Edit: Jan 30, 2006 17:14:17 GMT by MWF
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jan 30, 2006 17:19:29 GMT
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IMHO, driving is simply not the pleasure it used to be when I started back in 1990. Is it really fair to blame the police and government for that through, because it seems a lot of people are willing to. The fact is many people have behaved like criminals and ruined it for us all. We can either continue to let it get worse and watch more and more people cross the line into no tax and insurance or we can do something about it.
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