Pete's new garage! Finished.. for now! :)

Right, just so everyone know what we've discussed so far here's some of the email traffic between Lewis and I,

Lewis,

I've attached a couple of sketchup doodlings! One is the finished article with a couple of cars in it! (That's the workbench one) the dimensions are on the second one, they are pretty accurate, but I
guess the only ones that matter are the current concrete base which is 9.8m by 4.36m. and the width of the garden
which is 10m. I can access from both sides outside my boundaries so I guess the garage can go right up to the
edge. If not a loss of a few cm isn't going to be too much of an issue!

Doors wise, we would like to use electric roller doors, about the size they are on the sketch, however, the
second (smaller) door doesn't have to be a roller door as it will only be used occasionally!

We do want to use proper slate tiles on the roof, as this will match the house, but we're pretty flexible on
that too! (I don't know what the score is on weight etc) Think you asked about insulation and I would like it to
be insulated.


I've also attached a couple of photos so you can see the old structure and the garden where the rest is going!

Think that should be enough to get started

Pete

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Hey Pete

Well i have quickly hashed out the floor plans and elevations and I think that we need to have a chat about some of the exact specifications and dimentions.

Things like

Do you know the exact size and spec of the roller doors?

Due to the span of the roof, if its tiled (which is not a problem) its going to need a mother of a lintel over the garage door openings!

We also need to talk about overhangs, and also the height of the roof.

the 1760 mm wide door will also need a large lintel to support the roof joists, and so space gets tight at the head of the door. I.e. its a 2000 mm high door with the roof line at 2300 which only gives 300 mm for joists and
a lintel. The roof joists can be hung off the lintel, so not a major issue, but it might be worth considering raising the height of the lower level of the roof so that the roof joists can bear onto the lintel making the detailing a little more simple.

Are you going to line the inside with anything?

generally how timber frame works is that the vertical studs are braced with a layer of OSB sheathing. Normally
in a house the OSB goes on the outside and the inside is lined with plasterboard. If you are going to line the
walls with OSB or boarding internally I can move the structural sheet from the outside to the inside, saving you
lots of sheathing board.

do you want timber or render cladding?

how much of a roof overhang do you want on the roof. I was thinking 300 mm all round, but what are your thoughts?

Are you going to buy off the shelf door and window units, or do you want me to design and detail bespoke doors
and windows?

what level is the slab vs external gound level. Structural timber (i.e the wall panels) must be at least 150 mm
above external finished ground level. As such depending on the level of the slab, a course of bricks may need to be laid around the perimeter of the slab to get a level platform and to bring the timber up to a reasonable level.

I will design the kit (like tim's shed) to be a flat pack kit. I.e. you build all the panels on the ground and then lift them into place all in one go. Is that ok?

Timber sizes for the walls will be basically 2x4, i.e. 50x100 mm timbers at 600 centres. Is that ok?

Lots of questions I know, but agreeing the spec at the start will certainly save time.

Should be a cracking space to work on cars once its done... Love the pit as well!!!

Lewis

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Wow,

all sounds good. We'll (Me and Mrs B!) have a chat about stuff and I'll give you a bell a bit later if that's ok, but very quickly....

No, haven't looked at the spec of the roller doors, but the one's we are looking at have to be custom made above a certain width. I'll have a look at the website and check.

What alternatives are there roof wise?

The 1760 wide door isn't a must but would like slightly wider access through the garage to the back garden.
Again it isn't an absolute and could actually go where the other door is, which is also not set, leaving that back wall as a solid expanse (if that makes sense?)

Would like the inside lined, yep. What with I'm not sure, if the outside is rendered does that mean the OSB has
to be on the outside? as I think rendering would go better with the house.

300mm overhang sounds fine, would that be all round? as that may have to come off the overall dimensions as the
floor plan pretty much extends to the boundary as it is?

Would probably need a brick course as the base isn't 150mm off ground level all round.

Yep, the pit is very handy!!

Pete

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Pete

Alternatives for the roof are either felt or felt shingles. Tiling is ok, but there are a few fringe issues that we can chat about later that make it a slightly larger problem. The roof overhangs at the boundary can be reduced to nothing if we use a parapet wall detail.

If you render outside, there are two options. Either render onto a board, or render onto open paper backed lathe.
The osb/boarding can still go on the inside, as you can't render directly over it if you put it on the outside
anyway.


Lewis

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If you made it this far........ well done. Lot of info but thought for interest it would be good for anyone to see the kind of things that need to be considered (From Lewis' perspective!)

I'll be using Lewis' drawings to apply for planning permission. The only issue might be the people in the house at the back as they may lose a little light into their kitchen! Fingers crossed

Hi all

Some of you may have seen the workshop/shed that I design for Tim.

I plan to do the same here, but with quite a lot more detail. Pete will need planning permission for this, and as such the drawings and information needs to be spot on to comply.

I also plan to document in reasonable detail how one might go about actually designing all the elements of the building.

As with Tim's shed I will be designing this to be made as a flat pack kit. I.e. you make all the panels first at your leasure. Get all the elements sorted, and then actually erect the kit in one go.

Firstly, for my own benefit, I played around with Pete's Sketchup model. Just adding some internal and external finishes and pulling off dimensions where necessary.

We had a quick chat over the phone last night, just to help get a few of details sorted in my head. Emails sometimes lose the meaning.

I will start a post for each segment of work that I get done, with a time tally and pertinant information for anyone else that may want to do the same... or PM me for a quote

Next part was to go into Autocad to draw out the floor plan and get the dimensions sorted out.

Making sure you get the sizes right early on is quite important.

The other thing to consider is that Pete had given me sizes based on the overall size of the building, rather than the timber frame kit. The two are not always the same.

The timber kit is clad in this case with render, which adds about 50 mm to the overall dims of the building. Now the dims that are shown below are based on what Pete told me.

So the first thing to consider, is can these dims be 50 mm larger, or does the kit need to be smaller to still fit in the same space... this is the first question for Pete to answer.

Here is the dimensioned floor plan.



Work to produce this was about 15 minutes

Total work time - 45 mins

Lewis

Ok now the first thing to think about when we come to specifics of the particular building is the most complicated part.

In Pete's case, the roof is by far the most complicated part of the building (and it usually is!)

So in this case I am going to rough out the design of the roof first. The roof won't be totally detailed as it will change, but by getting a good idea of how the roof will work and it's requirements then it will help the design of the rest of the building.

So the roof is a pitch of about 9 degrees with spans of up to 6000 mm.

This is actually a little bit of a problem. Pete has asked if it could be tiled. I thought initially it might be doable, but having looked it in more detail, I think the imposed load of the tiles will make thinkgs difficult.



Here is quick roof joist layout. Very basic obviously but you can see that the spans mean that the joists will have to bear over the large garage doors. That means at a HUGE lintel would be needed to support the load over the span. The second issue is that the joists come to a valley. Valleys are difficult because the joists need to be hung off of the valley rafter, or joist in this case. It means that a large area of roof is loaded onto that joist, meaning it would need to be HUGE.

Another issue is the overlap of the tiles. The shallower the pitch the greater tile overlap required. this means that you need to put more tiles onto the roof and so the load increases only exagerating all of the above mentioned points.

Another issue is that anything below a pitch of 15 degrees is classified as a flat roof. As such, flat roofs are not normally tiled!!!!!

I think, Pete, we might have to consider a lighter weight roof finish. Once one considers the load of a person walking in it, and possible snow loads (yeah wishful thinking but still valid) it makes the tile option fraught with problems.

I have done a quick example roof based on a felted (or shingled) finish. Now this sort of felt is a little but different to the average felt you get a shed roof. It is much thicker and also has tar based glue joists. So the whole thing is glued down the roof boarding.

Here is a section though the building



Hear is the eaves detail



and the 'ridge' detail



Now I will go into a little bit of detail about each of these details in a moment - there is a lot of detail going on that might not be clear at first glance.

Time spent on these indiciative details - 60 mins

total time spent - 2hrs 15 mins.

Oh one other point

So far all these drawings have been done in 2d.

It is FAR easier working in one plane to start with.

Once ALL of the details are sorted I will then turn this into a full 3D structure. It won't have the coverings and thing on, but the structure will be assembed in 3d to make sure all of the structural elements fit together as they are supposed too!

Edit - Pete

I will draw up some planning permission drawings and elevation quickly now. It would be worth putting the application in sooner rather than later in case they want to change something.

the details can be done without worring too much if they change something small, but I would rather not do the whole thing, only to find out that there is a major change that requires a comprehensive re-work!

I can't see a problem in principal, but you never know!

Lewis, looking good so far.

IDY, Yep, I'll have a chat with the neighbours, they're friends anyway, but sometimes that makes it a bit more difficult!

Lewis,
1. Can the dims be 50mm larger? I think probably not, as the building will sit on the edges of the property boundaries as it is. I think to allow access (although I will be able to access both sides for painting/render etc) and avoid any arguments! this is probably the best course.

2. The basic planning permission drafts sound like a good idea and getting it in as soon as possible will definitely save a bit of work on your behalf

Sadly my Dad died yesterday quite suddenly so we're all a bit blown away at the moment! but I will check in as much as I can over the next week or so, and then life might have returned to something approaching normality.

Thanks Lewis. Just a thought, the concrete slab that the current garage is on is as per the drawings so that side/size is fine. Obviously the other slab hasn't been laid yet, so presumably that'll be dictated by the size of the frame?

Here is today's update.

I have jiggled the dimmensions of the building to make sure that it fits to the slab and stays withing the boundaries.

The planning drawings are underway. I have drawn up the elevations and floor plans, as well as a new roof layout.

First off is the new floor plan.



Note that these images are negatives (that is the way autocad displays the layouts)

Here is a new roof layout plan with joist widths represented



Here are the elevations





Here is a section of the external wall



These have all been placed on a simple drawing template. It includes information like addresses, clients, drawing numbers, revisions etc.

These are little details but makes the whole submission look more pro. I will email these in PDF format to pete so that he can forward them on with his application.

Drawing with Autocad itself is a simple afair really.



that is a screen dump of the working area. lines can be drawn with accurate dimensions. Its like a drawing program with numbers.

The drawing template can be set with polar co-ordinates. I.e. you click the start point of a line, and this line can then be snapped to a grid of angles. In this case the angles are set to 30, 45, 60 and 90 degrees. These represent isometric drawing angles.

This version of autocad is a lite version. It works in 2D mainly. Its a real doddle to work on if you get the idea stuck in your head, and then draw it out accurately.

3D is where it gets really complicated. The componants must be drawn flat and then extruded to make a 3D solid, then all joined up.

If anyone has any specific questions about any of what I am doing, please ask. That is why I have posted this information.

time spent on adjusting drawings and elevations - 60 minutes ish

total time spent 3 hrs 15 mins ish!

Lewis

Nice one.

The wall make up is aproximately 20 mm render, a 25 mm cavity, a 90 mm timber stud and a layer of 9 mm osb.

All that needs to sit on the foundations is the timber stud and the render can overhang just off the edge.

With the plan view above, the width of the widest part is set to your max dims. So the frame itself will be smaller, i.e. 50 mm smaller on each side. The front to back dims of the existing area is 50 mm larger so that the front of the garage is in the same spot, but the back can overhang slightly, etc etc.

I will do another plan now quickly that actually shows the dimentions of the slab below.

I just need to finish off a couple of cross sections and annotate the drawings and i will pdf them and email them across.

Lewis