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More trouble with valve adjustments! OK so the new motor has had some teething issues. Mainly running a bit hot and the valves keep going out of adjustment, particularly the number 4 exhaust valve. I set it to .006" and 10 miles later the car starts to sound like a subaru and it is way out again. I think I started to pull the stud out from the repeated rocker removal and the stud issue was secondary. I had enough and tore the motor out tonite. Set it on the stand, pulled the pan and saw this  Woah! pulled it out and the tappet is destroyed as well   All the other lobes are just fine. No idea what went on. Lubrication? curse word tappet? It is dissapointing to see the Techline DFL wore off faster than the assembly lube did. Waste of money and time there. More tomorrow when I can look into it more. I have no scale, but looking at your lifter you might be using 600 lifters rather than 850 lifers. You might want to check out: |
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I've enjoyed your experiment. I had an 850 coupe many years ago and had lubrication issues even with a PSE modified block and external oil filter.
Another note. I know that you are using a modified cooling setup. If you are still blowing air back through the radiator, then make sure to use the sheet metal cowling around the engine. This will really help your cooling.
What do you plan to do about the flex joints off the transmission? Some people have covers on the tranny to allow you to replace them with CV joints. I know this is a shoe string project, but you have a mill there. Just an idea.
Great work! I look forward to the updates.
I really like the van.
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Hmm......All my 850 motors seem to have the same lifters and they do look smaller than the ones John showed there.
I did put a good used set of lifters and the old Delong racing cam in....for about an hour. It was way too agressive. It only managed to pull 5 inches of vaccum at idle at best. I am sure the thing would have screamed til 9000rpm but that was just too much so I installed another stock cam. About 40 miles on the new cam and the valve adjustment is still in spec! It was going out every 5-10 miles before. I won't call it a victory yet but I am optimistic.
The rings are still seating and the motor is getting stronger every day. I am pretty close to turning up the boost and seeing what it can really do.
The air flow through the radiator is still the stock fiat route. The belly pan is in place to keep the hot air from recirculating. My cooling system works wonderfully. It stays 185F no matter how what or cold it is outside and the only time it rises any higher at all is during long hard pulls up hill.
As for the flex joints I am suprised how well they are holding up. I have been hearing for years about how fragile they are and how one good burnout will tear them up but I have mercilessly beaten on them with more torque than 99% of 850 drivers will ever have with 1 failure and when I replaced it really wasn't that bad.
I would rather replace the tranny with something like a renault 5spd or IRS VW box than modify this one.
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Good to hear that the valve adjustments are holding, probably was that rocker stud pulling out that wiped out the cam.
Renault tranny? Interesting. The R16 had the tranny mounted in front of the engine, would that make it work turned around with our reverse rotation engines? I have to have another cup of coffee and think about that.
Congrats on the feature in Grassroots motorsports.
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Last Edit: Jul 9, 2011 15:18:58 GMT by nmretro
1987 Alfa Milano/75
1979 Alfetta Mille Miglia
1976 Alfetta GT race car
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Rallye S
1968 Fiat 850 spider
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I am thinking about going clockwise rotation on the motor so I can use a Fuego transmission.
I found about 2 dozen Fuego 5spds avaliable on car-part.com (nationwide junkyard database) The lotus community seems to know the most about this trans and they say it can hold up to 150hp or so.
The VW trans would be easy, common and cheap but I would rather have a closer ratio box with an overdrive than 4 long gears.
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VW trannies are often flipped over when used in mid engine cars, maybe that could be done with the Fuego trans.
Of course the same basic engine spins the other way in the 600.
As long as the cam profiles are symmetrical you could change the rotation of the motor ( I have done that putting a Fiat 124 engine in an 850) there are a few things to think about though, cam timing can be done with gears,timing ( I don't think you are using a stand alone yet?) starter rotation, and the H2o pump, but I think you have an electric one.
As long as the standard trans holds up why change, do you ultimately think you will make too much power?
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1987 Alfa Milano/75
1979 Alfetta Mille Miglia
1976 Alfetta GT race car
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Rallye S
1968 Fiat 850 spider
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The problem with the standard trans is gearing. At 65mph I am turning almost 5000rpm. It is deafening inside the car. I would like to start taking it on longer trips but trying not to be run over by traffic moving along at 75mph just isn't feasable.
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Dynamat is your friend, of course it adds weight. No I'm getting it, if you are looking for highway use, you need a 5 speed.
I like your "outside the box" thinking and look forward to seeing the progress.
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1987 Alfa Milano/75
1979 Alfetta Mille Miglia
1976 Alfetta GT race car
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Rallye S
1968 Fiat 850 spider
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I have an audi 80 ghearbox 4 ghear mounted, final drive ratio 3,75to 1, on my 850 coupe, low the RPM whit 1000, now at 4500 it go at 63 mile (real on highway, not about spedmeter).
was difficult to squeeze the box is totally opposite shift, the distance between motor and axles short as 1 inch and the engine go closer to water cooler whit 1.5 inch. now it work beter then the old ghear box. also i have 0,9 panda engine transfom in ccw rotation whit ghear distribution
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fiat 850 coupe, ford capri mk1, fiat 128 3p, ford granada mk1
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Jul 10, 2011 21:26:41 GMT
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So you are spinning an audi box backwards and it works? This is fantastic news! I bought one last year with this in mind.
Any information and pictures you have would be greatly appreciated.
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Jul 11, 2011 21:55:35 GMT
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yes. indeed. surprising it don`t make revers noise. sorry about picture! it`s already on the car from two week but in a week or two i will change whit a 5 ghear one, the big prblem was whit adapting the axel and the cluch, my egine fit maxim 170mm (sorry my country work whit metric value!) and VW - Audi have the thiny cluch 180 so Ihave to adjust this one. to fit the engine on ghear box i use a metal plate 5mm thik, i have somwere an CAD drawing but i have rotate the engine a litlemore to left, when i wil put the 5 ghear box i wish to corect this. I watch Your post from about one year for "turbo", from what I see on your injection the the gas presure regulator is not for turbo, i sugest to put one and so the presure is regulated from the presure behain the throtle , so you get more gas, search image for turbo injection diagram and see. maybe i am rong, this what i see in your picture. mechdb.com/index.php/Ford_fuel_pressure_regulator sorry for my english, more easy to spech then writing!  , |
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fiat 850 coupe, ford capri mk1, fiat 128 3p, ford granada mk1
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Jul 11, 2011 23:28:55 GMT
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You type english better than I speak any other language
You are correct that my fuel pressure regulator is not boost or vacuum adjustable. That just means that I have to change the pulsewidths more at high load. Not really an issue.
I would love to see your CAD drawing of the adapter plate. I started making a template to see what was needed. I wonder if it is still around?
All 850's in the USA use the 160mm clutch. It might be worth me buying a 170mm flywheel and pressure plate from someone in europe.
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Jul 12, 2011 18:55:01 GMT
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You have complained about the pulswidths, presure regulator increas ore decreas the presure compensate the bost presure so you don`t need to increase the pulsewiths and remaping is more simple
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fiat 850 coupe, ford capri mk1, fiat 128 3p, ford granada mk1
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Jul 13, 2011 16:24:33 GMT
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I agree with Murphy. Having a pressure sensing regulator will increase the flexibility of your injectors quite a bit and make tuning a little easier. As the pressure in your manifold increases so does fuel pressure, which could also help with atomization a little.
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Jul 14, 2011 14:04:00 GMT
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The amount of pressure change from vacuum/boost compensating FPR wouldn't have been enough to either make a single large injector go low enough at idle or a smaller injector provide enough fuel at peak. If I want say 100hp out of one injector I would need a 650cc/min unit. Lets say that the boost referenced FPR will drop the fuel pressure from 45 to 30 PSI at high vacuum. That would make the injector basically 560cc/min. That would still be too big since I was at 1.2-1.5ms with a single 440cc/min injector. Adding a second 440cc/min injector was an easy and inexpensive solution that has worked perfectly. My idle pulsewidths are up and I can supply a surplus of fuel. It could handle more than 140hp which is way more than I expect to make. So far everything is going well. Valves are holding adjustment, oil pressure is perfect and no more oil leaks. I cleaned the wideband O2 sensor and got it working again and turned on the VE Analyze live portion of tunerstudio and have been letting it do the tuning for me based on a "safe" AFR target table. It is stunning how simple and well this works. The car gets better as I drive it. Notice a stumble? just reproduce it 2 or 3 times and then it dissapears! www.efianalytics.com/TunerStudio/If someone had tried to tell me 10 years ago that for about the same cost as a new weber carb and manifold an enterprising person could build an electronic injection system that would tune the car for you I would have laughed at them, but here it is. Jump in, hit a few keys and drive and it just keeps getting better. The motor is now holding boost up to 16psi. I had better break that 100hp mark this time. If nothing breaks it will be on the dyno tuesday or wednesday. |
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Jul 15, 2011 23:22:13 GMT
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Can't wait for for the dyno results
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1987 Alfa Milano/75
1979 Alfetta Mille Miglia
1976 Alfetta GT race car
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Rallye S
1968 Fiat 850 spider
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Jul 17, 2011 23:26:17 GMT
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made new fuel and spark tables today. The spark table is a lot less aggressive and the fuel table was on the safer richer side so that I could let the real time VE analyzer software tune it for me as I drove.
Holy curse word! this thing is fast. According to the datalog I hit 230kpa at peak boost. That is almost 19psi!
I will see if someone can at least get a smartphone video of a dyno run. This is getting ridiculous.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:44:25 GMT
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Had the Dyno operator/tuner/awesome guy extraordinaire James at Garage 808 take a look at my spark table and Air fuel ratio targets and he recommended some more changes. Less aggressive up top since I am running more boost than I had really planned on. Then he hopped in the passenger seat with my netbook on his lap to see how things looked under load. I hit the road and did a few what runs and it builds boost very smoothly and linearly. We did spike 235 kpa during a long hard 3rd gear pull. I will be turning down the boost. That was damn close to 20 pounds. Strangely the motor seems to just accept it and turn it into forward acceleration. But on stock rods, pistons and crank it just seems impossible. I wonder if tiny motors just naturally handle positive displacement well? Things I need to start giving thought to. Flaring the arches. The 165 section width crappy all seasons are not up to this level of hp, I need to ventilate the intercooler. Intake air temps were going way high, and as much as I don't want to do this relocate the radiator to the front of the car. It is getting pretty packed back there and that is leading to some heat soak issues. I experimented with cutting out mk1 golf front arches to use as weld in flares but I originally dismissed them since I didn't think the sharp lines and angles would flow with a such a rounded car with nary a square edge on it. perhaps I should rethink them  Dyno still to come. |
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Jul 20, 2011 22:25:39 GMT
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A cold air intake wouldn't be too hard to arrange.
You mentioned that you had the cowling present in the engine compartment. Both on the exhaust and radiator side.
I used to see 850 coupes with scoops on the rear deck for more air, but that would ruin the appearance.
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