Panda Matt
Part of things
Datsun Owners Club Wannabe
Posts: 734
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Mar 14, 2005 18:35:30 GMT
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Hey there knowledgeable people of R-R.
I'm after some advic- in fact tomorrow, I'm off to the local Citizens Advice Bureau, but i thought i'd ask here too...
About this time last year, i took my car in for an MOT at a local VW specialist. It failed majorly, mostly on welding. I was faced with the choice of scrapping it, paying nearly agrand for the welding work, or fully restoring it (it was generally shabby at the time). I asked for a worst case scenario quote for the resto, which came out at £4,800 (£2500 labour, £1500 paint, £800 trimming) I only wanted it for use as a daily driver, and said so- no concourse for me. As I had lots of the bits together for the car, I said I'd provide the parts, which I hoped would save me some money. The company had a policy of a 70% deposit on any work being paid up-front, after a string of customers who didn't want the car back after the work.
To help save money further, i went there on my weekends, and spent a good few hours over several weekends dismantling the car- to save on the labour charges.
Due to other commitments on the part of the restorer- e.g. other cars ahead of mine in the queue, and me not being too rushed (again, in theory to save money) it took until about october last year to actually get in the workshop.
At the end of october, I got a worried sounding phonecall, asking if I could go in. They explained that unfortunately, when they tried to remove the body from the chassis to get at the bits that needed welding, they found extra problems. Again, a 70% deposit on the £1,672 worth of work was required. I sucked in, thought ah well, it needs to be done, and paid the deposit with the money I saved for when the car would be finished.
Slowly over the next few months, work progressed slowly. In the middle of jan, the body was back on the chassis and in paint. I was over the moon- it was all downhill from here, right?
Well work on the car was delayed again due to other customers. I took it well, and could be patient to get my car back.
Last monday I got another letter (dated 19th feb), asking for £1,190 for extra labour they've had to do on the car- including painting, and repairs they had to do to the panels I supplied.
This rather narked me... no.1 because they've had the parts for 6 months before they used them. No.2 because they've spent 14 hours fettling some wings @£35/hour= £490. I could've had a fabricator make some from scratch for less. I've now had more than double the amount of original estimated labour hours spent on the project, and the £4,800 estimate currently stands at being £10,699 (not including the parts).
So, what do you think- am I being treated fairly? What would be the best course of action to follow next?
As I say, I'm off to the CAB, but helpful replies on here would be greatly appreciated (as would offers of cash).
Thanks
A rather infuriated Matt
*PS people who also visit VZI may notice this sounds familiar..
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Mar 14, 2005 19:24:21 GMT
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Here's my opinion for what it's worth.... The problem here seems to be the difference between an 'estimate' and a 'quote', if the original price was an estimate I would think you would have problems. If it was a quote, in writing, then that would be a different matter. As they seemed to have informed you (at least initialy) before carrying out extra work, that may be seen in their favour. Something that does strike me as slightly odd though is that if the 'worst case scenario' quote was £4800, how expert are these 'specialists' when the job takes twice as long and costs twice as much? Anyway, best of luck, hope you get it sorted out
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... the only injury I sustained was a bumped head when I let the seatbelt of without realizing the car was upside down and that's not really the car's fault.
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Mar 14, 2005 20:39:11 GMT
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What do you have in writing from them? Sad as it sounds if they've agreed everything verbally you're up poopy creek without an outboard, whereas if you have paperwork with figures on you're slightly better off.
Most quotes in my line of work (computer repair - totally unrelated but hey!) are phrased something like "it'll probably cost this, if it exceeds 110% of quoted price then we'll requote, if it is within that 10%, you're liable to pay in full". most reputable firms work with something like this, whether verbally or in writing on the quotation. They should have been on the phone to you BEFORE they worked on the wings, the labour, extra painting etc.
Things to take to the CAB are a figure for new wings, compared to their 'fettling' of the ones you supplied - they should have known this would be the more expensive way of doing it. Also try and get a complete run-down of all the work they've done, if they can't provide this or it sounds suss then mention it to the CAB - it does sound like they have you down as a honeypot, willing to fork out when they need a new set of tools....... have they even done the work they're charging for? Go take lots of photos of the car as evidence.
If it's a decent company (and i'll understand you not naming names until it's resolved!) then just the threat of CAB will get you to some compromise quickly.
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Never trust a man Who names himself Trevor. Or one day you might find He's not a real drug dealer.
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Panda Matt
Part of things
Datsun Owners Club Wannabe
Posts: 734
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Mar 14, 2005 21:22:40 GMT
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Here's my opinion for what it's worth.... The problem here seems to be the difference between an 'estimate' and a 'quote', if the original price was an estimate I would think you would have problems. If it was a quote, in writing, then that would be a different matter. Something that does strike me as slightly odd though is that if the 'worst case scenario' quote was £4800, how expert are these 'specialists' when the job takes twice as long and costs twice as much? Anyway, best of luck, hope you get it sorted out Yeah- the initial bit of paper I recieved has estimate written in big letters on the top. All the work that has been done has some sort of paperwork attached to it, and I just know it will all have been meticulously recorded at the garage. The real thing that bothers me about it is the fact that the initial estimate was so badly out. If I had estimated something at work which ended up costing double, I'd lose my job... Thanks for the good wishes. I hope to keep this thread updated with any further events. thanks for the support What do you have in writing from them? If it's a decent company (and i'll understand you not naming names until it's resolved!) then just the threat of CAB will get you to some compromise quickly. I've got plenty in writing from them, although some things are not as well explained as they could be- i suspect there's going to be room for them to manouvre in what I have. I really did think they were a decent company to begin with, and was recommended there by another VW guy (who knows the owners very well). Having said that, I've more recently heard bad things about them as well (and more stuff from some of the guys at work). And no, I wont be naming them on a public forum
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Mar 15, 2005 11:28:37 GMT
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This doesn't sound right at all. If they were a reputable company, I would expect them to inform you first before carrying out any extra work that wasn't covered in the original estimate.
Best of luck at sorting things out!
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Benmarina16v
Part of things
1974 2ltr 16 Valve Marina Coupe 200Bhp On The Way
Posts: 414
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Mar 15, 2005 12:11:44 GMT
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Matt am I right in saying you live on the Isle of Wight? What garage was it?
Ben
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'87 2.8 Ford Capri '74 2.0 16V Marina Coupe '72 1800TC Saloon '72 1800TC Coupe -------------------------------------------- www.morrismarina.net
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Panda Matt
Part of things
Datsun Owners Club Wannabe
Posts: 734
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Mar 15, 2005 18:04:08 GMT
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Matt am I right in saying you live on the Isle of Wight? What garage was it? Ben Ben, yes I am on the Isle of Wight, but I really don't want to name any names on a public forum... Going to CAB tomorrow now- got loads of hassle at work today
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Last Edit: Mar 15, 2005 18:08:57 GMT by Panda Matt
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Panda Matt
Part of things
Datsun Owners Club Wannabe
Posts: 734
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Mar 16, 2005 18:20:26 GMT
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Been to the CAB today...
Basically, as I've only ever had 'estimates', I'm buggered, unless i argue that "the trader failed to take reasonable care in working out the estimate". Also, the fact that £1190 of work has been carried out without me recieving any kind of financial indication of the likely price means that they've been very naughty, and i'm not liable to pay that.
The big problem in this is that to get anywhere will mean involving lawyers and courts and such like, which is likely to cost me more.
CAB recommended I contact the trader via letter and ask to meet somewhere in the middle, pointing out the above.
Tomorrow I'm off to Trading Standards for a second opinion, and to try and find out if anyone else has complained before (although i doubt that they'll tell me).
Remember folks- get a written quote before letting anyone else near your ride for work in exchange of cash, no imatter how well you know them.
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Nick
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,483
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Mar 16, 2005 19:43:20 GMT
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jesus mate hope that all works out for you,
thats mainly the reason i now want to learn all the fabricating skills and bodywork stuff myself, to save events like that happening to me
best of luck with it al though
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idea stolen from rattely eddie.
this weeks car count "5"
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Panda Matt
Part of things
Datsun Owners Club Wannabe
Posts: 734
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Not been on for a while... Update: Trading Standards say I do have a case, but I'm going to be paying out more money and will not have a finished car. I've decided to persue it anyway, as I feel as though I've been treated as a mug 9perhaps deservedly so...). I've also heard more horror stories about the same place from other people (including a 'full resto' that left the original (knackered) fuel lines in, which caught fire shortly afterwards) Please guys, be careful when getting anyone else to work on your car- it's amazing how depressed you can get if it all goes wrong. Matt
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Nick
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,483
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moral of the story, don't let anyone ever work on your car because people are curse word idiots its best to learn to do it all yourself or not do it at all (unless you have cash puring out of your ass)
i hope you curse word them over in courts dude
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idea stolen from rattely eddie.
this weeks car count "5"
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Resto quote advice?rustingdeathtrap
@GUEST
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I really sympathize with you mate. The trouble with this kind of thing is its so hard to prove that you've got value for money. Its almost impossible to put a price on a restoration because of the nature of the work involved. I think your best bet is to go with the fact that they've charged you for work that you've not authorised. At the end of the day, because you've agreed to have all the other work done they've got pound signs light up in their eyes and they think your made of money and whats a couple of grand more gonna matter. Obviously nothing I or anyone else says is gonna make you feel any better, but I do sympathize with you and I hope it works out for you in the end.
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Panda Matt
Part of things
Datsun Owners Club Wannabe
Posts: 734
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May 10, 2005 18:20:41 GMT
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** Update** Right, got my first offer at a deal for the work done without my consent... £1195.81. Yes, that is £5.81 than the amount I had an issue with paying. Thats because they've done some more work on the car after I first raised the problem. Trading Standards on my side- I would win something of a discount in court if it goes that far, but I'd still rather avoid it. I'm fairly sure that the guy is not a con man per se, just got a bit confused as to what an estimate means, and a bit confused as to what his terms and conditions mean. At the moment I'm feeling much more positive about the whole thing, and I'm fairly sure a compromise will be negotiated.... <edit> and for what it's worth, I've not taken on a second job at weekends to pay for the car to be finished
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Last Edit: May 10, 2005 18:21:36 GMT by Panda Matt
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May 10, 2005 18:37:10 GMT
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Good work, I salute you for pursuing it. It sounds like you have really had a rough deal there, I hope the lad will learn from this, he sounds distinctly trigger happy to me, if not a conman per se as you suggest.
You can get the authorities on your side. My mate sold his calibra privately a while ago to some lad for a price of 2250, agreed after inspection and test drive. The lad paid 2 large in cash and the last 250 with a cheque. When he got home he cancelled his cheque. When my mate said 'whats all this' he said 'oh I've found a bit of rust which you never mentioned' or some such token wanky excuse. my mate asked him to cough up but he refused. So, my mate simply went on the CAB webstite, then the small claims site, and sued his ass from the comfort of his works desk. within about 6 weeks there had been a mini court case, right of appeal (ignored), warrant issued for recovery of the £250 plus costs etc and he's just waiting for the bailiffs to do their stuff. all at the click of a mouse.
Not the same circumstances but an encouraging story nonetheless.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Panda Matt
Part of things
Datsun Owners Club Wannabe
Posts: 734
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Got another letter this morning... + The bill is now 1/2 what it was originally. (I am happy - They sound like they are being difficult about finishing the car (to be expected to some extent I suppose...) Basically, after I pay up, I need to make another deposit on the work required to finish the car or they "happily transport the vehicle with our compliments to your home". Which is fine, except it is not road legal (MOT etc) and I have nowhere off-road to store it (which I'm fairly sure they know). So... anyone know anyone on the isle of wight that has some off-road parking I can borrow for a little while until I can afford to get the car finished by professionals? Feeling much better now- I've persued it and not exactly won, but am much (£750ish) better off than I would otherwise be- like Mr B says, it is possible to fight injustice!
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Panda Matt
Part of things
Datsun Owners Club Wannabe
Posts: 734
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Sept 7, 2005 20:03:06 GMT
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*Sadly another update* I got the car back a week last saturday- hooray! It needed the door seal taking off and putting back on 'cos they'd buggered it up. It also had something of a spartan interior as the money for that had gone on paying of the grossly inflated bill. Apart from that, and a couple of other minor things (like losing half of my spares, not fitting some seals, not perpping some of the bits properly so the paint didn't stick); I was happy- I had my car back after 18 months of it being away. 20 minutes down the road, the cabin filled with oil smoke, and I managed to smokescreen off the road behind me. The car had overheated (possibly due to the fact that half of the cooling system hadn't been refitted, possibly because whoever setup the timing messed up). I let it cool down, phoned work to let them know I was going to be late, and nursed it to work, where I let the 'gentleman' I'd just picked the car up from know about the possible shoddy workmanship. He assured me he would pick it up on tuesday (bank holiday monday) and get it sorted. Whilst waiting for the flatbed, a colleague (who drives an evoII integrale, and happens to make prototype automotive composite components, and has an eye for a good paint finish) basically went round the car pointing out all of the defects in the paint. I also mentioned the fact that 3/4 tyres were flat when I drove off in the car, the brakes were pulling severley to the pavement under load and that the speedo didn't seem to be connected up. I mentioned this to the 'gentleman' when he picked the car up. Anyway, I've not heard anything for a week, and yesterday arranged to have a quick chat with my friend at trading standards. He could not believe the situation - did I mention the £500+ bill to get the freshly restored car through the MOT, and total cost £3100 more than the original estimate for a badly finished shell of a car. Mr T-Standards recommended 1 more chance to the 'restorer' to settle a deal where we would both be happy. I mentioned that this was unlikely (he agreed), and asked what the next stage was- which is court. Not cheap, but potentially very satisfying. Going to a T-S recommended bodyshop to enquire about how much £ it will cost to get the car checked over on Friday. However, i still do not have my car back, and more worryingly, no indication as to when I can expect it back - I'll post up the letter I sent if anyone's interested. The reply: "Well the receptionist and the paint guy are on holiday 'til monday, so we;'ll be in touch then" Anyone got a car I can borrow/have for free for a few months? I sold my run around when I was told my car was finished... I was really depressed last week, but after talking to T-S and being told that he's acted indefensibly, I feel so much better... I'll continue to update when there's something new. Remember folks- check out whoever is doing the work on your pride and joy very carefully before handing over the keys
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Sept 7, 2005 20:26:11 GMT
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christ, i cant belive this! i never saw all this before! Aweful! is this an aircooled resto place? If so i'd like to know who - if you don't want to publicly say then please pm me. I know a good garage in the south coast who might be able to help u here. Well done for persuing this!! Keep at it as a rule, if they need a deposit before doing work then they cant afford to do the work! don't go near anyone who wants money upfront!
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Sept 7, 2005 20:29:37 GMT
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I'm saddened to hear about your plight. hope it is all resolved soon to your advantage.
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Wouldn't it be nice to be legally allowed to have the right to smash the equivalent value out of his stock for the amount that he tried to rip you off by. +/- 100-150% ! I hope that this shyster gets what's coming to him, and TS stop him stealing money off enthusiasts and close down his gaff. He is no better than any rogue trader/scamster/thief and should be put in the stocks and pelted with engine parts by unsatisfied customers... BB
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Yesterday at 7:54, pogweasel wrote:
Nothing wrong with creature comforts. If I want masochism, I'll just go and slam my knackers in the fridge door for a bit.
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then tickled. I did put something different, but it looked too harsh when I read it on the forum! ;D BB
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Yesterday at 7:54, pogweasel wrote:
Nothing wrong with creature comforts. If I want masochism, I'll just go and slam my knackers in the fridge door for a bit.
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