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Hi all, i’m new to this website so i’m just getting to grips with thing sand thought this would be the best thread to post this.
I have a 1977 Vauxhall Cavalier 1600 GL which has it’s own dedicated forum on here from 2017, anyways onto my point.
The car comes lowered on what i can assume is 50mm lowering springs as the chassis rails pretty much sit on the floor and uses the standard 13 Inch Rostyle Wheels which are amazing to look at. My only downside is they’re mated to what look like rubber pool hoops for tyres at 185/70/R13 (the poor Rostyles look lost). My gripe is that the contact with the tread and the road is next to none and so in the wet the car becomes very unstable (yes i know it’s rwd and old skool haha). Even in the dry the car feels very very dangerous to drive with almost the feeling of any minute i’ll break traction. With it being lowered i’d have expected better as my dad had one as a first car and he recalls his being more stable on standard ride height, however he noted he had wider tyres / wheels.
So my question to you guys is what should i do? I don’t personally like the look of the massive tyres as it gives it a draggy look and it’s never supposed to look like that but more importantly i don’t want to keep worrying whether i’ll loose the front or rear at the slightest of opportunities. It’s very similar to having pencils bolted to my hubs.
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I guess the first thing to try is get your alignment checked, lowering can do weird things! And the lower you go, the weirder those things can get...
Then Google for a tyre size calculator if you want to address the looks of the wheel/tyre combination.
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Last Edit: Mar 17, 2023 7:19:45 GMT by joem83
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lebowski
Part of things
Hillman Avenger, Clan Clover
Posts: 453
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The tyres shouldn't make it dangerous to drive (unless they're very old). 185 is plenty wide for a car of that era. If the chassis rails are almost on the floor then it's more likely that your suspension geometry is now terrible due to excessive lowering.
You mention that there's almost no contact between the tread and the road. Have you got loads of negative camber?
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I love the idea that a 185/70 tyre on a 5.5 or 6" wheel, that was a common fit on millions of cars throughout the 70s and 80s, is 'massive'! Or that it's causing your problem when you've drastically lowered the car. Especially as it was the upgrade from a 155 or 165 tyre on lower spec cars. Capris, Cortinas, Escorts, and I suspect your Cavalier all took this approach. As did the 150bhp Lotus Sunbeam, which came 185/70 on 6" wheels as standard.
That's without commenting on the aesthetics; I hate the modern 'stretched rubber band' low-profile tyre look, and think an older one looks better on older cars.
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Hi and welcome to this great site.
Your contact patch will be roughly the same size regardless of the make or size of tyre at it is a function of car weight and pressure.
How old are the tyres, as they can harden over time?
Lowering can, as mentioned above, affects suspension geometry and never in a good way. Out of alignment tracking and hard tyres can make a car very skittish.
What do you mean by “too thin and too big”? 185s are the right size if the rims are the standard 5.5” width.
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Is the suspension bottoming out at all? The spring rate rise to infinity can cause odd behaviour.
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-(
2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap
V8 Humber Hawk
1948 Standard12 pickup
1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Is the suspension bottoming out at all? The spring rate rise to infinity can cause odd behaviour. Good point. |
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Hi guys and thank you all for your responses, i can’t seem to find the prompt to post a picture on my phone, is this something that can only be done on a Desktop?
So i bought the car already lowered and one of the previous owners labelled that they’d done this on this exact forum but didn’t mention the drop that was put on it. It struggles coming off my drive when there’s a passenger and the sharp red speed bumps are a no go, i’d have a guess and say the suspension is bottoming out as the thud i get is ridiculous. They’re Spax Shocks but can’t seem to pinpoint which ones, whether they are adjustable or not. The drop hides about an 1/8th of my Tyres in the Arches so unless something can be done suspension wise i’m restricted to Wheel Size with the standard Tyre Size. I do like the look of the standard Rostyles but wouldn’t mind either BBS or Revolution 4 Spokes / Minilites or ATS.
The Tracking is also out as over 60 i get a tremendous amount of shaking in the wheel which i’d say doesn’t help, as for the tyres they’re not cracked and i don’t know when they were fitted but they just look thin on the width portion, when i did take it on a trackday someone advised i played with tyre pressures as the poor thing went every direction but straight.
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Forgot to mention the spare in the boot is 165/55/R13
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If they are 5.5 width, you could squeeze 195/55/13's on
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From all of that, your problems are all suspension related: it's too low, likely too stiff, yet still bottoming out. That amount of lowering won't have done the suspension geometry any good, as you've effectively used up all the travel before it moves to accommodate the road surface/cornering requirements. The wheel vibration could be as simple as out of balance, or as bad as the propshaft angles being out of spec.
These are all common problems from a massive lowering job done for appearance - the frame rails being that close to the ground pretty much define that - and most people just put up with them. That's without getting into the often badly thought through methods of achieving the drop, like heavily cut or, even worse, heated springs. Personally I think such jobs just look broken, but it isn't my car. I would suggest raising the car a bit, using softer springs to reintroduce some suspension movement. Basic adjustable shocks like Spax etc are pointless as they go from OK to essentially locked up in a quarter of the setting 'range'. Hugely stiff suspension on a road car is just torture, and rarely improves any aspect of the performance.
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Mar 17, 2023 10:20:26 GMT |
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"The Tracking is also out as over 60 i get a tremendous amount of shaking in the wheel"
That's not tracking, it's more likely a wheel balance problem.
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Mar 17, 2023 10:23:18 GMT |
From all of that, your problems are all suspension related: it's too low, likely too stiff, yet still bottoming out. That amount of lowering won't have done the suspension geometry any good, as you've effectively used up all the travel before it moves to accommodate the road surface/cornering requirements. The wheel vibration could be as simple as out of balance, or as bad as the propshaft angles being out of spec. These are all common problems from a massive lowering job done for appearance - the frame rails being that close to the ground pretty much define that - and most people just put up with them. That's without getting into the often badly thought through methods of achieving the drop, like heavily cut or, even worse, heated springs. Personally I think such jobs just look broken, but it isn't my car. I would suggest raising the car a bit, using softer springs to reintroduce some suspension movement. Basic adjustable shocks like Spax etc are pointless as they go from OK to essentially locked up in a quarter of the setting 'range'. Hugely stiff suspension on a road car is just torture, and rarely improves any aspect of the performance. Agree with all of this. Never buy a modified car from someone who doesn't have a clue as what they are doing as this car sounds like it has been totally F'd up and dangerous. |
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Last Edit: Mar 17, 2023 10:52:52 GMT by nalesutol
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Mar 17, 2023 10:32:37 GMT |
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Considering i’m the 9th owner i’d have a good guess and say 6 were clueless with it, the folder of history shows this.
I always wanted a classic from being super young and as a 19 Year Old now i’m just feeling my feet with the thing, the amount of cost cutting and corner cutting on the car is F***ing embarrassing. For one which makes me laugh is the exhaust was held on with a Zip-Tie instead of a Rubber at the Hangar end. I also can’t begin to describe the wild birds nest which sits underneath my Dashboard which someone decided was entirely okay. 90% of the wiring is bodged and off cuts of insulation tape. Practical Classics even owned it and decided to run it through it’s life with a broken spring and a heavily abused Weber Carb. I’m willing to put my time and effort into the car to make it how it should be. I do like the lowered look but in all honesty it’s too low.
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Mar 17, 2023 11:27:29 GMT |
Considering i’m the 9th owner i’d have a good guess and say 6 were clueless with it, the folder of history shows this. I always wanted a classic from being super young and as a 19 Year Old now i’m just feeling my feet with the thing, the amount of cost cutting and corner cutting on the car is F***ing embarrassing. For one which makes me laugh is the exhaust was held on with a Zip-Tie instead of a Rubber at the Hangar end. I also can’t begin to describe the wild birds nest which sits underneath my Dashboard which someone decided was entirely okay. 90% of the wiring is bodged and off cuts of insulation tape. Practical Classics even owned it and decided to run it through it’s life with a broken spring and a heavily abused Weber Carb. I’m willing to put my time and effort into the car to make it how it should be. I do like the lowered look but in all honesty it’s too low. Almost sounds like a strip down and start from scratch project :-) This car could be a death trap, so I suggest that the first thing you do is bring the ride up to somewhere near standard and get it sorted so you have a decent base line to work from. The wiring can be sorted the same way that you would eat an Elephant, one spoonful at a time or rather, as in this case, one wire at a time :-) I bought a 3 door Sierra Cosworth a few years ago to strip and sell for parts. It had been heavily modified with all the right quality parts but never finished. On stripping it down all the fuel line connectors were quality fittings, but the final one was Araldited to the fuel tank outlet pipe! NEVER trust someone else's road car modifications, the majority are undertaken by people who are unqualified and inexperienced, lacking both the necessary knowledge and skills to do the modifications safely. |
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Last Edit: Mar 17, 2023 11:59:03 GMT by nalesutol
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,603
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Mar 17, 2023 12:35:43 GMT |
Hi guys and thank you all for your responses, i can’t seem to find the prompt to post a picture on my phone, is this something that can only be done on a Desktop? First things first, before we go off on wild assumptions, if you're on mobile, scroll right to the bottom of the page and in the bottom right corner there'll be a button saying "desktop", you can then post pictures using desktop view on your phone. If you know the build thread for the car that was on here previously, link it in here so we can see what we're talking about, even if it's been further modified/bodged in the interim. |
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Mar 17, 2023 15:20:13 GMT |
Considering i’m the 9th owner i’d have a good guess and say 6 were clueless with it, the folder of history shows this. I always wanted a classic from being super young and as a 19 Year Old now i’m just feeling my feet with the thing, the amount of cost cutting and corner cutting on the car is F***ing embarrassing. For one which makes me laugh is the exhaust was held on with a Zip-Tie instead of a Rubber at the Hangar end. I also can’t begin to describe the wild birds nest which sits underneath my Dashboard which someone decided was entirely okay. 90% of the wiring is bodged and off cuts of insulation tape. Practical Classics even owned it and decided to run it through it’s life with a broken spring and a heavily abused Weber Carb. I’m willing to put my time and effort into the car to make it how it should be. I do like the lowered look but in all honesty it’s too low. Almost sounds like a strip down and start from scratch project :-) This car could be a death trap, so I suggest that the first thing you do is bring the ride up to somewhere near standard and get it sorted so you have a decent base line to work from. The wiring can be sorted the same way that you would eat an Elephant, one spoonful at a time or rather, as in this case, one wire at a time :-) I bought a 3 door Sierra Cosworth a few years ago to strip and sell for parts. It had been heavily modified with all the right quality parts but never finished. On stripping it down all the fuel line connectors were quality fittings, but the final one was Araldited to the fuel tank outlet pipe! NEVER trust someone else's road car modifications, the majority are undertaken by people who are unqualified and inexperienced, lacking both the necessary knowledge and skills to do the modifications safely. This all day long. My Humber was built by a mechanic. The fuel line was a cobbled together collection of short bits of random fuel lies and assorted couplers and clips. One brake line had a type of connector specifically prohibited in the MOT regs, guess who did the MOT's. Plenty more. Deal with the suspension/ride height first then you can deal with the rest as a rolling restoration. Taking it for an MOT is a good idea. |
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-(
2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap
V8 Humber Hawk
1948 Standard12 pickup
1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Mar 17, 2023 15:26:13 GMT |
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That’s exactly my car haha, it has deteriorated since haha and the same forum
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Mar 17, 2023 15:42:32 GMT |
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