bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,969
Club RR Member Number: 71
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It’s grim up north. bstardchild
@bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member 71
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Apr 27, 2023 22:35:22 GMT
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There seems to have arisen in recent times a mania for sealing houses up as tight as a drum in a misguided attempt to keep them warm and dry. No matter what you do water/moisture is always going to get in. It needs to be able to get back out. Most people nowadays fail to understand this and that is where the trouble starts. Exactly. Remember when everyone used to air their houses out pretty much every morning? I saw a great photo the other week of a Victorian street with every window open doing just that. It’s not only about it ‘getting in’ though. Even just the amount of water a persons breath produces is massive. The figure bandied about is half a pint per person per night whilst sleeping. And people wonder where the condensation on the window in the morning comes from! The other thing is the intrinsic link between damp and cold. People seal up their houses to make them warmer, and in doing so make them damper so actually colder. Dryness should be the thing people strive for, and warmth will follow on its own. I totally understand where you are coming from here if you'll forgive a little thread deviation and I'll try to keep it brief I live in a house built in the 80's It was built with single glazing, minimal loft insulation, empty cavities between external walls and internal walls, heat only boiler (non condescending type) and more importantly a massive 2 - 3 foot crawl space under the ground floor with air bricks every 8 bricks the whole way round the house due to the proximity of the house to a nearby river Back in 91 (when I bought it) heating it for a year burnt 25,000 kWh of gas Since purchase it's been upgraded with double glazing for all doors and windows - cavity wall insulation (wool type - after some very careful inspection of the cavities) a condescending Boiler and a curse word load of loft insulation (again with care to ensure the loft still ventilates well - ie don't stuff it into the corners of the roof) The result was a reduction in gas used per year to 18,000 kWh despite a fairly large extension nailed on one side of the house (which had to have insulation under the floor to comply with building regs.) However with the cost of gas sky rocketing and the fact that the all the floors (apart from the extension which was not cold to touch) were always freezing in the winter as well as a very drafty downstairs at feet level I decided to insulate the rest of the floor from underneath - horrible job took me nearly three months - I knew that there would be a consequence of doing this and I've been data logging humidity levels for a few years over a year so I could keep an eye on the impact sealing up the house far more than it was designed to be. This insulation has reduced the gas usage to 10,000 kWh per year however the humidity level has massively increased between 5 and 15% above what was previously the norm and during the winter we saw condensation on the internal surfaces of the windows again - something we hadn't seen since before we had double glazing fitted. Open all the windows for 30 mins and I see humidity levels back to what it was before but within a few hours it's back up again Classic example is the bathroom frequently hits 88-90 % humidity after Mrs BC and I have had a shower Open the window fully and it'll be down to 70% in 30 mins - it takes several more hours to drop below 60% with the window shut on the first latch I'm fitting a PIV unit to hopefully reduce the humidity levels back to what it was prior to the floor insulation - my view is the same - sealing up an older house is a risky thing to do - you can have mold issues - damp where you don't want it and high humidity makes the air harder to heat which uses more energy You can't expect to seal up a house with people in it unless you engineer some alternative air source to allow replacement of high humidity air with fresh stuff that has a lower humidity level |
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During our bathroom refit I added a small MVHR unit (designed for such a use) for the required ventilation. Most of the time it runs on a tickover mode with a switchable boost. Works brilliantly, issues we used to have with condensation (self inflicted, no fan) are gone and the house always feels "fresh". It's a 1950's build with added insulation as above.
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-(
2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap
V8 Humber Hawk
1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD
1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Apr 28, 2023 12:50:47 GMT
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Oh this thread is one of my favourites. My OH and I moved into an old Georgian/Victorian property (depends on which bit you're in!) that had been lived in by a couple for years - and he'd "improved" it over time with the then fashions. This is the sitting room the day we moved in - in the loft of this bay I found 1865 inscribed in one of the roofing timbers. Frankly I was amazed the shutters were still in place:  The fire was fed from 47kg bottles outside - hence the pipe snaking round the hearth. The corner unit was rotting from underneath and the plaster came off the wall when I knocked the unit out. Not really surprising really as the original wooden floor was gone, so concrete had been flopped in its place with no dpm and the ground outside was more concrete built up to over 6 inches above the air brick level. No surprise that when I got all the plaster off to reveal the original slate damp proof course in the wall, and kangol'd out the external concrete and let it all air that things got considerably drier! |
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Apr 28, 2023 21:47:22 GMT
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Yep, definitely far better to buy an old house that hasn't been ruined by someone who thought they were fixing it.
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Apr 28, 2023 23:02:29 GMT
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Some of the issue is that the way people lives in houses when they were built is different to how they are now, when I rebuilt my first house (1921 Bungalow) the fire place in the living room had no damp proof course and the back had just been filled up with rubble. This had lead to the fire place being a source of damp in the house but who in their right mind when it was built would have ever thought that a fire place might suffer with damp!
The sayings now is build tight and ventilate right and if you do that and don't do anything silly in the house then you shouldn't have any problems. I've never had any issues in my 1921 bungalow or the 2000 house we live in now and we dry clothes in the house most of the year round.
In my 1921 bungalow a lot of the internal walls were noticably not square to the external walls, my dad said it was likely because of the lack of skilled labour after WW1, in my 2000 persimmon house many of the walls are noticably off square. Looks like 80 years and better measuring instruments and training hasn't produced a better product.
Another interesting feature of the 1921 bungalow was that all the internal walls were brick on edge, the bricks were turned through 90 degrees so that their depth was their height so if they were 4 inches deep and 3 high then inside they were 3 inches deep and 4 high. This meant that they did't tie into the external walls correctly and wern't overly stable until I added some stabilisation to the junctions with the external walls.
I've worked in construction for the last 26 years and have never seen this done on any other house or building so not sure if its a common thing or just something they tried and found it was a bad idea!
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,742
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Yep, definitely far better to buy an old (...*...) that hasn't been ruined by someone who thought they were fixing it. * applies not only for houses, but also cars, bikes, wifes, etc.  |
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 2,010
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,969
Club RR Member Number: 71
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It’s grim up north. bstardchild
@bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member 71
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The sayings now is build tight and ventilate right and if you do that and don't do anything silly in the house then you shouldn't have any problems. I like that expression - good guide |
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,742
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No further comment other than she was part worn used & abused second hand when she came to me But some guys have actually bought their wives - from catalogues, e.g. from russia or eastern asia. |
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Last Edit: Apr 29, 2023 8:37:37 GMT by braaap
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Frankenhealey
Club Retro Rides Member
And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death
Posts: 3,881
Club RR Member Number: 15
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It’s grim up north. Frankenhealey
@frankenhealey
Club Retro Rides Member 15
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Exactly. Remember when everyone used to air their houses out pretty much every morning? I saw a great photo the other week of a Victorian street with every window open doing just that. It’s not only about it ‘getting in’ though. Even just the amount of water a persons breath produces is massive. The figure bandied about is half a pint per person per night whilst sleeping. And people wonder where the condensation on the window in the morning comes from! The other thing is the intrinsic link between damp and cold. People seal up their houses to make them warmer, and in doing so make them damper so actually colder. Dryness should be the thing people strive for, and warmth will follow on its own. Classic example is the bathroom frequently hits 88-90 % humidity after Mrs BC and I have had a shower Open the window fully and it'll be down to 70% in 30 mins - it takes several more hours to drop below 60% with the window shut on the first latch You could reduce that humidity by 50% by showering together. Just saying  |
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Tales of the Volcano Lair hereFrankenBug - Vulcan Power hereThe Frankenhealey here |
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,742
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Apr 29, 2023 10:11:56 GMT
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He did not state they shower separately. I'm afraid pics are mandatory here.
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,969
Club RR Member Number: 71
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It’s grim up north. bstardchild
@bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member 71
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Apr 29, 2023 14:51:56 GMT
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Lets no go there boys and girls - you’ll not like the images (physically or in your heads)
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Apr 30, 2023 21:30:26 GMT
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Exactly. Remember when everyone used to air their houses out pretty much every morning? I saw a great photo the other week of a Victorian street with every window open doing just that. It’s not only about it ‘getting in’ though. Even just the amount of water a persons breath produces is massive. The figure bandied about is half a pint per person per night whilst sleeping. And people wonder where the condensation on the window in the morning comes from! The other thing is the intrinsic link between damp and cold. People seal up their houses to make them warmer, and in doing so make them damper so actually colder. Dryness should be the thing people strive for, and warmth will follow on its own. I totally understand where you are coming from here if you'll forgive a little thread deviation and I'll try to keep it brief I live in a house built in the 80's It was built with single glazing, minimal loft insulation, empty cavities between external walls and internal walls, heat only boiler (non condescending type) and more importantly a massive 2 - 3 foot crawl space under the ground floor with air bricks every 8 bricks the whole way round the house due to the proximity of the house to a nearby river Back in 91 (when I bought it) heating it for a year burnt 25,000 kWh of gas Since purchase it's been upgraded with double glazing for all doors and windows - cavity wall insulation (wool type - after some very careful inspection of the cavities) a condescending Boiler and a curse word load of loft insulation (again with care to ensure the loft still ventilates well - ie don't stuff it into the corners of the roof) The result was a reduction in gas used per year to 18,000 kWh despite a fairly large extension nailed on one side of the house (which had to have insulation under the floor to comply with building regs.) However with the cost of gas sky rocketing and the fact that the all the floors (apart from the extension which was not cold to touch) were always freezing in the winter as well as a very drafty downstairs at feet level I decided to insulate the rest of the floor from underneath - horrible job took me nearly three months - I knew that there would be a consequence of doing this and I've been data logging humidity levels for a few years over a year so I could keep an eye on the impact sealing up the house far more than it was designed to be. This insulation has reduced the gas usage to 10,000 kWh per year however the humidity level has massively increased between 5 and 15% above what was previously the norm and during the winter we saw condensation on the internal surfaces of the windows again - something we hadn't seen since before we had double glazing fitted. Open all the windows for 30 mins and I see humidity levels back to what it was before but within a few hours it's back up again Classic example is the bathroom frequently hits 88-90 % humidity after Mrs BC and I have had a shower Open the window fully and it'll be down to 70% in 30 mins - it takes several more hours to drop below 60% with the window shut on the first latch I'm fitting a PIV unit to hopefully reduce the humidity levels back to what it was prior to the floor insulation - my view is the same - sealing up an older house is a risky thing to do - you can have mold issues - damp where you don't want it and high humidity makes the air harder to heat which uses more energy You can't expect to seal up a house with people in it unless you engineer some alternative air source to allow replacement of high humidity air with fresh stuff that has a lower humidity level We've got a 30's house with under floor vented void but not enough room to insulate and expensive oak floors glued and nailed down, I'm thinking of sealing up the air bricks and fitting a MHVR system under there through the 3 access points we do have. Never heard of any one doing it before but can't think why it wouldn't work. |
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Seems unnecessarily complicated to me.
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Fair observation in the search for thermal efficiency houses are going through the same thing cars did for emissions and moving from simple reliable (and often ineficient) equipment to fragile complicated kit.
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Jun 17, 2023 17:56:33 GMT
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Reference your comment of don't stuff the loft insulation into the corners
I look after rented property and I frequently have to adjust the loft insulation because the room has a cold area where there main ceiling is insulated but not the edges, this leads to condensation and subsequently mould
And yes I explain about the venting rooms and airing the house but houses are being SEALED more and more
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colnerov
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,879
Member is Online
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Jun 17, 2023 22:21:23 GMT
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Reference your comment of don't stuff the loft insulation into the corners I look after rented property and I frequently have to adjust the loft insulation because the room has a cold area where there main ceiling is insulated but not the edges, this leads to condensation and subsequently mould And yes I explain about the venting rooms and airing the house but houses are being SEALED more and more Hi, Yes but you can get loft vent trays to allow full insulation and still vent the loft space. -  Although corrugated plastic sheeting could be improvised. Colin |
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thomfr
Part of things
Trying to assemble the Duett again..
Posts: 694
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Any news from the North?
Thom
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73' Alfa Giulia Super
64' Volvo Duett
65' Volvo Duett
67' Volvo Amazon 123GT
09' Ford Focus 1.8
20' VW ID4
71' Benelli Motorella
65' Cyrus Speciaal
The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys
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Any news from the North? Thom No as ever nothing has happened in the North 🤣 |
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