Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Interesting you say the 5spd is meant to be weak and the 6spd better though, I’ve always known it as the other way round. I think every gti ive known had has box issues. Having had a couple of Arosa/Lupo boxes apart.... it's unsurprising the GTi rips them up. They are just too weedy for the job. Even the snorting 60bhp of our 1.7SDi was enough to chew up the bearings and diff planet wheels..... That car was surprisingly fun given it's serious lack of urge - teaches the art of momentum management! Nick VW put at least 3 gearboxes in the Lupo. The lowlier stuff had the old rod change cable clutch job like in a mk1 golf. . I can’t remember what it’s nomenclature is but it’s pretty undesirable in all applications. I think the SDi got this? 1l petrols certainly did as did the 1.4 16v petrol sport. They have the smaller CV output shafts 75mm instead of 100mm iirc?) and generally aren’t very beefy. Tdi sports got the 02x box, I think it was specifically the 02J. These are a development of the cable change hydraulic clutch 5 speed that had a long run in sportier VWs, they first came in with the mk2 gti iirc (or was it the mk3? Most b3/b4 passats used them as well) To do this they changed the majority of the front of the car (as they did with golfs and passats). Driveshafts, hubs, brakes, subframes, pedal assemblies and shifters were all different. If you want to upgrade a non-02j equipped Lupo you have to literally bare-shell the front of the car and change everything. The Lupo gti 6 speed is a believe a 02T which is developed from the earlier 02x boxes but with the extra gear. Other than the box and the shifter housing everything else is the same as in another other 02x cars I think, hence a lot of them ending up in polo gtis to replace the weak box they put in it. |
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Last Edit: Nov 1, 2021 22:02:07 GMT by Dez
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,960
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Since when has any VAG vehicle not had an eager gang of scenesters busily circle-jerking the values of vehicles into the stratosphere? 😬😂 I can't remember them been desirable when they were new though. They always seemed a bit slow. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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They had a lot of hype when they came out. ‘Spiritual successor to the mk1 golf gti’ and all that. Performance was middling, although a 6spd box was big news at the time, especially in such a small car.
They’re still quicker than an up gti though, which is quite embarrassing really.
although not as fast as a tdi sport of you remove the deliberately conservative factory map they were given.
Mine has 40% more power and 25% more torque, on all factory components and has been mapped like that for 10 years with no issues. The tdi is 50kg lighter than the petrol sport and 100kg less than the gtis as well.
The story everyone repeats is that with the ‘full’ map the tdi was quicker than either of them, so had to be reigned back or no one would buy either of the other two…
In real life, that’s 100% correct.
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The old lowly gearbox is the 085.
I believe that because it’s an upgrade of an old 4 speed golf box, 5th was added on the outside and as they get older and leak etc they can get oil starved, run hot and then eat themselves. Tend to jump out of 5th when they get hot.
I think the 02 boxes are much better, but as you said, a real mission to swap
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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The old lowly gearbox is the 085. I believe that because it’s an upgrade of an old 4 speed golf box, 5th was added on the outside and as they get older and leak etc they can get oil starved, run hot and then eat themselves. Tend to jump out of 5th when they get hot. I think the 02 boxes are much better, but as you said, a real mission to swap Yeah that’s the one. I’ve broken every one I’ve even had 😂 I remember getting a caddy as a trade on a project I was selling, asked my mate about em beforehand as he’d had a couple. He said ‘it’ll be rusty and the gearbox will break’. The deal was still good enough so I went for it anyway, it was rusty but that didn’t matter too much as I could sort it out as I went. I had it a week and the gearbox broke 😂 It did the thing where something fails inside and you can only get two gears, typically 2nd/3rd. I’d still have another though, really enjoyed that car. |
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my knowledge of old vw boxes is so rusty now, but I remember the mk2 golf 16v had the 02y box that used to die regularly, the mk3 8v had a similar one with a monster tall top gear. 02A was hydraulic clutch passat box and much was much stronger that later became the 02J box that you got in the mk4s. I had an 02M 6 speed for my mk2 that was stupid heavy, barely fit and needed different driveshafts...
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Yes, it was indeed the 085 and rod change. Though as far as I remember all of the Arosas and Lupos along with a wide selection of Polos, Ibiza’s and even some Fabias used variations on the same 085 theme, but with a bewildering variety of ratios. The only ones I recall being different were the big block 1.9 TDI and 1.4TDI, which used some variation of the 020 family and were regarded as being much stronger. The 1.7 and 1.9SDI were particularly odd being 085 with big block bell housings whereas all others were small block.
The box that came with car was the internals from a 1.0 petrol in as SDI casings. Made it quicker off the mark but literally on the governor at 68mph…. Not acceptable. Finding a replacement was problematic and I was strongly advised to check inside it before fitting. Was good advice as a couple of bearings and the planet wheels were on their last legs…. The rebuild was successful but I won’t be rushing to do another!
I got considerable help from the guys on the Club Polo forum at the time and they certainly regarded the gearboxes as consumables on the bigger engined cars.
Hopefully the Panda is more robust! Seems like a cracking little car that I wasn’t really aware of before.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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hudson66 and lewdeak , yeah I still have a lupo (tdi sport) on the fleet and still have a thing for them. The chassis in them isn’t much cop out the box though, I’d never consider owning one without aftermarket coilovers, as they’re wet and wallowy, but you both know that already. That’s what surprises me about the Fiat, the suspension is so right from factory, I was actually shocked on the test drive. Interesting you say the 5spd is meant to be weak and the 6spd better though, I’ve always known it as the other way round. I think every gti ive known had has box issues. Tdi sport, what a dream! Yeah i completely agree, very wollowy out the box, i had to put coilovers on it before i even put it on the road! Drove a standard 100bhp Panda before and could not believe how good it was! Yeah as far as i'm aware anyway the 6speed is the stronger box as it's a variant derived from the MK4 Golf, i've not blown this one up yet anyway (and don't want to, they're tearful prices now) and i've given it a fair kicking in it's lifetime too, probably helped by the fact i'm not the typical chav doing burnouts in it everywhere haha. Only gearboxes i've gone through were on my 6N2, that went through 3 boxes in just over 10k miles. oddly enough, the strongest box i've had was my 1.0 8v box. I put a 0.74 5th on it when i swapped the 8v out for the 100bhp 1.4, kicked it's head in everywhere and it's still going strong now with it's new owner. I put nearly 75k on that box hahaha |
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Last Edit: Nov 2, 2021 11:26:52 GMT by lewdeak
Insta: lewdeak1986 E28 518I 50% of a MK1 Golf 2003 Lupo GTI |
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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They had a lot of hype when they came out. ‘Spiritual successor to the mk1 golf gti’ and all that. Performance was middling, although a 6spd box was big news at the time, especially in such a small car. They’re still quicker than an up gti though, which is quite embarrassing really. although not as fast as a tdi sport of you remove the deliberately conservative factory map they were given. Mine has 40% more power and 25% more torque, on all factory components and has been mapped like that for 10 years with no issues. The tdi is 50kg lighter than the petrol sport and 100kg less than the gtis as well. The story everyone repeats is that with the ‘full’ map the tdi was quicker than either of them, so had to be reigned back or no one would buy either of the other two… In real life, that’s 100% correct. Its really easy to make an up! GTI faster though. The main reason VAG reigned in the up! GTI was because they wanted to push it as the 'new' Golf Mk1 GTI and match the BHP. I don't think most buyers care though. 150bhp with a £300 remap really shows the up!s potential though, with 185bhp attainable with a hybrid turbo swap. |
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braaap
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,746
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Can anybody of You lupo fanciers say something about the autobox, too? My wife fancies one for a longtime, in fantasia green with the matching green interior.  |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Can anybody of You lupo fanciers say something about the autobox, too? My wife fancies one for a longtime, in fantasia green with the matching green interior. I my opinion Small engine car+autobox=awful. I just wouldn’t go near one at all. Obviously medical needs may dictate otherwise for other people, but you won’t be getting the same experience everyone else does with the manual version and I’d fully expect you to hate the car because of it. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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They had a lot of hype when they came out. ‘Spiritual successor to the mk1 golf gti’ and all that. Performance was middling, although a 6spd box was big news at the time, especially in such a small car. They’re still quicker than an up gti though, which is quite embarrassing really. although not as fast as a tdi sport of you remove the deliberately conservative factory map they were given. Mine has 40% more power and 25% more torque, on all factory components and has been mapped like that for 10 years with no issues. The tdi is 50kg lighter than the petrol sport and 100kg less than the gtis as well. The story everyone repeats is that with the ‘full’ map the tdi was quicker than either of them, so had to be reigned back or no one would buy either of the other two… In real life, that’s 100% correct. Its really easy to make an up! GTI faster though. The main reason VAG reigned in the up! GTI was because they wanted to push it as the 'new' Golf Mk1 GTI and match the BHP. I don't think most buyers care though. 150bhp with a £300 remap really shows the up!s potential though, with 185bhp attainable with a hybrid turbo swap. Those motors have the reputation for being chocolate though. Is it wise pushing one that far? |
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,302
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Its really easy to make an up! GTI faster though. The main reason VAG reigned in the up! GTI was because they wanted to push it as the 'new' Golf Mk1 GTI and match the BHP. I don't think most buyers care though. 150bhp with a £300 remap really shows the up!s potential though, with 185bhp attainable with a hybrid turbo swap. Those motors have the reputation for being chocolate though. Is it wise pushing one that far? Several running 180+ in the UK, and the South American lot are pushing them into mid 250s without issue. I've done 20k on mine mapped to 150bhp with zero issues. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Well with all the talk about them I got all enthused about my Lupo again, after realising it wasnt even MOTed! I’d have some issues earlier in the year with it mixing fluids so I’d just parked it up and everything had run out. I finally got round to fixing it in may. The symptoms? It was mixing fluids ina fairly spectacular fashion.      But, I knew it wasnt the head gasket as there were zero symptoms of actual HGF. It still has full power, wasnt difficult to start etc. The big clue was it has oil in the water but no water in the oil. This points to one thing, that can be seen in the pic above- the oil cooler. If they fail becuase the oil runs at a higher pressure than the cooling system, it only mixes one way. Tbh they’re fairly well known as a fail point on PDs, and a new genuine one is only about £30. A bit fiddly to fit but much easier if you have a ramp. The issue then is you’re left with sludgemaggedon in the cooling system. I disconnected everything I could and blasted out as much as possible with the jet wash (that was fun, p1ss wet through and covered in chunks of oil sludge). To finish the job I did this- http://instagram.com/p/CSwLvs9jE9z And it appears to have worked just fine. You don’t need to keep having to drop the water as the dishwasher tablets float all the cr4p to the top, so you can just open the header tank every now and then and scoop it out with a rag. The heaters are now really good but the thermostat is a bit slow so I’ll wait til no more oil is appearing then I’ll fit a new one. The mileage the oil cooler failed at?  Exact! So on Weds i ran it down for a test.  Only minor issues noted, until a wheel cyl sprang a leak on the way back! Well, it has been parked up for a while and I don’t think I’ve ever done them in our ownership, so they’re at least 10 years old. Parts ordered and I’ll replace the lot when the bits turn up. I’ve also managed to partially break the wiper switch, it still works but only on some settings. so I had to spend a whole £15 on a new one. |
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Last Edit: Nov 5, 2021 9:51:28 GMT by Dez
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Chris™
Part of things
This is clearly filler material.
Posts: 519
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Dishwasher tablet trick is a new one for me, I'll have to remember that! |
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1989 Volvo 340
1986 Suzuki SJ413
2000 BMW 318ti
2006 Lexus IS250
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jamesd1972
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,921 
Club RR Member Number: 40
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That oil cooler takes me back to a MK2 Golf GTI I had that did it. Was very happy it wasn't a HGF but the mess was horrific. Luckily work had a big hot / steam pressure wash for cleaning trucks that I asked nicely to use. Still took ages before ran clean and even longer to clean the yard up !
Dishwasher tab looks like a good idea but they have caustic in them and hot caustic is nasty stuff to tread carefully and might drop it before too long.
Keep the updates coming its nice to see that everybody has their poxy car gone wrong again moments and seeing them properly sorted.
James
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That oil cooler takes me back to a MK2 Golf GTI I had that did it. Was very happy it wasn't a HGF but the mess was horrific. Luckily work had a big hot / steam pressure wash for cleaning trucks that I asked nicely to use. Still took ages before ran clean and even longer to clean the yard up ! Dishwasher tab looks like a good idea but they have caustic in them and hot caustic is nasty stuff to tread carefully and might drop it before too long. Keep the updates coming its nice to see that everybody has their poxy car gone wrong again moments and seeing them properly sorted. James Me too. Sludgemageddon covers it nicely….. could have done with the dishwasher tab trick then. Never did quite get all of the snot out of it…… We were thinking evil thoughts with an early Arosa and FWD TT parked side by side……. Senior management is fond of her TT though (someone has to be) and it looked like a lot of work! Nick |
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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That oil cooler takes me back to a MK2 Golf GTI I had that did it. Was very happy it wasn't a HGF but the mess was horrific. Luckily work had a big hot / steam pressure wash for cleaning trucks that I asked nicely to use. Still took ages before ran clean and even longer to clean the yard up ! Dishwasher tab looks like a good idea but they have caustic in them and hot caustic is nasty stuff to tread carefully and might drop it before too long. Keep the updates coming its nice to see that everybody has their poxy car gone wrong again moments and seeing them properly sorted. James Yeah, once it’s deemed clean enough it’ll get the coolant dropped and proper stuff back in- although I guess engine oil is a form of antifreeze 😬 I’ve only really got a week or two before i need to do that anyway, given the time of year. But to get the system clean I need to be using it so I’ve timed it a about right I guess. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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That oil cooler takes me back to a MK2 Golf GTI I had that did it. Was very happy it wasn't a HGF but the mess was horrific. Luckily work had a big hot / steam pressure wash for cleaning trucks that I asked nicely to use. Still took ages before ran clean and even longer to clean the yard up ! Dishwasher tab looks like a good idea but they have caustic in them and hot caustic is nasty stuff to tread carefully and might drop it before too long. Keep the updates coming its nice to see that everybody has their poxy car gone wrong again moments and seeing them properly sorted. James Me too. Sludgemageddon covers it nicely….. could have done with the dishwasher tab trick then. Never did quite get all of the snot out of it…… We were thinking evil thoughts with an early Arosa and FWD TT parked side by side……. Senior management is fond of her TT though (someone has to be) and it looked like a lot of work! Nick As the previous discussion has kinda covered, it gets a lot easier of you start with the right model with the right gearbox. You need it to be a tall block, so the tdi sport is actually the best option. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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So, fleet reduction….  😬 I’m my defence it’s a parts car and was cheap. The simple reason is it’s quicker, easier and cheaper to pay £265 (for that is what I paid, with a months ticket left) for such a fine example of pseudo-Czech engineering than it is to buy the bits to improve the pickup to a standard I’m happy with any other way. It’s the same model motor as the pickup, has only done 70k and the interior is pretty minty, which will go a long way to stopping the pickup looking (and smelling) like a 25 year old work truck.  Its a reasonably good spec one (a ‘pacific’), I basically bought it for the interior (carpets/dash/other plastics) and the power steering setup, plus the centre console and tacho equipped gauges. All the good stuff the pickups didn’t get. It comes with the added bonus of various sellable bits- body colour facelift bumper with fogs, facelift grille, good condition seats, etc. Plus any stock bits anyone needs. It’s a bit doggy on the outside in the usual places, and won’t see another test without quite a lot of welding to the rear arches, hence it meeting its maker. The entire interior and dash was out within two hours of getting back, that I completely neglected to take a pic of. Next morning all the front end panel work came off and I started on the ancillaries. I left it up at my other house for the minute (I bought it in the north) so it’s out the way, next time I go up I need to take an engine crane and hoik the engine and box out, then get it on the truck and pull the front suspension and steering rack, the complete front doors, then it’s getting fragged. I’ve brought the interior and a few other bits and bobs back down with me though, so they can be swapped over immediately. |
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