LAndy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,061
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Feb 21, 2020 15:10:00 GMT
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 Hi Everybody! This is our steel behemoth, a 1965 Clark Cortez RV.  It's powered by a 1973 Dodge 5.9 V8 LA engine which obviously has a manual choke and cab and it is a be-a-t-ch to start on cold mornings! I want to convert it to EFI, there are no real drawbacks with a lot of positives (easier starting / improved efficiency / better MPG). My questions are: Has anyone done the conversion? Either on a V8 or otherwise. Which manufacturer did you use? Other things to upgrade at the same time? Distributor / Ignition leads / Ignition coil / other? Any issues / problems? Also, if you're interested here is a video tour of our Cortez. Many thanks! Andy |
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Previous retros: 92 AX GTi 92 Scirocco Scala 94 80 sport 87 Golf Cab GTi Current retro: 1965 Clark Cortez YouTube Website Instagram |
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Feb 21, 2020 17:08:53 GMT
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Only ever done 4cyl but I guess the priciples are the same:
Firsty do you really need FI, on something in a low state of tune like this a properly set up unworn carb should start fine and not be that different to FI on fuel.
Fi tech seems to get mixed reviews, Personally I'm not convinced it's going to be that much better than a decent carb.
If you take the trouble to go FI I would also go fully mapped distributor less ignition, this can give some major improvements over an old points system. For full multipoint FI the first issue will be hardware, if there is a FI version of the engine it's not too difficult, if not it's expensive bespoke parts or make it yourself. Then you will need a a handfull of sensors and suitable tappings/ mountings for them finally you will need a controller, loads of aftermarket ones out there but they are all fairly expensive. After its all put together and wired in it needs mapping , if you can find a rolling road it will fit in! FI is certainly the way to go if you have tuned or boosted engines or want to run a catalyst but I'm not sure the results will be worth the effort on this.
Is LPG an option? Something like this would work well with even a basic single point system.
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Feb 21, 2020 17:53:29 GMT
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Later versions of the LA engine had FI.
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-(
2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap
V8 Humber Hawk
1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD
1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Feb 21, 2020 18:56:17 GMT
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Neither the fi tech or sniper get great reviews as a retrofit item on a lot of the American specific forums and groups. Quite a few people have tried it and gone back to a carb. As noted above, it’s often no better than a well set up carb, and like most aftermarket electronics they seem to be glitchy, randomly forgetting leaned settings and not liking cold starting.
Part of the issue is the ignition on such engines isn’t sophisticated enough to make any advantage of what the FI is capable of, and neither is the cam timing. All 3 have to be in perfect harmony for an engine to work at its best, but the efi unit is only guessing at what a chain driven cam and a gear driven, mechanical vac advance dizzy is doing. For it to really work and actually provide any advantage you really need to convert to a coil pack, trigger wheel driven ignition system and a more accurately timed cam setup (gears or vernier pulleys or whatever).
Your poor cold starting is just down to bad choke or carb setup, or maybe excessive engine wear- in which case no fancy efi unit is going to fix it. Depending on what you have it might just need the choke setting up, or a replacement carb that doesn’t have years of wear on it.
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Last Edit: Feb 21, 2020 18:59:16 GMT by Dez
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Feb 21, 2020 21:30:17 GMT
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Main points already made but
FITech is basically an electronic carb. To get real benefit you need multipoint. I would agree with the comments about trigger wheel triggered, ECU controlled ignition ignition being the way to also.
Have you done the basic checks and service on the engine. Compression check?
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Feb 21, 2020 22:39:39 GMT
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I have no first hand experience on this but the bloke I work with is currently looking into it and so was I
All the above comments are well worth considering before shelling out a load of money
The bloke I work with Is going to buy the summit racing version which looks to be a copy of the fi-tech system but half the price
For him it makes Sence because he is doing an engine swop for a bigger motor and therefore would have to replace the current carb
So going down this route isn't that much different cost wise and his hoping to get better MPG at the end
For me I'm going to go full fuel and ignition ECU set up
It is more expensive to buy and install but it will work whatever the environment throughout the Rev range
my biggest concern with any of the carb injection systems is after sales back up
If you have a problem who do you go to ??
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1992 240 Volvo T8
1955 Cadillac
1994 BMW E34 M5 (now sold )
1999 BMW E36 sport touring x2
1967 Hillman imp Californian "rally spec"
1971 VW bay window (work in progress)
1999 Mazda 323F
1987 Jaguar XJ12
All current
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samta22
Club Retro Rides Member
Stuck in once more...
Posts: 1,276 
Club RR Member Number: 32
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Interesting topic this and one I've been reading without commenting as I've not yet done the conversion. That said I have one in a box next to where I'm sitting so think it's worth me chucking my thoughts down anyway. So firstly what one have I got... the FiTech... that's not to say it's the 'right' one however 😉 My view from all the reading/research I've done is that they are all seemingly equal and both have good/bad points, watch an episode of wheeler dealers and they'll use a FiTech, Gas Monkey it's the Holley Sniper, each to their own it would appear. What made me go down the route I have is that it's been done a few times with the car/engine set up I have it for and I'm building it from scratch so can get everything as a 'system' so to speak. In doing so I'm hoping that irons out some of the potential issues I might have come up against... we shall see. From what I have seen, the biggest issue with all these systems as has been already said is support. Here in the UK I now have a very good contact who has offered to set the car up if I have any issues, in the states seemingly there is a good network too so worth reading up on which is best for your area, other places you are on your own. For a global product it seems that the support is often a second thought. Will see how I go with mine when I get to it eventually, I'm keeping an open mind and if I end up having to get a edlebrook to swap in then so be it, my rationale is a little different in that I'm purposely trying to be different (my mother always said i was awkward!), it may still bite me on the ar5e yet. Will try and keep this thread updated on progress. In the meantime I've been watching bjornagn thread re his battles forum.retro-rides.org/thread/179752/1973-volvo-p1800es-chassis-conversion?page=57Either way best of luck with the project and keep the updates coming, you guys look like you're having fun along the way which is always the bit most of us forget to do! Sam |
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'37 Austin 7 '56 Austin A35 '58 Austin A35 '65 Triumph Herald 12/50 '69 MGB GT '74 MGB GT V8'73 TA22 Toyota Celica restoration'95 Mercedes SL320 '04 MGTF 135 'Cool Blue' (Mrs' Baby) '05 Land Rover Discovery 3 V8 '67 Abarth 595 (Mrs' runabout) '18 Disco V |
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Feb 22, 2020 10:04:03 GMT
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I've also been doing some investigating, mainly around the Sniper. On ElCo forums and a few hot rodder groups in the US.
It seems to me there are strongly divided opinions. Some people swear by them, others say they are not worth it and a fair number of people say they are more trouble than it's worth and they eventually went back to a carb.
I think that strong division of opinion comes down to the fitting and set-up, and I think the manufacturer's marketing has a part to play in that.
These kinds of things are promoted as being an almost plug&play swap... drop it on and your worries are over. The makers of these systems really emphasise this and put out promotional things saying you'll be ready to go in under an hour.
That's not true. A lot has to happen to get these things installed and set up correctly.
So my conclusion is that the 50% who have had bad experiences possibly got duped by the marketing message and have not been able to do the installation properly, leaving them disappointed with the results.
Shortly after buying my current car last summer I very nearly treated myself to a Sniper to drop on it, and I'm really glad I didn't because I would be one of those duped by the marketing and now struggling.
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Last Edit: Feb 22, 2020 10:11:30 GMT by Deleted
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dazee
Part of things
Posts: 96
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Feb 22, 2020 10:48:54 GMT
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Also been considering FI and have looked for info from different sources, mostly USA forums. Reviews are pretty much 50/50 on any of the available Brands. None of them are a simple bolt on conversion as you also have to add high pressure fuel pump, fuel filters and fuel return line to tank.
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Feb 22, 2020 11:47:08 GMT
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I've also been doing some investigating, mainly around the Sniper. On ElCo forums and a few hot rodder groups in the US. It seems to me there are strongly divided opinions. Some people swear by them, others say they are not worth it and a fair number of people say they are more trouble than it's worth and they eventually went back to a carb. I think that strong division of opinion comes down to the fitting and set-up, and I think the manufacturer's marketing has a part to play in that. These kinds of things are promoted as being an almost plug&play swap... drop it on and your worries are over. The makers of these systems really emphasise this and put out promotional things saying you'll be ready to go in under an hour. That's not true. A lot has to happen to get these things installed and set up correctly. So my conclusion is that the 50% who have had bad experiences possibly got duped by the marketing message and have not been able to do the installation properly, leaving them disappointed with the results. Shortly after buying my current car last summer I very nearly treated myself to a Sniper to drop on it, and I'm really glad I didn't because I would be one of those duped by the marketing and now struggling. Ahh the old "plug & play" quote used by so many manufacturers, you just know when that's mentioned as a plus point your in for a world of headache! |
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,060
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Feb 22, 2020 19:54:21 GMT
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The biggest problem with most of the carb replacement EFI kits is the fact that they have 4 injectors in the throttle body housing, instead of being an injector per port opening. So you get the same idea of air/fuel mix as with a carb, and none of the real benefits of an injector just a bit upstream of the inlet valve itself  This also brings headache issues with cold start running as well |
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,960
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Feb 22, 2020 20:21:20 GMT
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I've messed with both at work and they're both pretty naff. No better than fitting a new carb anyway.
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Feb 23, 2020 20:00:03 GMT
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I spoke to a garage that specialized in American cars who had some experience of working on them and the advice I was given was to stay away from them and stick with a carb. I was also told the fuel economy in the real world is not as good as claimed.
At least with a carb you have a chance of fixing it and the spares are easily found in this country.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 2,010
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Feb 23, 2020 20:05:03 GMT
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I know nothing about Dodge V8s so this may be a daft suggestion, but can't you make an OEM injection system from a newer vehicle work on your engine?
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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pxr5
Part of things
Posts: 202
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Feb 24, 2020 11:56:07 GMT
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Get your ignition etc correct, fit a new 4 barrel vacuum secondry holly & choose a smaller carb, no bigger than 600cfm withh care you can get decent milage & perfomance,
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LAndy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,061
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Feb 24, 2020 14:04:10 GMT
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Sorry for being MIA guys! I'm really surprised with all of the feedback! Thank you so much! I really appreciate it! It appears the general consensus is to stay with a traditional carb setup and get it running spot on. I am happy to go this route and would rather go this way than trying to add EFI from a later model 360 LA engine or swapping it completely. The suggestion of LPG is a good one, though I have no experience or knowledge about it at all. Also, with our Cortez been FWD there is virtually no under vehicle storage and as it is relatively small I'm not sure where would be best to keep the tank. I'm also not sure how readily available it is in the States - This is because a) I've never looked for it b)I've never heard anyone talking about it here. I'll do a bit more research and keep this thread updated for everyone. samta22 it would be cool if you could keep us updated too! I'll do some research into suitable carburetor and maybe into upgrading the ignition side of things with MSD. Is this worthwhile? Again, many thanks for the help guys! Andy |
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Previous retros: 92 AX GTi 92 Scirocco Scala 94 80 sport 87 Golf Cab GTi Current retro: 1965 Clark Cortez YouTube Website Instagram |
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Mar 10, 2020 10:52:42 GMT
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All I can add is avoid the FiTech like the plague!!
Fit an Edelbrock carb - far superior to a Holley and much easier to adjust/tune and give better mpg. You can pop the top off in minutes at the side of the road and reassemble without losing a drop of petrol. Holleys are old fashioned design now and are prone to leaking from the end bowls.
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Frankenhealey
Club Retro Rides Member
And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death
Posts: 3,882
Club RR Member Number: 15
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Mar 10, 2020 11:21:00 GMT
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All I can add is avoid the FiTech like the plague!! Fit an Edelbrock carb - far superior to a Holley and much easier to adjust/tune and give better mpg. You can pop the top off in minutes at the side of the road and reassemble without losing a drop of petrol. Holleys are old fashioned design now and are prone to leaking from the end bowls. I second this emotion. The Healey has had an Edelbrock 1404 for a while and out of all the 4-barrels that have ever been on there in my ownership it is by far and away the best. Not perfect but then no carb ever is but so easy to work on and with an air/fuel meter calibrating your setup is a piece of poop. Just don't lose any of the tiny clips that secure the metering rods because they are a barsteward to find again. |
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Tales of the Volcano Lair hereFrankenBug - Vulcan Power hereThe Frankenhealey here |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Mar 10, 2020 11:59:09 GMT
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The edelbrock carbs are Carter AFBs license built by Weber. I have them on a couple of cars and agree they’re the best 4 barrel carb available.
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Mar 19, 2020 17:43:47 GMT
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I am into year two of getting a Fitech to run properly. I bought the thing with the belief that once installed I would need to give it as much thought as I do the EFI on my daily driver. The first year I wasted on line asking poorly chossen or phraed questions in the hopes that one of the hundred options on the handheld would solve the problems. It took until year two to realize that I needed to learn how to read and interpret data logs. This is what day one felt like:  I already spoke conversational carburetor, and had no desire to learn about EFI. A year later and I am now conversant on EFI theory of operation.Much like reading an advance Physics book, I can say the words and have some comprehenion of what they mean, but am not fully able to solve the problems. I have the Fitech runing reasonably well but for a propensity to shut itself off at intersections when decelerating.I mean, you can certainly see the potential of this thing...if it were ever to work as promised. The nail in the coffin is that having learned what I have learned, I could never trust the Fitech on a long journey. Like you would take in a mobile home. The Fitech is a collection of cheap GM knock-off parts traveling in close formation. I will complete my education and hopefully get the Molvo running perfectly with the Fitech and then switch to a Holley Street Avenger carb that I already bought. |
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