ToolsnTrack
Posted a lot
Homebrew Raconteur
Posts: 4,121
Club RR Member Number: 134
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Most of us have heard the news this morning that the UK is pushing to ban petrol cars by 2035. Most who know me would know that as a "petrol head", a man that has an almost fanatical obsession with the internal combustion engine, would expect this to be a rant on all the reasons why this wont work. Buckle up kids... it's not. I have no kids, so some would expect me not to understand the importance of leaving something for the next generation that is better than now, but no. I know the harm, even with the latest emission control equipment, that petrol and diesel cars do. Yet I don't wish to immediately emigrate at this news. My work life, in a company that has such a huge role in the powered services, should be in turmoil and panic with the news this morning, but as with all good business successes, welcoming change is the first step to prosperity. We will adapt. No, the reason for this post is not to bleat endlessly about how this wont work, but to highlight the issue of why to-date it hasn't, and humbly suggest a discussion for us on how to embrace this. Ready?.... Its convenience. Electric cars at present are not convenient. The big problem I see is that we are trying so hard to make electric cars adapt to what we know with IC cars. We expect them to be able to charge at the same pace as we refill presently, and at the same locations. The technology is not ready for that, and might never be for all we know. For the UK to truly adapt to this we need to rethink how electric cars are a convenience to us. And as with all good British engineering success stories, the solution is this: Standardisation. Our principle that makes us truly brilliant worldwide is NOT our ability to wave curse word flags at a parade, leave unions, attract tourists and all that nonsense. Our engineering and manufacturing won because we standardised, allowing for a mass production and increase in pace. This, my wonderful readers, is how the electric car battle is won. Why treat charging like the way we treat refuelling? It isn't the same! We need to standardise a power cell, standardise the recipient for the cell, standardise the voltage and amperage the vehicles use, have "petrol" stations RENT these to drivers, and recharge them for us. How many cars pass through a petrol station in 4 hours? Lets estimate 500. A station with a rotating stock of batteries being charged, 500 of them, taking the inconvenience out of waiting. Imagine if you could pay your VLD and this rental of batteries was included in it, so ANPR reduced the need for us to carry paperwork or cards for it. Just pay and go like we do now. Imagine the infrastructure for changing the batteries meant that you parked and a machine circulated it up from a cellar and into your car! Wouldn't work? There are underground tanks at EVERY SINGLE petrol station already, don't tell me infrastructure cant be made if there is money at the end of it. Not enough time? We get a new iPhone every 3 years and we don't need that. Imagine what we could achieve with 15? The reason all this doesn't work is because manufacturers have no standards, they throw out all different options. You cannot do this at present because its not an option. But if you can ban petrol cars in 15 years, you can certainly made a standardisation that will allow the population the convenience they deserve. Some food for thought Boris.
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Well said. I also consider myself to be a petrolhead in addition to a retrohead but I welcome the advent of the EV. I will just enjoy the ICE in the meantime while I can.
What I'm looking forward to more than new build EVs is the availability of conversion kits and new battery technology that will allow enthusiasts to keep retro cars running well into the future. Referencing your post, at the moment these things are not standardised enough to be cost effective.
I look forward to the day we can buy off the shelf motors, batteries and control units that are ready to drop in place and cheap enough for the DIY shedder to do conversions. I am really interested in where in hub motors are going. If they can get the unsprung weight issue solved then just imagine dropping all those heavy unreliable engine and drivetrain components out and having lightweight individually controllable motors at each corner. Blasphemy I'm sure you are thinking, but as an IT and electronics geek I'm looking forward to the opportunities that could come with that.
As much as I love spannering a cars dirty bits I also look forward to not having to worry about them.
At the same time I do hope there is never an outright ban on ICE, or at least some alternative fuel that will allow us to still enjoy the grumpy snarl of a V8.
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Last Edit: Feb 4, 2020 11:22:03 GMT by juular
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Mmm, I've considered this. This is how we run all the electric vehicles at work (theres 100s on site). When the battery is low you simply go to the battery house and they lift the old one out and fit a new one in. The batterys are stored on charging racks just like you would any other kind of battery. It certainly helps with the charging/range issue. Probably the only way battery powered cars could ever work but like everything it's not the route we are taking, there is no common sense being applied.
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vanpeebles
Part of things
I am eastbound in pursuit of a white Lamborghini, this is not a recording.
Posts: 978
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I wouldn't consider fitting electric motors to my classics. The change in feel/sound/smell/how it drives would be too drastic and would defeat the point of having an old car in the first place.
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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As far as keeping our retros on the road this is entirely possible using carbon neutral fuels manufactured with excess energy from nuclear power. I think this is the way larger vehicles and aviation will have to go so hopefully it will become avalible. Not that the carbon from keeping retros on the road is at all significant in the first place but you can bet tax on carbon fuels will go through the roof if there is an alternative.
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The modular replacement battery swapping design sounds sensible and a good solution to the charging time issue.
My only concern would be over quality control and calculating range. We know that battery range decreases with age and number of charge cycles. I wouldn't like to visit a top up station expecting a 300 mile battery swap and yet receive some tired cells that only deliver half that. One of the benefits of ICE is that you can fairly accurate say that one fill up will give you X miles give or take, and so a long journey can be planned with some confidence.
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I wouldn't consider fitting electric motors to my classics. The change in feel/sound/smell/how it drives would be too drastic and would defeat the point of having an old car in the first place. Understood completely. My concern is when compatible fuels become either obsolete or too expensive to justify. I don't know enough about that subject to say when or even if that might happen. Will there be enough of a market for compatible ICE fuels once EV uptake has become established as the norm? Crude oil extraction and refinement isn't exactly something an indie can take on so maybe homebrew biofuel will become a thing. Edit: Slater pre-empted me on this. Looking it up now!
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Last Edit: Feb 4, 2020 11:20:58 GMT by juular
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vanpeebles
Part of things
I am eastbound in pursuit of a white Lamborghini, this is not a recording.
Posts: 978
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I wouldn't consider fitting electric motors to my classics. The change in feel/sound/smell/how it drives would be too drastic and would defeat the point of having an old car in the first place. Understood completely. My concern is when compatible fuels become either obsolete or too expensive to justify. I don't know enough about that subject to say when or even if that might happen. Will there be enough of a market for compatible ICE fuels once EV uptake has become established as the norm? Crude oil extraction and refinement isn't exactly something an indie can take on so maybe homebrew biofuel will become a thing. I think when that time comes, I'll be too old or past caring anyway
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Well as a contrast I think we should be open to conversions, certainly making sure my scabby selection of weird cars keep rolling whatever happens in the political climate is important to me, and if the answer is gutting an electric forklift to make a strange sounding creation that can cover 50 miles and tops out at 50mph... then so be it, I could have a lot of fun doing it. I don't think leasing or renting batteries will solve anything. It's perfectly possible that the hydrogen fuel cell will re-surface - a commodity that can be sold like existing fuels for 1.20 a litre - pretty sure the big companies would jump on that bandwagon?
Also with EV's now boasting a much larger range - most users have no real problem planning charging stops for overnight, it's only a real issue when a particularly long trip is on the cards.
Another one to ponder, nobody has explained that based on the assumption a lot of EV charging is done at home - how are they planning on charging fuel duty when/if everyone has one? Will they start rumours about road pricing again?
Just my 2p's there. Whatever the future I want it to be low-tech because the repair-ability of the vehicles I use is their strong point.
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"A Pierburg carb? It would be more economical to replace it with a funnel..."
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,924
Club RR Member Number: 174
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The daftest thing I find with people who are against electric vehicles is when you ask them how many miles they do a week it's always curse word all. I do 350 miles a week for work which is fairly high, so basically I'd have to charge my car twice a week. Not really a inconvenience. Obviously there are types of driving/jobs that don't suit, but pretty much everybody I know thinks they've done a lot of driving if they do 100 miles a week.
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gryphon
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 330
Club RR Member Number: 157
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The daftest thing I find with people who are against electric vehicles is when you ask them how many miles they do a week it's always curse word all. I do 350 miles a week for work which is fairly high, so basically once a week I'd have to charge my car twice a week. Not really a inconvenience. Obviously there are types of driving/jobs that don't suit, but pretty much everybody I know thinks they've done a lot of driving if they do 100 miles a week. Agreed. I think this is why the battery swap model hasn't actually taken off - with very rough calculations, 350 / 5 = 70 miles per day. Plugged into a 7kw home charger overnight, during normal use you'd never need to visit a fast charger or get a battery swap. The same goes for the vast majority of vehicle use. I commute 30 miles per day - any EV on the market would manage that with just a home charger. If the batteries were hot swappable there would actually be limited demand and with charging networks growing and getting faster on a yearly basis the range anxiety issue should decrease with time. The above does ignore the issue that lots of people have on street parking and don't have access to a home charger, but there are various plans - none particularly well developed yet - for street side chargers. There are definitely issues with this... such as a lot of heavy copper cabling sitting unprotected on the street... But there are various companies trying different ideas to solve this issue. For those that travel longer distances regularly battery swapping makes much more sense, but relatively speaking the market is quite small. I'm not against standardisation, but I see a lot of challenges to it. I think it is excellent in theory but very difficult to achieve in reality. Engineering wise, currently the battery technology is a large factor in the competitiveness of an EV - Tesla have their own chemistry, manufacturers use different cell types, cell voltages suppliers etc to make the battery as competitive as possible. It is the single most expensive component in any decent range EV and is optimised for each application. As it is also the largest, most difficult to package component new EV chassis are also designed around the battery. It is regularly used as a structural component in the chassis, as the battery pack has to be built to meet various impact standards, as well as containing a thermal runaway within the battery if a fault occurs, that it makes no sense to duplicate that strength within the chassis. I believe that removing the battery pack from a Tesla Model S compromises the structure to the extent that you're not supposed to get in it without the battery in place. Once the battery is considered a structural member of the vehicle, a standardised swappable battery becomes even more difficult. It impacts on the crash performance and the vehicle homoligation - the regulation that every single battery would have to meet would be insane. Politically wise, EV's are designed for a global market and even if we could create a UK standard for a swappable battery, would we be able to convince Japanese/European/American etc OEM's that it's worth creating a new variant of all their cars for the UK market - or convincing other countries to adopt the standard. EV technology is also in its infancy, so creating a widely adopted standard battery at this point may serve to limit the innovation that is needed to improve EV's (hopefully) to the point that we wonder why people ever considered swappable batteries necessary in the first place!
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ToolsnTrack
Posted a lot
Homebrew Raconteur
Posts: 4,121
Club RR Member Number: 134
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Gryphon
Our power sockets are standardised, doesnt stop american products being adapted. Our cars are RHD, doesn't stop other car manufacturers making cars for us. Simply put, there's money in it, so it can be made to work.
Also, given its a mandatory thing that folks will HAVE to buy in 15 years, you have a target market. I just really hope they put the thought into it properly, and TBH I hope the convenience of driving remains.
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Electric cars you say?
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cb11acd
Part of things
Posts: 132
Club RR Member Number: 122
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Gryphon Our power sockets are standardised, doesnt stop american products being adapted. Our cars are RHD, doesn't stop other car manufacturers making cars for us. Simply put, there's money in it, so it can be made to work. Also, given its a mandatory thing that folks will HAVE to buy in 15 years, you have a target market. I just really hope they put the thought into it properly, and TBH I hope the convenience of driving remains. I am not against standardisation, and for some things it works really well, USB, plugs, AA batteries. Our cars are RHD, but cars are developed first to be LHD and we usually get the short end of the stick. if there is going to be a compromise on one side or the other then they will compromise the right hand side.
The conveniance will remain. Besides, everything will be autonomous by then anyway, or is that a topic for another time?
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There was an interesting piece on our local telly news about all this ev tosh. Aprantly there are just a 1000 electric (including hybrid) vehicles registered in cornwall. Firstly , I'm amazed its that many given the lack of infrastructure and geography of the county. Secondly , and this pricked my ears up , that the national grid can draw power back at peak times from cars that are plugged in. If ev's are supplying the grid now what chance do we have of charging vast numbers of the things!!!? Think we are heading up a dimly lit blind alley.
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating '80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip '97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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cb11acd
Part of things
Posts: 132
Club RR Member Number: 122
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There was an interesting piece on our local telly news about all this ev tosh. Aprantly there are just a 1000 electric (including hybrid) vehicles registered in cornwall. Firstly , I'm amazed its that many given the lack of infrastructure and geography of the county. Secondly , and this pricked my ears up , that the national grid can draw power back at peak times from cars that are plugged in. If ev's are supplying the grid now what chance do we have of charging vast numbers of the things!!!? Think we are heading up a dimly lit blind alley. Vehicle to grid (or V2G) is still early days, and not all cars are capable. I believe only Nissan can do this (?). First, its optional and there will be an option to only supply your own home. Second there are benefits in balancing the grid etc.
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vanpeebles
Part of things
I am eastbound in pursuit of a white Lamborghini, this is not a recording.
Posts: 978
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I never knew Cornwall had electricity!
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We were discussing this in work today and a friend commented that the Mini cooper EV was good value at £24k inc govt subsidy. So as manufacturers have to produce more EV products the price will come down significantly we are told, but one assumes there will not be any Government subsidies as if you want a new car you'll have to buy EV.
Autonomous EV transport pods for all, yippee!
"Right where are the keys for my 3.2 litre Porsche Boxster, I'm off to accelerate the death of ICE cars....braaap"
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Needs a bigger hammer mate.......
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I seriously considered converting my Spaceframe Fiat 500 racer to Electric.
The owner of the track I go to a lot is really pro electric, so I know he would have worked with me with the special demands that come with EV's.
But when I compared price ( there just isn't much good used performance EV stuff out there), weight ( a very important one for a racer ), performance, and range ( this was going to be a problem. Even with a big Diesel generator on site ) it became pretty clear that a small efficient multi valve internal combustion engine is still the best and most elegant solution out there...
Electric ruled in about 1880.
Since then it has been replaced with better systems.
If we really cared about the environment we'd design streets for continuous flow ( intstead of having traffic jams, stopsigns, sleeping policeman, etc) and we'd be driving modern versions of the 1957 Lotus Elite ( small, light and efficient )
But instead we are told its in our own best interest to throw away the baby with the bathwater...
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I never knew Cornwall had electricity! Only if the hamster can be encouraged to keep running on that wheel!
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