moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815 
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Nov 25, 2019 16:36:01 GMT
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I've got this Morris OxfordI've never owned a supercharged car, so why not put a supercharger on my Morris  I'm not really into high horsepower, I'd be looking at a conservative level of boost and making the underbonnet area look cool as !! Supercharger kits are sometimes available for MGBs but at a cost of many 000's of pounds, which isn't the way I want to go. But this is what the kit looks like  An MGB Weber downdraft inlet manifold looks ripe for modifying, by ....turning the center section 90degrees, doesn't look too bad if I can find the right ali welder.  Which doesn't look too dissimilar to the bottom of this ickle supercharger  That supercharger is off of a VW 1.4 TSI which also runs a turbo I believe, It is an Eaton EZ4. The rear of the supercharger looks ideal for hanging a big SU carb off - like the kit above.  The other end looks like it should take a belt drive pretty easily.  So some of the things I've considered which I think are easy. - Physically mounting
- Throttle cable
- Blow off/boost limit valve
Less easy are - Modifying an inlet manifold to suit
- Drive belt system
- Mounting a carb on the back of the supercharger
- Getting a tune on it which allows for decent drive-ability
- Will that Eaton EZ4 work as I anticipate
Anything else I need to consider ?
Am I on the right tracks or will there be a pile of wasted junk in the scrap pile at the end of it ? |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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Nov 25, 2019 17:21:37 GMT
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Why not get a Rover T-series turbo engine complete? 180-200 bhp reliably. Get a whole car for a few £hundreds? The block is derived from the B-Series, should mate directly to your engine mounts and gearbox. Plenty of them in MGA's, MGB's and a Marina or two. Eldest put one in a Series III Land Rover with Sherpa and MGB bits. Who has that 300+ HP BRG 820 Hatchback on here?
Even a140 HP NASP T-Sereis would be a significant improvement and they should be more easily available for pennies.
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Last Edit: Nov 25, 2019 17:23:51 GMT by theoldman
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Nov 25, 2019 17:30:16 GMT
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Why not get a Rover T-series turbo engine complete? 180-200 bhp reliably. Get a whole car for a few £hundreds? The block is derived from the B-Series, should mate directly to your engine mounts and gearbox. Plenty of them in MGA's, MGB's and a Marina or two. Eldest put one in a Series III Land Rover with Sherpa and MGB bits. Who has that 300+ HP BRG 820 Hatchback on here?
Even a140 HP NASP T-Sereis would be a significant improvement and they should be more easily available for pennies.
A valid point, but I'm not sure a Morris gearbox will cope with that. An MGB gearbox needs cuts to the monocoque I believe. A new engine/gearbox will see me on a Q-plate which I don't want to happen. |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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Nov 25, 2019 17:48:07 GMT
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If you are worried about the gearbox, just fit a 140 HP NASP.
Why swap the Morris gearbox for an MGB one? The bell housing bolt patterns are the same.
Why would a 'simple' engine swap with no mods to the monocoque and loss of only a few points put it into Q-Plate territory? Especially as it's just a replacement with a later version of the same engine? Have things changed again??
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Last Edit: Nov 25, 2019 17:49:32 GMT by theoldman
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Nov 25, 2019 18:48:06 GMT
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Why not get a Rover T-series turbo engine complete? 180-200 bhp reliably. Get a whole car for a few £hundreds? The block is derived from the B-Series, should mate directly to your engine mounts and gearbox. Plenty of them in MGA's, MGB's and a Marina or two. Eldest put one in a Series III Land Rover with Sherpa and MGB bits. Who has that 300+ HP BRG 820 Hatchback on here? Even a140 HP NASP T-Sereis would be a significant improvement and they should be more easily available for pennies.
I bought a turbo T series for my B last week, picking up a complete O series engine and gearbox tomorrow which should provide most or all of the parts Ill need for the swap. I had been considering a supercharger kit but the appeal of a more modern but relevant engine swap with an ECU won, Ive developed my B series over the last 10 years and the main issue Ive had is finding people who still understand carburetors and distributor based ignition systems, alot of the supposed upgraded parts are poorly made and unreliable |
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72 MGB GT
88 Daimler Double Six
89 Rover Mini
91 Nissan Figaro
95 Lotus Esprit S4S
18 Discovery
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Nov 25, 2019 20:23:39 GMT
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The 1.4tsi blower is an Eaton M24 I think. It's very small and pumps about 400cc. If you was going to go down that route it think you would need an M42 from a Bini cooper S or simlar or you would be working it well out of its efficiency range. Maybe even a M62 would be best. I'd have to do the maths.
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Nov 25, 2019 20:30:07 GMT
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I don't see why you couldn't mount the supercharger straight onto the webber manifold with a simple adaptor plate. For the su make 2 plates, one which fits to the rear of the supercharger, one for the su and join them together using bits of steel.
Also try to brace the supercharger to the engine in as many places as possible, it needs to be really stiffly mounted to stop it resonating in the engine rpm range which will very quickly shake it's self to pieces.
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Nov 25, 2019 21:39:10 GMT
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The M24 works on the VW because it’s only a 1.4 and actually gets disconnected by 3200rpm (by which point the turbo has woken up).
M45 (Mini) is probably best for yours. M24 is too small. If you had a 948 Moggie you could get away with it, or an original Austin 7..
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Nov 25, 2019 22:06:23 GMT
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Interesting - very interesting.
I'm not going to go down the Rover T-series engine, it isn't for me. Sounds like it is a viable option for some, but I want to retain some of the old school elements of my car.
I did wonder if the the VW supercharger was too small - but the inlet/outlets looked quite workable.
There is maths for this kind of thing.....everyday is a school day.
From what I can see my 1622 B-series makes up to 68bhp with twin carbs.
I'm only looking to get 75-80 bhp to keep the engine/gearbox in one piece.
With that in mind - is the VW supercharger still too small ?
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Nov 25, 2019 22:16:08 GMT
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Fag packet maths suggests you could, suitably geared, squeeze 90bhp from it but given the B series isn’t as efficient as a modern 16V direct injection TSI VAG lump you might fall short of that. I’m assuming you’d be going with a suck-through carb - one assumes the M-series Eatons are happy with compressing an air/fuel mix? I suppose the worst is the coating comes off the rotors quick but even if only get 5 or 10k miles from one that could be a couple of years motoring?
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Last Edit: Nov 25, 2019 22:17:17 GMT by Phil H
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Nov 25, 2019 22:16:48 GMT
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If you are only looking for that kind of increase in power why not fit a 1800cc b series?
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72 MGB GT
88 Daimler Double Six
89 Rover Mini
91 Nissan Figaro
95 Lotus Esprit S4S
18 Discovery
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Nov 25, 2019 22:53:33 GMT
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If you are only looking for that kind of increase in power why not fit a 1800cc b series? Because loads of people gave done that - few if any have supercharged a 1622 engine. I've got a perverted want, to keep the original engine. I want something that could seen as period correct. See the cafe racer thread for some of my visual inspirations |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Nov 25, 2019 22:57:25 GMT
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Fag packet maths suggests you could, suitably geared, squeeze 90bhp from it but given the B series isn’t as efficient as a modern 16V direct injection TSI VAG lump you might fall short of that. I’m assuming you’d be going with a suck-through carb - one assumes the M-series Eatons are happy with compressing an air/fuel mix? I suppose the worst is the coating comes off the rotors quick but even if only get 5 or 10k miles from one that could be a couple of years motoring? I'd be happy with that - 5-10K would be many years motoring. I've seen those VW superchargers for as little as £50, so swapping it out every once in a while won't be an issue. |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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Nov 26, 2019 10:56:14 GMT
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From my research when looking for blowers for the Cortina I went with an M45 from a mini but the Mercedes ones are just as good.
The VW one has internal gearing to get it to spin up quicker but loses puff at 3500rpm as mentioned previously.
I think the manifold you've found is ideal and is similar to the cortina's one I'll try to use. You could also use HIF 44 SU carbs for a blow through setup if you have a manifold for a single car setup or a Renault 5 one which could be used with the manifold you have.
The current consideration I have to overcome is the ignition as information I have currently is limited leading me to think of a mappable system, for that layout and consideration I'd also go mapped fuelling to. which isn't the way I'd like to do it.
I think it's a great idea and very similar to what I want from the Cortina
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1966 Ford Cortina GT
2018 Ford Fiesta ST
Full time engineer, part time waffler on Youtube - see Jim_Builds
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Nov 26, 2019 11:10:09 GMT
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Forgot to mention the internal gearbox on the M24; 2:1 approx from memory. Original fit has it clutch driven off the back of the water pump IIRC.
I have a suspicion the Eatons run at around 2:1 normally, so this makes 4:1 (they run at 14,000rpm or so flat out) so need some thought with pulleys. Compressor maps are probably out there for one as you’re probably looking at a red line 5000rpm or so for the 1622 anyway?
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Nathan
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,650
Club RR Member Number: 1
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Nov 26, 2019 11:10:25 GMT
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I've got this Morris OxfordI've never owned a supercharged car, so why not put a supercharger on my Morris I'm not really into high horsepower, I'd be looking at a conservative level of boost and making the underbonnet area look cool as !! Supercharger kits are sometimes available for MGBs but at a cost of many 000's of pounds, which isn't the way I want to go. But this is what the kit looks like An MGB Weber downdraft inlet manifold looks ripe for modifying, by ....turning the center section 90degrees, doesn't look too bad if I can find the right ali welder. Which doesn't look too dissimilar to the bottom of this ickle supercharger That supercharger is off of a VW 1.4 TSI which also runs a turbo I believe, It is an Eaton EZ4. The rear of the supercharger looks ideal for hanging a big SU carb off - like the kit above. The other end looks like it should take a belt drive pretty easily. So some of the things I've considered which I think are easy. - Physically mounting
- Throttle cable
- Blow off/boost limit valve
Less easy are - Modifying an inlet manifold to suit
- Drive belt system
- Mounting a carb on the back of the supercharger
- Getting a tune on it which allows for decent drive-ability
- Will that Eaton EZ4 work as I anticipate
Anything else I need to consider ?
Am I on the right tracks or will there be a pile of wasted junk in the scrap pile at the end of it ?Built my own kit for the M65 charger for the MX5 converted MGB I run (now make the kits for MX5s so know how simple it is). If you go for the M65 which is essentially the same as the BMW Mini M45 internally, it is cheaper and also comes with the plenium so it reduces your fabrication and possible leaks. It comes with an electric bypass valve which you could easily control with a simple Ardunio (I have the code if you want it), the BMW mini ones are prone to failing so get a new bypass if you go that route. The main difference in the Merc to BMW unit is the mounting bracket, however the M65 is easier to knock up your own ;-) You'll want a NODIZ from Motorsport Electronics or a MegaJolt from the Megasquirt boys, a trigger wheel and hall sensor. That part oddly is the simple bit :-) |
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Last Edit: Nov 26, 2019 11:11:55 GMT by Nathan
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vanpeebles
Part of things
I am eastbound in pursuit of a white Lamborghini, this is not a recording.
Posts: 980
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Nov 26, 2019 13:56:41 GMT
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I've been slowly collecting parts to make a home made turbo mgb. I've got the combined single inlet and exhaust manifold from the US, and also a single intake manifold from a canal boat for comedy value.
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Nov 26, 2019 17:54:33 GMT
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www.superchargerforums.com/threads/eaton-compressor-maps.94/You can find your compressor map for the m45/m65 there. If you want to do the maths it's not too tricky. For a basic calc Your 1600cc engine will require 800cc per revolution as it's a 4 stroke. The M45 blowerd pump 45ci per revolution so that's 740cc give or take. So if you span the blower at 2 times crank speed you would get 1480cc of air give or take (there are losses and efficiencys to take into account). Thats a pressure ratio of 1.85 or about 0.85bar of boost. If the engine revs to 6000rpm you will only spin the blower to 12000max which is within limits. If you refer back to the compressor map you will see 1.85 pressure ratio puts you out of the best efficiency zone for that blower however. Aiming for a pressure ratio of closer to 1.4 Might be better. Now do it for the M62 and see what you get. You will soon see why roots blowers arnt use for big boost at least lol.
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moglite
Part of things
Posts: 815
Club RR Member Number: 144
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Nov 27, 2019 15:20:03 GMT
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....and also a single intake manifold from a canal boat for comedy value. Some great advice so far, I'm convinced enough to start collecting parts for a mock up. So downdraught Weber manifolds aren't common. But I did stumble across an eBay comedic manifold  That boating extravaganza.... an M45 from a Merc from a fellow forum member here, and a HS6 SU carb will all be winging their way to my doorstep. I've got some off-cuts of MDF and a router - no reason why I couldn't mock it up, to see what I need in the way of pulleys etc. Total expenditure so far is about £130 |
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1967 Morris Oxford Traveller
1979 Toyota LandCruiser BJ40
1993 Daimler Double Six
2007 Volvo XC70 2.4D
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scmick
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,507
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Nov 27, 2019 16:08:47 GMT
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This is a set up on a 1294cc SIMCA 1000 I ran for a while. Way back in the '80s the original owner had it done by Auto Power Services, a long gone specialist at Daventry. It used a Magnusson supercharger 'sucking' through a big SU carb. Over the 40,000 miles he ran it it ate two sets of bearings on the blower and things were getting a bit loose again by the time I took the kit off to return the engine to standard when I sold the car. It had also had the combustion chambers opened out a bit to lower the compression. Suercharger was fitted via an alloy adapter plate to a manifold intended for a twin choke downdraught Weber from a front wheel drive SIMCA/Talbot. On the rolling road it didn't produce much more power than the factory Rallye 2 model's 82 bhp from the 1294cc with a wilder cam and twin solex sidedraught carbs, but it always felt really torquey with lots of low down punch. Drove like a 2 litre, only downside being it drank fuel like a 4 litre. I've still got the kit and plan to fit it to another SIMCA 1000, same head and better cam but get a manifold made to take a 45DCOE Weber which is what the French tuners used on them back in the day. One thing we did find when we returned the engine to standard spec, the engine which was then at 80,000 miles the bores, bearings etc were in remarkably good condition, bearing out what I read in a book that Supercharging, within reason, can be kind to engines... and it had had some 'hammer' during my ownership.  My car, now sold but I've kept the supercharger kit parts for my latest SIMCA project.  This one is on a rear engine SIMCA Coupe... same basic engine but using a DCOE Weber. |
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Last Edit: Nov 27, 2019 16:12:09 GMT by scmick
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