Rob M
Posted a lot
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Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Nov 30, 2018 19:13:00 GMT
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my daily is 27yrs old. my mrs car is 7yrs old, newest motor we have ever owned. no way can we afford a new ev motor. would love to have one though, just no where to charge it at night, i'm guessing most will be in that position. cables everywhere!!!! If there was a 'I bow and salute thee' emoji on here I would use that in answer to your post. Fair play to you, running a 27 yr old car as a daily rocks! ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Nov 30, 2018 20:02:56 GMT
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my daily is 27yrs old. my mrs car is 7yrs old, newest motor we have ever owned. no way can we afford a new ev motor. would love to have one though, just no where to charge it at night, i'm guessing most will be in that position. cables everywhere!!!! If there was a 'I bow and salute thee' emoji on here I would use that in answer to your post. Fair play to you, running a 27 yr old car as a daily rocks! ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) i just see it as normal, neighbours think i've a screw loose.
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Both my and my wife's daily were first registered in 1990. Hers has 429,800 km on it. The odo in mine stopped working at 295,943 in January so would be around 315,000 by now at a guess. I wouldn't buy a new car even if I could afford it. The problem I see with current electrics is the longevity, or lack of it, of the batteries, and the lack of recycling facilities for the spent batteries.
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I'm not against new technology but when its sold as a green save the planet alternative thats what gets up my nose! where do the raw materials come from to make these things and what devastation is caused getting the raw materials, where is all the electric going to come from to charge the things? most city streets struggle with parking can you imagine the chaos with charging leads festooned everywhere!! there will be deaths!
Its going to be a long time before us low earners will be able to afford one and in the mean time we will carry on subsidising those that can easily afford to buy/run one!
That's my rant over I'm off to chop wood to keep warm!
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,386
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I might add that I ahve owned a 2015 VW E-golf and driven it 27.000km before I sold it on. It was their first genereation with a 120 miles range. Never did I run out of electricity, never did I not have enough charge to do my local runs. I charged it from a 16 amp wall socket and 20m extension cord for 3 years withouf issues. What amazed me was also the low running costs. I used it as a normal car not saving electricity in any way. Right hand lane on motorways doing 60mph (50mph zone). On average for the 27000km I used 2kW pr 10km so in total I used 5400kWs. With a cost of 10pence pr kW that makes the total cost for 'fuel' £540 over 3 years. With a Diesel golf I would have spent more than twice that on diesel. In addition the service cost were low with very few moving parts needing attention. Main service was £250. A diesel golf would be £6-800 per servie cåhere in Norway. Road tax was just 10% of petrol and diesel cars and insurance was cheap. Sold it due to need ing funds for other things, but will have a EV as our main car in the future for sure
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Last Edit: Dec 1, 2018 17:56:00 GMT by sonus
Current 1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype 2004 TVR T350C 2017 BMW 340i
Previous BMW 325d E91LCI - sold Alfa Romeo GTV - sold Citroen AX GT - at the breakers Ford Puma 1.7 - sold Volvo V50 2.0d - sold MGB GT - wrecked by fire MG ZT 1.8T - sold VW E-golf Electric - sold Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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kenb
Part of things
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Posts: 604
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Well I have no doubt our wonderful Government will have a scheme either to hike up the cost of electricity, or pay per mile to claw back what they will lose on current VED. Either way they will screw us, motoring will be just as expensive as its always been if not more so, and no longer the pleasure it was once in our little overcrowded island.
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sb
Part of things
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Posts: 725
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I think that, like it or not, electric vehicles are what most of the automotive industry is concentrating on. Trouble is, they have a "Green" Tag which makes them much more desirable, yet the power has to come from somewhere, and wind and solar power is only a tiny part of where the electricity comes from. Mostly it's gas, nuclear and to a lesser extent, coal, none of which are particularly kind to the environment. Whatever the alternative to fossil fuels, there will be a knock on effect in a different part of the world. Hydrogen is plentiful, but turning it into a fuel that can be used is very expensive. Battery technology is coming on and quickly, because it's what the big companies want to do. Is it really that more dangerous than IC engines? Only because we aren't used to it. In ten years it'll be old hat and guys like us may well be starting to tune them. As for the electric market, some things look exciting, and have potential. It won't be long before tuners start modifying (safely) but I'm not entirely sure that increasing speed would be necessary, especially in this case... www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/rivian-r1t-new-electric-truck-will-do-0-60mph-30s?fbclid=IwAR3ZaK-h2AhO6PtCfcgP_dY1fqvmm2r_joQ4x-99qMlXn6RZB-LOoDmib5USorry for digging up an old comment... Petrol doesnt come out of the ground, a lot of energy is spent refining petrol, likely more than is required to straight produce power for a battery. The numbers don't lie and electric cars are always better for the environment over any ICE. It just all depends on how long based on the countries renewable power generation which can alter the offset from 1-2 years up to 15+ for high capacity electric only cars.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,986
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Well I have no doubt our wonderful Government will have a scheme either to hike up the cost of electricity, or pay per mile to claw back what they will lose on current VED. Either way they will screw us, motoring will be just as expensive as its always been if not more so, and no longer the pleasure it was once in our little overcrowded island. Where do you think that money is going? Theresa May's pockets? It may sound controversial on a car forum, but I think motoring is actually way too cheap if you take the damage it does into consideration (flying even more so).
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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Rob M
Posted a lot
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Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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I think that, like it or not, electric vehicles are what most of the automotive industry is concentrating on. Trouble is, they have a "Green" Tag which makes them much more desirable, yet the power has to come from somewhere, and wind and solar power is only a tiny part of where the electricity comes from. Mostly it's gas, nuclear and to a lesser extent, coal, none of which are particularly kind to the environment. Whatever the alternative to fossil fuels, there will be a knock on effect in a different part of the world. Hydrogen is plentiful, but turning it into a fuel that can be used is very expensive. Battery technology is coming on and quickly, because it's what the big companies want to do. Is it really that more dangerous than IC engines? Only because we aren't used to it. In ten years it'll be old hat and guys like us may well be starting to tune them. As for the electric market, some things look exciting, and have potential. It won't be long before tuners start modifying (safely) but I'm not entirely sure that increasing speed would be necessary, especially in this case... www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/rivian-r1t-new-electric-truck-will-do-0-60mph-30s?fbclid=IwAR3ZaK-h2AhO6PtCfcgP_dY1fqvmm2r_joQ4x-99qMlXn6RZB-LOoDmib5USorry for digging up an old comment... Petrol doesnt come out of the ground, a lot of energy is spent refining petrol, likely more than is required to straight produce power for a battery. The numbers don't lie and electric cars are always better for the environment over any ICE. It just all depends on how long based on the countries renewable power generation which can alter the offset from 1-2 years up to 15+ for high capacity electric only cars. Mining for the raw materials to make batteries is no easier or environmentally friendly than drilling for oil and refining it for petroleum. As it currently stands, there has been large scale stockpiling of the component materials to make batteries and there are genuine fears as to the long term ability to supply the demand for them. Oil may be running out but we don't even have a world full of electric vehicles and people are already concerned about the continued supply of the vital components that create the power for them. Moreover, in order to go green you are going to have to go dirty to get it, mining is dangerous, time consuming and inherently 'dirty' It's all a bit like people expressing their desire to be carbon neutral while wearing clothing made in Bangladeshi sweat shops by people paid buttons and living in abject poverty. I am happy to run with the Electric car is better for the planet than an ICE powered one but lets not get carried away with the idea that the whole shebang is going to be a fully green experience. Some countries are going to get shat on for their resources, people will die mining for it because there will be no health and safety and the colossal sums of money that will change hands will not bring those workers or their families out of poverty, let alone their countries. Mind you, nobody will give a sh*t because their Kona will have a 300 mile range and cost bog all to run. www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/aug/24/nickel-mining-hidden-environmental-cost-electric-cars-batteries
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kenb
Part of things
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Posts: 604
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Well I have no doubt our wonderful Government will have a scheme either to hike up the cost of electricity, or pay per mile to claw back what they will lose on current VED. Either way they will screw us, motoring will be just as expensive as its always been if not more so, and no longer the pleasure it was once in our little overcrowded island. Where do you think that money is going? Theresa May's pockets? It may sound controversial on a car forum, but I think motoring is actually way too cheap if you take the damage it does into consideration (flying even more so). Without going political, I have a big idea where the VED money is going and most of that from what DVLA raise too, but it sure isn't going where it should be ie investing in public transport, if they want us to stop driving cars. Motoring may be cheap to those in high wage areas, but it sure isn't in low paid parts of the country like Lincs where cars are unfortunately for the most part the only way to get about. Another point we have to pay some of the highest petrol prices, when the stuff is refined literally just over the north of the county border.
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sb
Part of things
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Posts: 725
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Sorry for digging up an old comment... Petrol doesnt come out of the ground, a lot of energy is spent refining petrol, likely more than is required to straight produce power for a battery. The numbers don't lie and electric cars are always better for the environment over any ICE. It just all depends on how long based on the countries renewable power generation which can alter the offset from 1-2 years up to 15+ for high capacity electric only cars. Mining for the raw materials to make batteries is no easier or environmentally friendly than drilling for oil and refining it for petroleum. As it currently stands, there has been large scale stockpiling of the component materials to make batteries and there are genuine fears as to the long term ability to supply the demand for them. Oil may be running out but we don't even have a world full of electric vehicles and people are already concerned about the continued supply of the vital components that create the power for them. Moreover, in order to go green you are going to have to go dirty to get it, mining is dangerous, time consuming and inherently 'dirty' It's all a bit like people expressing their desire to be carbon neutral while wearing clothing made in Bangladeshi sweat shops by people paid buttons and living in abject poverty. I am happy to run with the Electric car is better for the planet than an ICE powered one but lets not get carried away with the idea that the whole shebang is going to be a fully green experience. Some countries are going to get shat on for their resources, people will die mining for it because there will be no health and safety and the colossal sums of money that will change hands will not bring those workers or their families out of poverty, let alone their countries. Mind you, nobody will give a sh*t because their Kona will have a 300 mile range and cost bog all to run. www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/aug/24/nickel-mining-hidden-environmental-cost-electric-cars-batteriesYes Lithium is a problem, but oil has been great for PR?! Oh no wait western nations destabilised half a continent chasing it and caused untold terror and devastation on the way and in the wake... I don't think production of electric cars is a greener process but it is greener in the long term and can offset itself with ease. The ICE simply cannot it only gets worse.
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EV will not be the future of motoring unless they somehow overcome the massive design flaw of having to plug it in for long periods of time to charge it, and let's be honest, for the majority of the population it is very much a design flaw. For people with a driveway it's fine, but most people haven't got one. At best they park their cars on the road outside their house and in this compensation claim age we live in today there is no way people would be allowed to run cables across public foot paths to charge their cars over night. Then there are the people who live in streets where it's next to impossible to get a spot near your own house and sometimes having to park in the next street. People living in flats, people who park their cars in lock ups away from the their house, the list goes on.
We keep being told that public transport will improve to help break our dependence on cars, but talk is cheap and I'm still yet to see any improvement in that, never mind improvement so big that it kills the need for personal transport.
I'm happy to accept that we do need to find an alternative to ICE cars, but to do that they need to come up with something that the majority of the population can switch to. Hydrogen seems a much more realistic alternative in regards to people being able to use them like they currently do ICE.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,986
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the massive design flaw of having to plug it in for long periods of time to charge it A design flaw is something that could have been prevented had the developer done their job, wired EV charging is just a step in a development process (remember phones being corded for about a century?). Wireless/ inductive charging is certainly not impossible, making life even more convenient and safe than when having to fill up a car with fossil fuel. Also, give hydrogen infrastructure some thought; if it would have been easy to roll out, it would have been done already. That's not to say it's impossible, but either hydrogen or wireless electric charging on a large scale will take time (and a lot of money) to be developed and implemented. Just be patient.
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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Big fan of EV here, I've got 4 (ok only a couple of them work) i drive an electric van 99% of the time. I love not giving money to the oil-spilling likes of BP , Shell, Exxon. I charge at night when the grid isn't doing much and there is often surplus wind. I also have my own PV panels which work great in the summer.
I like the instant power, the smoothness and relaxing experience of driving EV, especially in traffic. Having zero road tax or servicing, and instant heat is also a bonus.
My next old car build is going to be an EV conversion. Not sure what yet.
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Last Edit: Dec 2, 2018 13:28:51 GMT by datman
69 Plymouth Fury Convertible 75 Range Rover 2 door 82 Range Rover 4 door 84 Range Rover 4 door 78 Datsun 120Y 2 door 78 Datsun 120Y Coupe 78 Datsun 620 Pickup 81 Datsun Urvan E23 86 Datsun Vanette van 98 Electric Citroen Berlingo 00 Electric Peugeot Partner 02 Electric Citroen Berlingo 76 Honda C50 04 Berlingo Multispace petrol 07 Land Rover 130 15 Nissan E-NV200 15 Fiat Ducato
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BTW one of my older EVs (sold it last year) was a 2001 Berlingo, the batteries were original and still very good. YOu can't keep using the same tank of diesel for 17 years, you can't recharge that. You have to drill, ship, refine, transport that stuff every time you run out. Afer all that it ends up in the air and in our lungs.
I love that my car fills itself up while I sleep, from a normal household plug, (green supplier) and is ready to go in the morning, and I don't' have to go to a garage to fill up.
Oh and costing under 2 quid for a fillup is nice too. And some public chargers are totally free like the one at my local Tescos.
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69 Plymouth Fury Convertible 75 Range Rover 2 door 82 Range Rover 4 door 84 Range Rover 4 door 78 Datsun 120Y 2 door 78 Datsun 120Y Coupe 78 Datsun 620 Pickup 81 Datsun Urvan E23 86 Datsun Vanette van 98 Electric Citroen Berlingo 00 Electric Peugeot Partner 02 Electric Citroen Berlingo 76 Honda C50 04 Berlingo Multispace petrol 07 Land Rover 130 15 Nissan E-NV200 15 Fiat Ducato
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,742
Club RR Member Number: 39
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There is a simple fact - there will be no sole IC engine cars sold in the UK within 20 years. Many manufacturers will have removed them from their ranges before this date due to falling demand. Whether pure EV or Hybrid EV - this change IS happening. Hydrogen - well, the downside with that one is before you can switch from a Carbon based to a Hydrogen based economic system you need to have the ability to produce an excess of very very cheap electricity. Only then does it become economically viable to produce Hydrogen. You cant mine or drill for Hydrogen - you have to manufacture it which takes power. You could probably look up the required ratio of KW in to kW out for it's production if so inclined. Here done it for you. "producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg or about 40 kWh/kg) requires 50–55 kWh of electricity" Hmmm - a bit like using up £50 of labour to produce £40 of goods when measured on the energy content - not the greatest investment model - however for transportation it's much worse because EV is very efficient - IC is not so at point of use you are using £50 of labour to actualise just £10 of goods. really a bad business model - now with free labour - anything is possible - and proven ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) It is also possible in the future that the gas production infrastructure could be augmented by Hydrogen production by using excess (very very cheap) renewable electricity production if there is no other storage method available. Anyway - EV is where it's going. Enjoy IC whilst you still can.
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the massive design flaw of having to plug it in for long periods of time to charge it A design flaw is something that could have been prevented had the developer done their job, wired EV charging is just a step in a development process (remember phones being corded for about a century?). Wireless/ inductive charging is certainly not impossible, making life even more convenient and safe than when having to fill up a car with fossil fuel. Also, give hydrogen infrastructure some thought; if it would have been easy to roll out, it would have been done already. That's not to say it's impossible, but either hydrogen or wireless electric charging on a large scale will take time (and a lot of money) to be developed and implemented. Just be patient.
Design flaw was about the only way I could think of to describe it after just waking up on a Sunday morning. Whether it's a design flaw or just a flaw, it doesn't change the fact that it makes EV cars unusable for the majority of people. Wireless/inductive charging would have little effect on EV in the real world. You'd still need to park your car in some sort of docking bay that would be connected to your house electric supply. Fine for people with driveways, useless for anyone that parks on the road, in a lock up, in a car park etc. Hydrogen refuelling stations are already out there. In some parts of the world you can buy it from petrol stations just as easily as petrol or diesel. In the real world setting up the infrastructure for selling hydrogen would be easier and cheaper than setting it up for everyone to be able to switch to EV. No need for any sort of charging or docking stations, it would be accessible to everyone, not just people with driveways. The infrastructure is already in place in the form of petrol stations. The recent breakthrough in Australia for transporting it is being hailed as the next big step to making it a viable fuel source for vehicles. If hydrogen cars become mainstream, EV's will die a death just like betamax.
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Last Edit: Dec 2, 2018 13:32:34 GMT by roccoguy
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Great thread! I like the idea of hydrogen too, Its amazing that you or i (funds permitting) can go out right now and buy a Toyota or Honda hydrogen car. They are basically EVs, (with a small battery which constantly gets filled up by the fuel cell) so advances in EV efficiency elso help the tech on FCVs . Biggest use for hydrogen would be on things like artics, and aeroplanes.
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69 Plymouth Fury Convertible 75 Range Rover 2 door 82 Range Rover 4 door 84 Range Rover 4 door 78 Datsun 120Y 2 door 78 Datsun 120Y Coupe 78 Datsun 620 Pickup 81 Datsun Urvan E23 86 Datsun Vanette van 98 Electric Citroen Berlingo 00 Electric Peugeot Partner 02 Electric Citroen Berlingo 76 Honda C50 04 Berlingo Multispace petrol 07 Land Rover 130 15 Nissan E-NV200 15 Fiat Ducato
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,986
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You'd still need to park your car in some sort of docking bay that would be connected to your house electric supply. Who says you need to park a car to charge it? Think of induction charging on motorways; cars wouldn't even need that many batteries as they could take the direct demand directly from the road. They would only need storage for when they drive on smaller roads or in cities, where induction charging on private drives and public car parks could supplement. That same motorway can also be used to generate electricity at the same time as supplying it. Maybe hard to imagine at the moment, perhaps reality in a decade or two.
For the nearby future: why would you need to charge a car from your house supply? Many work and public car parks already have bays with chargers for electric vehicles, I don't see why this could not be rolled out on a bigger scale when demand rises. Same for on-street parking bays.
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Last Edit: Dec 2, 2018 14:47:43 GMT by melle
www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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When i start thinking about electric power my brain cant get me past and hydrogen=water=steam. Not helpful.
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