foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,212
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Well I'm glad ppl are contributing to this thread. It's obviously a big subject. Just to confuse matters I'm going to ask if anyone knows what thinners I can use in the 1K acrylics I have left (several tins, different colours). I've been told basecoat thinners are suitable for 1K acrylic. Bought some and noticed under the label the tin said 'slow thinners'. Sometimes wonder if you're just getting sold the same thing in different tins. Like Glasurit seem to do about 20 different thinner & reducers. Seems like you need a different one for each product they sell.
When I bought the 1K acrylics the lady at Metalflake UK said 'we've no thinners left so you'll need to get another TPA type'.
It's not a term you hear very often but there was a period where cars were painted with TPA. Thermo Plastic Acrylic. I guess that's what 1K acrylic lacquer was.
Looking at my Metalflake Safety Data Sheet it advises that the Clear Acrylic Lacquer, Acrylic Thinner & Candy Apple all had Toulene Methyl Ethyl Ketone in them.
They did two 2K lacquers also: Crysta-Cryl had Toulene VMP Naptha Butyl Acetate and Polygloss had Toulene Methyl Ethyl Ketone Butyl Acetate. They both used the same catalyst which had Xylene Polyisocyanate.
I'm no chemist but am curious to see if I buy some 2K thinners they contain Toulene Methyl Ethyl Ketone. I understand the amount of each component varies from one thinner to another but surely if thay have tha same basic make-up they won't ruin the paint.
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Last Edit: Sept 21, 2017 22:31:01 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Well I'm glad ppl are contributing to this thread. It's obviously a big subject. Just to confuse matters I'm going to ask if anyone knows what thinners I can use in the 1K acrylics I have left (several tins, different colours). I've been told basecoat thinners are suitable for 1K acrylic. Bought some and noticed under the label the tin said 'slow thinners'. Sometimes wonder if you're just getting sold the same thing in different tins. Like Glasurit seem to do about 20 different thinner & reducers. Seems like you need a different one for each product they sell. When I bought them the lady at Metalflake UK said 'we've no thinners left so you'll need to get another TPA type'. It's not a term you hear very often but there was a period where cars were painted with TPS. Thermo Plastic Acrylic. I guess that's what 1K acrylic lacquer was. Looking at my Metalflake Safety Data Sheet it advises that the Clear Acrylic Lacquer, Acrylic Thinner & Candy Apple all had Toulene Methyl Ethyl Ketone in them. They did two 2K lacquers also: Crysta-Cryl had Toulene VMP Naptha Butyl Acetate and Polygloss had Toulene Methyl Ethyl Ketone Butyl Acetate. They both used the same catalyst which had Xylene Polyisocyanate. I'm no chemist but am curious to see if I but some 2K thinners they contain Toulene Methyl Ethyl Ketone. I understand the amount of each component varies from one thinner to another but surely if thay have tha same basic make-up they won't ruin the paint. You could always experiment on a scrap panel and see what the outcome is - from my own experience I would not bother - I attempted on several occasions to use up a odd half a tin of leftover thinners / activator with another product only for it look great when applied then look like a pigs ear 24 hours later. I agree there is no end of products changes - fast, medium & slow thinners / activators - then you can obtain accelerators etc - they do change the product every few years - manufactures / suppliers often argue that due to advancements in technology it's now a better product whilst this may be the case on some occasions I cannot be the only one that thinks it's the same product in a new shape / rebranded tin but the cost of it has risen 20%. Several years ago I undertook a body restoration & bare metal repaint on a 1950's sports car in cellulose - it looked fantastic and went on to win several awards - the paint supplied by the owner was the paint that came with the car when he first purchased it - 35 years prior - I told him that there was no way that I could guarantee the quality of the paint finish with a product that had stood in a tin for the last 30 odd years - he insisted - I tried one panel and it looked good - all my preparation was extensive and very through as always - within the last year said paint finish which is now seven years old has crazed & cracked - I have repolished the car but in reality the car needs repainting - this is early failure of the paint finish - I would normally expect to get 20 - 40 years out of a well looked after quality automotive paint finish - I have seen this occur before but never to this extent - every panel is affected and the only thing I can (and several other industry experts) is the age of the paint at the time of use vs thinners that were new supply - hence a 35 year product gap - still I have to look on the bright side - I get the car to paint again! |
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Last Edit: Mar 2, 2017 7:37:58 GMT by Deleted
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,322
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Your begining to sound like a broken record now mate. I just find it ironic you moan about 'Hearsay' and then come out with a load of false statements. I'm not really advising people either way on the mask issue just giving them some actual facts.
If anything i'm advising people to understand their situation and understand their own health and safety. That way they can do their own personal risk assessment and work safely while getting the job done.
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Iain
Part of things
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slater where can we read up on the situation ourselves to understand the health risks?
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Your begining to sound like a broken record now mate. I just find it ironic you moan about 'Hearsay' and then come out with a load of false statements. I'm not really advising people either way on the mask issue just giving them some actual facts. If anything i'm advising people to understand their situation and understand their own health and safety. That way they can do their own personal risk assessment and work safely while getting the job done. I am going to respond once to you and once only with some real facts: You are at much risk using 2K paint without the correct recommended personal protective equipment once as what you are using it times over I cannot source one single paint manufactures data sheet that states 'It's ok you don't need to take all the precautions we have just informed you about in this data sheet if you are just using the product in question once every five years or so in your home workshop that will not have a method of extracting & exchanging the total air volume held within your workshop twice every 60 seconds and you only have a non positive fed mask. This is the HSE information on the use of isocyanates in automotive painting: www.hse.gov.uk/asthma/isocyanates.htm www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/bodyshop/isocyanates.htmwww.hsl.gov.uk/resources/case-studies/isocyanates-in-motor-vehicle-repair--reducing-exposure-through-trainingUnsure in what capacity or qualification that you respond / advise - I guess it's from products you have used on occasions and hence gained your experience - I could be wrong and I apologise if so I don't mind declaring my hand - I have been involved within the automotive refinishing trade on & off for some 40 years - very much time served, qualified too, most of my work is within the older vehicle / classic market so there has been a few awards over the years to add to all that experience - I don't consider myself arrogant but I do know my trade along with the products utilised very well and has you may have now concluded I am also very much aware of the risk factors involved Finally I am not your 'Mate' - and I doubt that I ever will be |
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Last Edit: Mar 2, 2017 23:12:05 GMT by Deleted
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Apologies -I promised to post up some images of the kit I use a few days ago Compressor  3 stage 23 cfm pump driven by a 3 phase 5.5 hp motor on a 270 litre tank  I am only on a single phase supply so the power has be inverted for the motor - which is housed in the grey control box  3 stage filter / coalescer providing breathing quality air  Air fed mask / belt mounted filter / regulator - isocyanates are also absorbed through the skin so the wearing of disposable painters overalls & gloves is highly recommended  Unfortunately none of it is a cheap investment |
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no pun intended, but i feel like this post should be stickied. the forum, or any forums seem to be lacking in top quality painting advice, myth busting.
p.s @grumpynorthener where do 1k synthetic enamels fall into this discussion? as i understand it they have lacquer in the paint already
whilst i take the "old landrover" comment on the chin, i've had excellent results with it DIY
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no pun intended, but i feel like this post should be stickied. the forum, or any forums seem to be lacking in top quality painting advice, myth busting. p.s @grumpynorthener where do 1k synthetic enamels fall into this discussion? as i understand it they have lacquer in the paint already whilst i take the "old landrover" comment on the chin, i've had excellent results with it DIY 1K / single pack synthetics are fine - air cured and at least you can get thinners for the paint nowday's - its pretty low tech and easy to apply and can produce some great results with the most basic / budget kit - decades ago you had to heat the paint to get it thin enough to spray (paint tin in a bucket part filled with boiling water initially but then we got all fancy and purchased paint heating kettles for the job) A good quality face mask (branded product - something like 3M will be fine) - the paint is ok but takes an age to dry so tends to attract every grain of dust / midge / bug etc - it's very good for basic paint solid colour jobs / commercials / trailers / agricultural or a car that does not require a high quality paint job but forget fancy finishes / metallic's etc Let me know if you need any further info |
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,212
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i feel like this post should be stickied. the forum, or any forums seem to be lacking in top quality painting advice, myth busting. p.s @grumpynorthener where do 1k synthetic enamels fall into this discussion? as i understand it they have lacquer in the paint already whilst i take the "old landrover" comment on the chin, i've had excellent results with it DIY Cheers. I'm taking credit for starting it lol. First time I've really had any input after years of asking questions on this. Here's a thread I started recently Glasurit clearcoats that got zero responses. Maybe the comedy/Facejacker tag put folks off  Oh and my opinion on 1K synthetic enamels is that it's safe lol.  Also you do get good results with it especially when sprayed/. I did some motorcycle number-plates (black) with it over 20 years ago and they're still shiny. The thing I've never liked about it is the name. I see it as the oldest type of paint but the name sounds modern which has always thrown me. It should be called Vintage Enamel or something  |
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Last Edit: Mar 2, 2017 23:42:59 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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@grumpynorthener not to toot the trumpet, but i did this wing with HMG 1k synthetic, applied with microfibre roller, outdoors. yes there was a day in between each coat, and there were lots of them days, and lots of rectifying, and white is fairly forgiving, but you know, i took that comment as a challenge, i'm only sad that it is an old land rover lol  |
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Last Edit: Mar 2, 2017 23:48:36 GMT by darrenh
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@grumpynorthener not to toot the trumpet, but i did this wing with HMG 1k synthetic, applied with microfibre roller, outdoors. yes there was a day in between each coat, and there were lots of them days, and lots of rectifying, and white is fairly forgiving, but you know, i took that comment as a challenge, i'm only sad that it is an old land rover lol 10/ 10 for effort from me  |
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still saving up for a trailer  |
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Given what comes out of the compressor when you drain it breathing the air has never appealed to me (i know with right filters it is supposed to be fine) instead I have a high volume pump (old vacuum cleaner) blowing into 1" conduit which feeds a face mark, I can spray celly in a enclosed garage and not even smell it. Only real issue is you have 2 pipes to drag around.
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,212
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Think I may have a solution for Joe Bloggs to do Candy/Kandy....
You can get a Candy concentrate. You apparently mix it with thinners then put it in the clear of your choice. There's plenty of 1K clear around (don't know why it's always RFU. Why can't they sell it neat and supply thinners separate?).
Fair enough it won't be as good as 2K but when 60s & 70s motorcycles came out the factory they weren't in 2k and even 40 years later the original paint shines up fantastically.
Having said that the paint they used back then (whatever it was) was probably better than the 1K acrylic they sell nowadays.
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Unofficially i was told if you add 2k activator/ hardener to synthetic it goes off quickly as it's the same paint family.
Do a test on a small quantity first though.
Spraying hot you can get a lovely finish with synthetic as long as you can wait long enough for it to dry then another week for it to harden.
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Unofficially i was told if you add 2k activator/ hardener to synthetic it goes off quickly as it's the same paint family. Do a test on a small quantity first though. Spraying hot you can get a lovely finish with synthetic as long as you can wait long enough for it to dry then another week for it to harden. You could but in doing so have converted a single pack paint to a 2 pack paint - the isocyanates are held within the hardener / activator Going back many years ago most commercial vehicles were delivered new in primer so that the customer could then have the vehicle painted in their own livery - all this work was undertaken with single pack synthetic paint heated to the point that it was thin enough to spray - it stuck to everything - we had to apply Vaseline to our faces to prevent the paint from sticking to the skin  |
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Last Edit: Mar 4, 2017 21:56:12 GMT by Deleted
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,212
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I've found a UK seller who sells 1K acrylic. RFU unfortunately but in the information section they specify which thinner is compatible with it and interestingly it's the same one as they recommend for their cellulose range. Also they call their air-dry acrylic TPA, as I mentioned above. The company is called Oval and I really like their website but the bizarre thing is you can't find their full paint range until you select a colour. Any colour from their BMC/Leyland/Ford range then it offers you the different paint systems. Most expensive is CV Polyurethane, then 1K Acrylic, then 2K, then Cellulose and finally Coachpaint (synthetic enamel) They also do a huge range of metallic/pearl Polyester-Basecoat paint but worryingly it's hidden in the guitar-refinishing section. This is a bit strange as it's my understanding that Polyester-Basecoat is what is used in (all ?) modern automotive 2K clear over base paint-jobs. In the listings for the guitar-paint it states the polyester 'Mirrorbase' is quick drying for car and commercials so it looks good scroll down for Mirrorbase detailsFor some reason you need to go thru the 'colour standrds' link to get to the full range of pearlescent/metallic basecoat paints |
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Last Edit: Mar 5, 2017 11:19:42 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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so i'm assuming this is an airborne particle issue with 2k? i.e if you were brushing, rollering (example a chassis or other non cosmetic surface) its "safe" for DIY ?
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,212
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I think it's more a 'being in same room as isocyanates' issue. So roller/brush application might still be a problem. I'm actually thinking along the lines of doing it outside with 2K. I'm only painting motorcycle parts: Small area, short time, good mask, still day and I don't value my life much anyway  |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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