foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,212
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(thread originally called what do we call Urethane in the UK?)
2K. Acrylic Enamel. Urethane Enamel. Only the clear stage of a 2K paintjob has isocyantes in it, unless it's a solid 1-stage colour.
polyester basecoat uses same thinners as 2K paint/lacquer. you can put basecoat thinners in old 1K acrylic or TPA as it was once known.
Am I confused?
It all seems a bit complicated.
How does Joe Bloggs do a candy paint job on his old motorbikes without having to invest in another compressor to use an air-fed mask?
Help
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Last Edit: Apr 29, 2023 8:55:19 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Feb 28, 2017 19:30:08 GMT |
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Joe blogs probably doesn't bother with a mask and sprays anyway...
Choices here are
Cellulose
Synthetic
2 pack
Water based
There's also 1k but I'm not sure if that's something else by another name
Air fed masks and a belt aren't expensive really. You can I believe also buy disposable filter masks suitable for 2k
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,212
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Feb 28, 2017 21:40:01 GMT |
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I read a big thread recently on 2K masks and most ppl seemed to think they weren't adequate. Interestingly the water-based paints (or their hardeners) supposedly have isocyantes in them too.
So Joe Blogs, if he's worried about isocyanates and only has one air compressor, is limited to cellulose and synthetic.
Synthetic is out unless you're painting a tractor or Land Rover which kinda leaves cellulose. And they don't do candy colours in that.
Wish someone would start selling 1K acrylic again. Metalflake (the company) did a great range of Candy Apple lacquers
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Feb 28, 2017 22:29:03 GMT |
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all my supplters only sell water based basecoats now, a new law came in 20th or feb in case it affects anyone here and they didn't know about it ( i didn't till today) .
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R.I.P photobucket
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Feb 28, 2017 22:54:10 GMT |
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Ok guys - Firstly and please believe me otherwise you could go and kill yourselves - there is NO non air fed mask on the market that will protect your lungs from the ingression of 2K / 2 pack paints - you MUST have the right air fed mask for these paints - I apply automotive paint for a living - don't go listening to hearsay or what a mate of mate can achieve with 2 pack paint in his lock up whilst wearing a paper dust mask.
Water based paints are base coat only and are purely water based - no hardeners etc - they need to have a clear lacquer applied over them which in the norm is a 2 pack - there is a single pack / 1K lacquer available - its difficult to apply - tends to age / yellow at an early stage and is nowhere near as good as the 2K product
Further to this there is a vast range of colours available in a 2k / 2 pack paint - but you still require an air fed mask
Base coats are also available as solvent based but still require a clear coat / lacquer
Cellulose is your best route but as already stated does not cater for the candy type finishes - I would do a bit of online research on single pack / 1K automotive lacquers - don't buy at the cheap end of the market you will only get poor results - purchase top quality / brand leading - I don't hold too much technical info on the single pack products has I use 2 pack which offers far superior drying times / flexibility for the commercial user - but once you have found something that you think is suitable - post it here and I will read through the data / check it out for you
If you need any further help - just ask and I will advise to the best of my ability - Chris
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Feb 28, 2017 23:00:43 GMT |
all my supplters only sell water based basecoats now, a new law came in 20th or feb in case it affects anyone here and they didn't know about it ( i didn't till today) . I don't know if its anything new, i've been asked to sign a waiver before stating the colour matched celly i've just purchased is for industrial use, obviously I want my garden gates colour coded to my van  I read a big thread recently on 2K masks and most ppl seemed to think they weren't adequate. Interestingly the water-based paints (or their hardeners) supposedly have isocyantes in them too. So Joe Blogs, if he's worried about isocyanates and only has one air compressor, is limited to cellulose and synthetic. You just use a splitter on your airline (usually clipped to a belt) to fed the mask and your gun, no need for a seperate compressor |
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Last Edit: Feb 28, 2017 23:02:48 GMT by dodgerover
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Feb 28, 2017 23:27:43 GMT |
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Guys you really are listing to a load of hearsay - don't expect to be that well after breathing straight / neat compressed air via a split feed - you need a 3 stage filter / coalescer to ensure that the air that you breath is of a suitable breathable quality - You also need a decent size compressor with at least 18CFM delivery / 200 litre tank minimum - I run a 23CFM / 270 litre tank compressor - I am painting 2K polyester tomorrow so once I am ready I will take some pics of my set up and post them for you
Cellulose paints should be available from any supplier that stocks them (not all automotive refinishing suppliers do) but they supply on the basis that the cellulose paint is use on either an historic vehicle or for industrial use - some suppliers request proof of vehicle age / ownership via a V5 - but no doubt about it is getting more difficult to source - finding a supplier that has retained cellulose matching reference & mixing formula for older vehicles is another uphill battle
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Last Edit: Feb 28, 2017 23:34:38 GMT by Deleted
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,212
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I think grumpynorthener is making sense here. However I've been looking for years for a 1K product other than cellulose and can't find one. A couple of years back there were some USA sellers on Ebay still doing acrylic lacquer but they couldn't ship to UK anyway.
Basically it seems that the only decent clear is 2K and no matter if you're using a non-isocyanate base (waterbase, celly, 1K acrylic) you have to find some way of safely spraying the clear.
If you are doing a Candy it's like a coloured clear and only comes in Urethane - which is 2K.
If you are doing a solid colour (1 stage?) the modern ones use a hardener so are 2K isocyanate like the clears.
And re two compressors: I don't think there are many single-phase machines that will keep up with a spray gun and a mask so you'd need a big 3-phase one which again takes it away from Joe Bloggs. I have a decent single phase one which can supply the spray gun fine but would like one sat outside in fresh air to feed the mask. Not much point having your mask's air supply coming from the area you are spraying in
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Last Edit: Mar 1, 2017 1:48:09 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Fungus
Part of things
Posts: 960
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I think grumpynorthener is making sense here. However I've been looking for years for a 1K product other than cellulose and can't find one. A couple of years back there were some USA sellers on Ebay still doing acrylic lacquer but they couldn't ship to UK anyway. Basically it seems that the only decent clear is 2K and no matter if you're using a non-isocyanate base (waterbase, celly, 1K acrylic) you have to find some way of safely spraying the clear. If you are doing a Candy it's like a coloured clear and only comes in Urethane - which is 2K. If you are doing a solid colour (1 stage?) the modern ones use a hardener so are 2K isocyanate like the clears. And re two compressors: I don't think there are many single-phase machines that will keep up with a spray gun and a mask so you'd need a big 3-phase one which again takes it away from Joe Bloggs. I have a decent single phase one which can supply the spray gun fine but would like one sat outside in fresh air to feed the mask. Not much point having your mask's air supply coming from the area you are spraying in I had to have my compressor custom built - it's a 3 phase motor but supplied via a single phase invertor (has I only have a single phase supply - the electric meter goes into orbit when it runs) and housed within an acoustic cabinet - at £3,500 it wasn't cheap but it's an invaluable tool of my trade - you could run a second compressor for the air fed mask but it's a proper pain chasing two air lines supplied by two different compressors around a car - however the requirement for a 3 stage filter / coalescer is to reduce / separate oil & other foreign particle's retained within compressed air to an acceptable level for breathing - although running the compressor outside is a good idea it still will not be providing breathing quality air unless routed via a 3 stage filter |
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Last Edit: Mar 1, 2017 7:34:25 GMT by Deleted
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This is fine and various suppliers retail single pack aerosol automotive lacquers of various makes - even Halfrauds stock it, and I always keep a couple of cans of it in stock - it's great for small repairs / bumper corners / alloy wheels etc - if you look in the right places you can also purchase a blending repair lacquer again in aerosol - for blending out / spot repairing - Great for flexibility / small repairs and not just aimed at the home user either - all bodyshops use them - it saves time & money in setting up sprayguns / paint equipment / low overspray & you can achieve professional results with the right quality products - again don't buy at the cheap / bottom end of the market - use branded / high quality if you want the right results - so here is the answer to applying 1K / single pack lacquers at home - great if you have a small repair area / tank or even a bike frame - just don't expect to paint a car bonnet / roof or bodyshell with them (although I am confident that a there a few that has attempted it) |
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,322
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Yes lots of 'Hearsay' on this thread so let's add to it.
Fact of the matter is if you regularly spray 2k you should use the air fed mask and yes it obviously needs a carbon filter in the line to do any good (Masks actually have a small one integrated into the belt but I double up with a big one.) It doesnt need a particularly special compressor. Just somthing more than your basic garage spec. Easily achievable with single phase motors. The mask doesn't use too much air in the grand scheme of things.
Every professional sprayer will swear blind you need air fed at all times but it's because the hse have drummed it into them. In reality it's the same as everything else. All a case of minimising exposure levels over time and the hobbyist spraying one car every 5 years isn't going to drop dead because they didn't use one. The correct mask certainly can filter it just as the carbon filter in your air fed can filter it just maybe not quite as reliably!
Get 2k and suitible kit for how ever much you want to do and do a proper job imo. curse word cellulose and acrylics.
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@grumpynorthener - Just out of interest, do you wear your air-fed mask when spraying base colours?
I went to an automotive painter recently where they were wearing a filter mask for the colour and an air fed mask only for the clear. No mask at all whilst mixing, and the little corridor they used to mix paint in had such a high concentration of thinners in the air that I was light-headed after stepping in there to talk to the painter for a minute.
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@grumpynorthener - Just out of interest, do you wear your air-fed mask when spraying base colours? I went to an automotive painter recently where they were wearing a filter mask for the colour and an air fed mask only for the clear. No mask at all whilst mixing, and the little corridor they used to mix paint in had such a high concentration of thinners in the air that I was light-headed after stepping in there to talk to the painter for a minute. If the base coat is water based I only wear a filter mask come that same filter mask for solvent based basecoats - water / solvent based paint is not really a problem - it's the 2 pack lacquer / clearcoat & paints that are the real issue. |
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Yes lots of 'Hearsay' on this thread so let's add to it. Fact of the matter is if you regularly spray 2k you should use the air fed mask and yes it obviously needs a carbon filter in the line to do any good (Masks actually have a small one integrated into the belt but I double up with a big one.) It doesnt need a particularly special compressor. Just somthing more than your basic garage spec. Easily achievable with single phase motors. The mask doesn't use too much air in the grand scheme of things. Every professional sprayer will swear blind you need air fed at all times but it's because the hse have drummed it into them. In reality it's the same as everything else. All a case of minimising exposure levels over time and the hobbyist spraying one car every 5 years isn't going to drop dead because they didn't use one. The correct mask certainly can filter it just as the carbon filter in your air fed can filter it just maybe not quite as reliably! Get 2k and suitible kit for how ever much you want to do and do a proper job imo. curse word cellulose and acrylics. HSE - I certainly don't think so - I am an independent, sole trading restoration business, never seen the HSE or had any information from them so absolutely no influence there. What does influence me is what is stated upon the paint manufactures data sheets along with the fact that I value my health / lungs etc far above any glossy 2 pack paint job - you only have to look at a pot of activated paint / lacquer after it has set to realise that it has the capability in layman's terms to seal your lungs shut - please value you own health and ignore the above information that you are ok with a non air fed mask just because you are only going to be using it the once! |
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,322
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Yes the point is all coshh data sheets and hs reccemendations are based on prolonged use by professionals in an environment where it is simply illegal to provide anything less than the maximum practical protection against harm. That doesn't mean the hobbist doing it once in a blue moon will drop dead the second they open the tin without that maximum level of protection afforded to people doing it day in day out. To put it simply they're covering their  . Thats what modern hse is all about, covering asses! |
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Yes the point is all coshh data sheets and hs reccemendations are based on prolonged use by professionals in an environment where it is simply illegal to provide anything less than the maximum practical protection against harm. That doesn't mean the hobbist doing it once in a blue moon will drop dead the second they open the tin without that maximum level of protection afforded to people doing it day in day out. To put it simply they're covering their . Thats what modern hse is all about, covering asses! You do what you want - but please don't advise everyone else on the forum that it's ok to disregard there own health for the sake of a paint job - and yes I do know someone that will never work again after attempting to paint a commercial vehicle trailer with 2 pack without wearing the recommended air fed mask |
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Last Edit: Mar 1, 2017 17:31:11 GMT by Deleted
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This is the style of mask I was referring to as disposable not the paper ones: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gerson-2K-Disposable-Paint-Spray-Respirator-Face-Mask-NOT-AIR-FED-MASK-CAR-PAINT-/350690393436I watched the local paint suppliers point blank refuse to supply a regular customer when they twigged he was spraying without a mask. Edit well I suggested that mask as that's the style the suppliers got the guy to buy when he wouldn't go for an air fed. Now i've gone away and looked that type of mask up (they're similar to the ones we use when asbestos stripping and suffer from the same flaws of leaks round the edges which is why i smear mine with vaseline to make them seal) and if they are/ are not suitable for 2k appears to be up for debate, given they say they comply with US legislation unless the firm wanted to be bankrupted by lawsuits there then I would say make your own decision. Don't know why anybody wouldn't use an air fed mask for any type of spraying though if you are doing it regularly, paper type masks are rubbish for anything other than doing the dusting at home..... |
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You would not get me spraying 2K paint with one of these - not in a month of Sundays - Look at the ad and what it states 'Government legislation states that anybody spraying with isocyanates should always use a positive pressure air fed full face respiratory breathing system for full protection'
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Last Edit: Mar 1, 2017 22:46:58 GMT by Deleted
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