RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Could the harnesses be run around the existing bar that the tank's sat on? Taking them further back will reduce the difference in angle between you and Tom driving it. It might be worth thinking about the height difference between the two of you, and how far back the mount will have to be so that a strap that's near horizontal for Tom isn't too steep for yourself.
If you want to give Tom some maths homework you could always get the calculator out to try a good practical demonstration of trig:
Seated height difference / Tan(Max angle) = distance to mounting point.
On the other hand, remembering school he probably doesn't need or want any more!
I've never been sure about harnesses running upwards from your shoulders. I think the issue is that they can promote 'submarining' out the bottom of the harness, which can cause the lap strap to ride up off your hips and onto squishy non-load-bearing bits of you. With inertia real belts the initial slack let's your body move more upright before stopping you, so you're less likely to slip down, but I think I'd still go with horizontal or a slight down-slope given the choice (especially as your seats look fairly reclined.) I believe the MSA yearbook recommends 0-20deg downwards, but allows up to 45.
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Last Edit: Nov 14, 2017 0:20:06 GMT by RobinJI
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So I went back to the blackpopracing thread again and what I get is this... Inertia belts should be anchored (or at least guided from) above the shoulder height, and fixed belts from below. Have I got that right? |
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Last Edit: Nov 14, 2017 6:09:41 GMT by georgeb
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Spoke to BlackPopRacing, and his seltbelt instructions are the same. But the IVA manual is different, I was looking in section 19 (seatbelt anchorages) not section 31 (seatbelts) The upper mount needs to be 450mm above the test piece fitted onto a seat  The engineer in me wants to know what IVA know that the rest of motorsport doesn’t! |
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,882
Club RR Member Number: 39
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IVA test has to cater for a restraint system for thin short people and obese tall people and all in between with the seat moved back and forth and up and down - the MSA a test dummy picture - If you put a seven foot driver in the IVA picture what do the angles look like and a four foot four? - The MSA approach it from a harness and seat tailored for a driver of a racing car.
IVA have no idea what the ergonomics of the driver will be so they have to standardise somewhere as it has to work and be safe for the majority of people that sit in that seat. A racing car - I have no doubt if Lurch from the Addams family sat in Lewis Hamiltons Merc the MSA would not let him race even if he had a super license.
With what the IVA has to try and encompass - 4x4's to single seat speacials and any shape and size of driver it does a pretty good job.
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Could you weld in a few cross bars of differing height so you can loop the harnesses over the correct one to match the height of the person in the seat?
1 high enough to satisfy the BIVA (if it comes to that), 1 correct for your height and 1 for your boys? Also not forgetting that as he grows the belts will need to be raised up?
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jamesd1972
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,921 
Club RR Member Number: 40
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Makes sense, others will know better than me ! One other thought was that you might need to consider seats with harness cut outs - to ensure goes over shoulders at horizontal to 20 degs.
That bar you have tacked in or the existing one behind it might be fine in this situation.
I was told you want a minimum of downward pressure from mounting below the shoulder line by as this compresses your back. We desperately need to sort out the Land Rover when roofless for this reason.
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jamesd1972
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,921
Club RR Member Number: 40
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Nov 14, 2017 10:00:21 GMT
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 Make sense? Cut outs badly drawn in red belts in blue. We found on the Land Rover with the small person harness we mounted in the middle if you don't have harnesses mounted quite close together (head width) then a small person with narrow shoulders can pop out the middle. Nice to see all the positive input and people thinking about stuff on your behalf ! James |
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Last Edit: Nov 14, 2017 10:01:30 GMT by jamesd1972
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Nov 14, 2017 11:09:45 GMT
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IVA test has to cater for a restraint system for thin short people and obese tall people and all in between with the seat moved back and forth and up and down - the MSA a test dummy picture - If you put a seven foot driver in the IVA picture what do the angles look like and a four foot four? - The MSA approach it from a harness and seat tailored for a driver of a racing car. IVA have no idea what the ergonomics of the driver will be so they have to standardise somewhere as it has to work and be safe for the majority of people that sit in that seat. A racing car - I have no doubt if Lurch from the Addams family sat in Lewis Hamiltons Merc the MSA would not let him race even if he had a super license. With what the IVA has to try and encompass - 4x4's to single seat speacials and any shape and size of driver it does a pretty good job. I guess my issue is, I am happy to use the IVA as a guide, so most things to some extent make sense.... so conforming becomes a bit of an engineering challenge. But one of the purposes of this project was to help my dyslexic son learn some skills and that there is more to life than sitting at a desk writing and reading textbooks (which I think we have achieved, and he is happier at school) but to get the fugitive through the IVA, though possible, would take a huge amount of work. The engine will need enclosing, the front beam would need reworking to remove any sharp edges, the list goes on and on, and to be honest I don’t think this is the vehicle to do this on. Also I think the detail stuff would drive him away. So I am at a crossroads, I really don’t want this to become a field banger, as I think there is a lot still to learn, but if we aren’t going down the IVA route, then really I just want it to be as safe as possible, we can continue to build it, get it ready for the road... and if we aren’t allowed to drive it on a road, make another choice. I think I’ll look out for a Q plated one to use our learned skills on longer term, that way we can carry on without losing our drive. Alternatively, maybe build something else afterwards that is more IVA friendly... after all he can’t drive for another 6 years!! But that’s another story, and this fugitive will be MOTable and drivable and then we’ll worry about the what the government have in store!! (and please nobody mention ‘futility’ or ‘waste of money’ on this thread, and I can keep my head in the sand  ) A few years time we’ll be converting it into a flying electric car anyway |
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Nov 14, 2017 11:56:24 GMT
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So with that in mind,
The bar that I tacked in is at Tom’s shoulder height, and using that, or the one behind would give me about 20 degrees, so I think just stick with them for now? Or weld the higher bar in, as in James drawing?
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Nov 14, 2017 11:59:24 GMT
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So with that in mind,
The bar that I tacked in is at Tom’s shoulder height, and using that, or the one behind would give me about 20 degrees, so I think just stick with them for now? Or weld the higher bar in, as in James drawing?
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Nov 14, 2017 11:59:33 GMT
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But one of the purposes of this project was to help my dyslexic son learn some skills and that there is more to life than sitting at a desk writing and reading textbooks (which I think we have achieved, and he is happier at school). Aye, it's sometimes easy to forget what something was originally intended for when the engineering stuff starts raising its head. Folk, including me, just can't help themselves! For what it's worth, I reckon you're doing okay on both counts!  |
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Nov 14, 2017 13:03:57 GMT
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Just take them back to the stay that's already there?
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Nov 14, 2017 17:14:24 GMT
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Just take them back to the stay that's already there? I think that’s a plan, had a fault on a light in the chicken sheds, so had to pop up the Farm.... so had a look.... If I run a bar near where the seatbelt mounts were is abut 500-550 so could be done easily enough .  |
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Nov 14, 2017 21:13:07 GMT
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Keep your head in the sand. Build it, enjoy it. You can't put a price on the smiles, mate.
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agreed...seatbelts are for pussies!
when I was nipper we didn't even have kiddy seats let alone belts , hence the fact I went full-on airborne out of my carry cot from the back of my mums vitesse convertible over a humpback bridge....yeeeeehaaaawwwww!!
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating
'80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip
'97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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agreed...seatbelts are for pussies! when I was nipper we didn't even have kiddy seats let alone belts , hence the fact I went full-on airborne out of my carry cot from the back of my mums vitesse convertible over a humpback bridge....yeeeeehaaaawwwww!! The good old days We will fit seatbelts though!! Just don’t know which way to go, the instructions from the belt manufacturer or the ones from IVA, and they are very different |
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Go with manufacturer. Needing IVA is an"if" - needing belts is a certain. Just make sure it can be altered of needed or, better yet, for two sets of mounting points.
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If it is already registered as an IVA Fugitive, then surely BIVA won't be required?
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Nov 15, 2017 11:20:13 GMT
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If it is already registered as an IVA Fugitive, then surely BIVA won't be required? No, but I was using it as a standard to aspire to anyway.... so if we did the work to IVA standard (in my mind) it would be to better standard..... But as said above IVA is a blanket that is designed to cover all vehicles, so becomes a compromise. I thought it was the gold star that I should be setting as my goal regardless of whether it was needed, I agree it’s very nit picky and seems to be a real pain, but can also see that it’s there for a reason for it (if you look at the way the fugitive had been nailed together before, that has to be reason enough to have some sort of rule book!) |
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Nov 15, 2017 13:09:32 GMT
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could you make an adjustable one by adding thick flat stock to each side on the frame/cage at a height that makes sense where your level is, but also higher and lower....then cut either a slot or drill several holes on each side to bolt the cross bar to? then, as he grows, you can adjust easily? JP  |
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I know its spelled Norman Luxury Yacht, but its pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove!
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