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nothing bad happens when you take the bottom cover of the box, you will need a gasket though and the oil will smell like satans blood so try not to get it on your clothes the smell never goes! Gaskets ruined and half silicone anyway (not my doing), thats why its coming off. I'm one of the few who likes the smell of used gearbox oil! Its only been in 6 months 1500 miles anyway. |
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Davey
Posted a lot
Resident Tyre Nerd.
Posts: 2,349
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nothing bad happens when you take the bottom cover of the box, you will need a gasket though and the oil will smell like satans blood so try not to get it on your clothes the smell never goes! Gaskets ruined and half silicone anyway (not my doing), thats why its coming off. I'm one of the few who likes the smell of used gearbox oil! Its only been in 6 months 1500 miles anyway. But it smells like manure.... Weirdo.  |
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact
Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300
EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus - Mercedes W212 E250
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Just read from start to finish. Very inspirational work, you've made me want one! Looking forward to seeing how she evolves. And i'd just save the hassle and go discs up front.
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Mk2 Golf 16V resto
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Just read from start to finish. Very inspirational work, you've made me want one! Looking forward to seeing how she evolves. And i'd just save the hassle and go discs up front. I could go discs, but it would have to be custom made. Some people have used bmw stuff and transit stuff. If the brakes werent very good I would. I could hunt out some cf2 discs but there rare and new parts are hard to come by. Ill have one more go at sorting the judder then think again about discs. |
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having owned a "dums all round" vehicle for 2 years now i find them more than adequate. in terms of mechanical effort they are superior to equivalent sized disks/caliper as the shoe is working on the outermost extremity / circumference. shoe also have self servo effect.
the only thing i miss compared to 4 pot calipers and a disk is zero maintenance or adjustment (ignoring sacrificial parts)
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Apr 14, 2017 16:52:21 GMT
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Took the bottom plate of my gearbox, made a new gasket and refitted with a little sealant. Hopefully that will stop the leak!
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Apr 14, 2017 16:56:06 GMT
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Last Edit: Apr 14, 2017 17:00:34 GMT by VW
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Apr 14, 2017 17:16:57 GMT
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Book says permissable runout is 0.051mm so one is just over, one is double.
Even after swapping over the bigger runout moved with the drum.
However, my dial gauge was just on the floor, not clamped to anything solid. I was pushing the base onto the floor to steady it. Seemed reasonable stable but the runout figues may well be better than I measured.
New drums arent available. I will ask about and see how much it would cost to have them skimmed.
What do we make of the marks on the drum surface?
Ill still check all suspension mounts but it started raining.
I was also going to check if the shoes were wearing into the backplates and not sitting square but these brakes arent set up like that.
So its got to be...
Drum runout
A weak cylinder?
Bad shoes
suspension slack
unevenly adjusted adjusters
wheel bearing play
Anything else?
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Apr 14, 2017 19:05:15 GMT
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Take them to an engineering company and get them to give them a skim on a lathe.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Apr 14, 2017 22:47:17 GMT
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I've had stuff with way worse runout than that and it's been fine apart from a slightly pulsey pedal.
*edit* just looked at the pics again and they're not the bendix type. Tbh brakes with a separate cyl per shoe are always a sh1t to set up.
In which case looking at the obvious judder markings on the drum and shoe, I'd say contaminated shoes or possibly that section of drum isn't worn the same as the rest, say if someone's run some shoes through to the rivets or something, as it's only doing it in a band in the middle. I'd change the shoes and skim the drums.
The way you've measured the drums isn't really very accurate though, Personally I'd skim the drum and hub as an assembly, it only takes a minute amount of difference at the centre to make tons of difference at the braking surface.
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Last Edit: Apr 14, 2017 22:54:52 GMT by Dez
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Apr 15, 2017 10:17:17 GMT
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I've had stuff with way worse runout than that and it's been fine apart from a slightly pulsey pedal. *edit* just looked at the pics again and they're not the bendix type. Tbh brakes with a separate cyl per shoe are always a sh1t to set up. In which case looking at the obvious judder markings on the drum and shoe, I'd say contaminated shoes or possibly that section of drum isn't worn the same as the rest, say if someone's run some shoes through to the rivets or something, as it's only doing it in a band in the middle. I'd change the shoes and skim the drums. The way you've measured the drums isn't really very accurate though, Personally I'd skim the drum and hub as an assembly, it only takes a minute amount of difference at the centre to make tons of difference at the braking surface. I didnt think they were that far out either, not enough anyway. I know my measuring wasnt great, but I couldnt have measured them better than they are only made the measurents worse so my numbers must be 'worst case'. Ill see what local engineer's say about skimming. it does feel more like stiction than ovality if that makes sense. These are the first twin cylinder drums ive owned. Can you tell me any more about them being a pain to set up? Only thing I can adjust is the adjusters themselves and they have to be spot on to work nicely. I have veen doing the adjusters one at a time, usual story if adjust them tight, beat drum, back off. Repeat a couple of times to make sure everything is seated nice then final back off has to be as little as possible to let them spin free. Only other thing I could do is try and adjust both shoes at the same time. It seems to me though that I'm getting hung up in the details, trying to make sure they are as good as they can be, when in reality there is one issue causing the shies to stick and release on the drums (I can only assume a shoe issue of some kind). Ill get new shoes before I skim drums so they can go back together all fresh. |
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Apr 15, 2017 11:40:17 GMT
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Hi there I think the angle on the chamfered edge is to steep and end in a knife edge. You need something more gradual. Like this but even more gradual would be better.  |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Apr 15, 2017 11:40:21 GMT
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You've already touched on the issue, because each shoe has to be set up independently, it makes getting both of them touching at the right time difficult. It's what's known as a 'twin leading shoe' setup, and has an awful reputation in classic bike circles for similar reasons, they're hard to get set up right so they don't judder or grab, as you're basically having to adjust them blind. Have you tried adjusting them so one shoe makes contact first, or have you got them hitting even? Manufacturers knew right from the start they were a PITA and tried compensating for them by fitting Pistons with staggered bores (40s ford being the best known) and most had ditched the idea by the '50s and gone to floating shoe setups.
What's known as the 'bendix' type with a shared cylinder and floating adjuster are 'single leading shoe' and loads easier as all you do is adjust the shoe clearance and it equalises the shoes by itself, so there's literally
Nothing to adjust. That's why they're pretty much the only drums you'll see after the '60s, they're simpler and work better.
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Apr 15, 2017 11:49:32 GMT
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You've already touched on the issue, because each shoe has to be set up independently, it makes getting both of them touching at the right time difficult. It's what's known as a 'twin leading shoe' setup, and has an awful reputation in classic bike circles for similar reasons, they're hard to get set up right so they don't judder or grab, as you're basically having to adjust them blind. Have you tried adjusting them so one shoe makes contact first, or have you got them hitting even? Manufacturers knew right from the start they were a PITA and tried compensating for them by fitting Pistons with staggered bores (40s ford being the best known) and most had ditched the idea by the '50s and gone to floating shoe setups. What's known as the 'bendix' type with a shared cylinder and floating adjuster are 'single leading shoe' and loads easier as all you do is adjust the shoe clearance and it equalises the shoes by itself, so there's literally Nothing to adjust. That's why they're pretty much the only drums you'll see after the '60s, they're simpler and work better. I have no idea if the shoes hit even or one first. How would I even tell? As I say, I set one shoe up so its as perfect as I can get it, then set the other. Is it possible one cylinder is actuating before, or harder than the other? Could that also be an issue? Seems like a little free movement between the cylinder and the backplate might not be a bad idea. I think these bolt up tight. I remember my old anglia brakes were rubbish untill I realised they were all seized to the backplate. |
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Apr 15, 2017 14:24:29 GMT
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Went out and checked a few things over, all looked good.
poked a cylinder dust cover and it squelched. Seems one cylinder has a slight leak. Not enough to have breached the dust cover so hadnt noticed.
So, ill replace all 4 front cylinders too.
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Apr 15, 2017 15:10:27 GMT
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Back in the 90's when I was working as a Ford Main dealer technician one of the other technicians all of the light goods work and he had the both ends cut off a Transit twin wheel brake drum and used to use it to set the adjustment on the shoes as he could see the operation and set the clearance.
If you have a spare drum or can get one it may be worth you doing the same?
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my 88" landy has twin 11 inch drum, twin leading shoes on the front. to be frank when they are set up right they perform brilliantly, just as well maybe better than my previous landy which had 290 disks and 4 pot girlings !! keep at it !
i cant remember if its dejavu (so apologies) but is the angle of the shoe (in relation to the back plate) fixed? just a pressed lump on the backplate ?
deffo try chamfering the leading edge of each shoe like reliantscim said. this is a definitely a DIY "thing" with new shoes in classic car circles. would aso be worth winding a couple of the wheel nuts right down tight to hold the drum on, rather than just the retaining grub screw
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my 88" landy has twin 11 inch drum, twin leading shoes on the front. to be frank when they are set up right they perform brilliantly, just as well maybe better than my previous landy which had 290 disks and 4 pot girlings !! keep at it ! i cant remember if its dejavu (so apologies) but is the angle of the shoe (in relation to the back plate) fixed? just a pressed lump on the backplate ? deffo try chamfering the leading edge of each shoe like reliantscim said. this is a definitely a DIY "thing" with new shoes in classic car circles. would aso be worth winding a couple of the wheel nuts right down tight to hold the drum on, rather than just the retaining grub screw yeah, we did talk about shoe angle to back plate. The shoes sit against a lump. Nothing to wear. Only thing that could effect that is badly made or bent shoes. I have chamfered the Shoes more bur will replace them now anyway (ill do the new ones too). Although I'm happy to do it, I always think you shouldnt have to do things like this, if they needed the chamfer they would have had it from new. They will be skimmed, replaced or rebuilt cylinders and new shoes before its driven again, that and a proper setting up should sort it. |
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Ok, so where we at with this. I'm constantly working on it so loads has happened right? Not really. I had the brakes apart, found not much wrong. Slightly weepy cylinder so renewed all the cylinder seals. Brakes still judder but not as bad. Ill skim drums and fit new shoes soon. Had a few fluid leaks so stripped top end down and fitted new gaskets, its alot better. Still slight oil weep but nir sure where from yet. I then set about some relays. i fitted a relay so i can switch the pkwer windows on with ignition off. Windows now get power from leisure battery but only come on with ignition or seperate switch. Relayed the headlights. fitted a vw intermittent wiper relay as these don't have that function. I also fitted door switches fir the interior light. while i had dash out I repainted the facial and took the speedo apart. Its always been jumpy and over read. I cleaned and lubed the cable but still did it. When I had the cluster out I noticed something loose. Turns out the needle has a counterweight and it had fallen off. Hopefully that will fix it. Then, refitting just now I snapped the choke cable outer. Unavailable of course, so made this press fit sleeve to hold the stepped outer back together. Pressed it in with some bearing fit, seems solid. Daft thing to have to do especially as I only had 2" stock. Couple of dull pics...   |
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Last Edit: May 3, 2017 16:22:53 GMT by VW
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westycapri
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 266
Club RR Member Number: 105
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You've just got to get out and use it? Any trips planned?
Cheers
Josh
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@fantasticmrford
1984 Ford Capri 2.0s
1978 Ford Transit Autosleeper
1975 Landrover Series 111 Dormobile
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