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May 31, 2007 12:08:12 GMT
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A 250bhp k-series is going to have the same sort of power band as a hayabusa..... It wont make any power upto about 5000rpm and will then scream upto 7500. The majority of power will be between 6000 and 7000rpm. A hayabusa makes power between 7000-11000 rpm, with the majority being between 8000 & 10000. After all the gearing down (most bike engines are geared down about 1.5:1 between the crank and the gearbox) etc, the power band would be roughly the same.
A 170bhp XE engine (similarly priced inc gearbox etc) isn't going to offer the same performance as a hayabusa due to the extra weight, and wouldn't be as quick on track, but would offer better road manners.
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1997 TVR Chimaera
2009 Westfield Megabusa
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May 31, 2007 12:36:26 GMT
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ahh but i wasnt talking about screaming 250bhp k series engines, a 160bhp bike engine versus a 160bhp duratec for example is more what i was talking about, the bike engine may make for a lighter car that will accelerate stop and corner better, BUT it will probably still lap slower overall than the car engine in the same car in the real world, as in the real world people make slight errors and a car engine with its wider power spread is more forgiving.
you can see it at every track day you go to, we have almost had fights in the pit lane several times as the bike engined kit cars get the hump and wont let us escort boys overtake simply cos they don't want there 15 grand brand new meccano sets overtaken by a 30 year old car!
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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May 31, 2007 16:16:15 GMT
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I'm going bike carbs but been thinking why not bike engine I mean loose the iron block up front and that will bring the shell well under 600kg's hmmmmm That would be mental! Do it, ZX9R engine? |
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Sierra - here we go again! He has an illness, it's not his fault.
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May 31, 2007 16:39:53 GMT
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ahh but I wasnt talking about screaming 250bhp k series engines, a 160bhp bike engine versus a 160bhp duratec for example is more what I was talking about, the bike engine may make for a lighter car that will accelerate stop and corner better, BUT it will probably still lap slower overall than the car engine in the same car in the real world, as in the real world people make slight errors and a car engine with its wider power spread is more forgiving. you can see it at every track day you go to, we have almost had fights in the pit lane several times as the bike engined kit cars get the hump and wont let us escort boys overtake simply cos they don't want there 15 grand brand new meccano sets overtaken by a 30 year old car! I don't really understand what you're saying. The bike engined car will accelerate faster, stop faster and corner better but will be slower than a car engined one  Doesn't really make sense! |
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1997 TVR Chimaera
2009 Westfield Megabusa
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May 31, 2007 17:48:31 GMT
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It's not the bhp that wins it for the BECs, it's the lack of weight! My GSXR1100 lump weighs just under 100kgs wet for a complete engine and gearbox. A K-series weighs 120kgs for just the engine + another 50kgs in the gearbox etc. If the BEC weighs less than about 500kgs it doesn't really need the torque, but the power from 8000-11000rpm will push it to stupid speeds. The Caterham SL R500 goes from 0-60 in 3.3 secs, 0-100 of 8secs and costs the wrong side of £32k, weighing 470kgs as it has magnesium this, carbon fibre that, leightweight the other etc. A hayabusa powered MK Indy will weigh 430kgs with very little cost / effort (£12k max) and will do 0-60 in 3.7 secs, 0-100 in 9 secs etc. The main factor is cost really. Bike engines are cheap for the performance you get. You can tune a K-series to 250bhp with roller barrel carbs, really lairy cams etc. but it will start to cost you into 5 figures for just the engine, and when put in a caterham it would be heavier and probably have the same performance as a standard Hayabusa engined equivilent. Sorry Adam, but having driven Busa engined Caterhams and the Factory "Rizla" 2.0l 250hp K series engined Caterham, I can assure you that in the real world the Car engine whups the bike engine in Ease of use, Torque, economy, drivability etc OK not a Fair comparison due to the costs involved ?? Hayabusa Engine and box - £3k which lets not forget is only the start of it, if you are going to do it properly you will need a drysump kit as well and somekind of reversing box which will add over a grand to the cost. That gets you a real 170ish HP and about 80ft/lbs of torque If I was going to spend £3k on an engine box combo then my money would go on a S2000 set up, 240hp cant remember torque but is more than 80ft/lbs, 6 speed box and you would get the loom,ECU and lsd rear diff for that money as well. Thats 240hp that in the standard car gets a 100,000 mile warranty and meets all emmisions and economy targets as well. I`m sorry but however you look at it, 12K is not cheap for a toy with 170hp, 12K is not cheap for 170hp and practicality either.... My ENTIRE car will be less than the cost of a Busa engine, It`ll be somewhere north of 200hp, 800kg, lsd, DTA ECU with Traction control etc and a shed load more practical as well - its even got a hatchback  ;D I expect it will even return pretty decent MPG on a Run as well I`ll be interested to hear if you still think £12,000 is Cheap for a toy when you are repaying the same amount for your student loan after University out of your wages, wait till you know how hard it is to earn enough that you have 12K after Tax to live on and maybe you`ll change your opinion slightly  don't get me wrong, I like Bike engines, but they are more fun in bikes and there are better choices for cars, especially cars that need to be more than toys ;D I am still looking forward to seeing the Locost finished though ;D |
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May 31, 2007 17:56:05 GMT
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makes sense to me, on a perfect lap then the faster lighter better handling bike engined car will be faster, but how often do you get a perfect lap? in a race you get cars blocking you, your forced offline or you have to slow because someone in front is crashing/sliding/defending their line.
Any of those things can put you in the wrong place in the wrong gear or out of your power band, this is where the wider more usable power of a car engine wins hands down, dropping down two gears to get the revs back up can take a second or so, the guy who's engine is still making power so he don't have to change gear WILL out drag you out of a corner.
The cars that win races are not always the most powerfull or the best handling, they are usually the ones that are easiest to drive fast and are a bit forgiving.
A scoobi, an evo or a skyline for instance will get you round a track pretty damn fast and bail you out of a lot of trouble you can get into.
same with engines, an engine that helps you go fast makes it much easier to win than one that is more powerfull but needs more help from you.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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May 31, 2007 18:02:55 GMT
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Ease of use, Torque, economy, drivability yes, I've already said that  Lap times on a track the gap would be a lot smaller! Yes, you could have an S2000 engine and box for £3000, but I don't know of a single kit car manufacturer to offer it as an engine option, meaning extra time / money etc. You could have a ZX12R engine for £1500.... 180bhp and 100lbft. I was just thinking of the common options. If i was going to run a seven on the road I would have a 2.0l Duratec straight away, 170bhp and plently of torque out of the box, but a Hayabusa engined car would still be quicker around the track. £12k is cheap compared to the £32k Caterham want for something with only marginal better performance! I would never pay £12k for one.... When I say little effort/cost I mean no carbon/kevlar body panels, magnesium wheels, lightweight tubular chassis etc. |
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1997 TVR Chimaera
2009 Westfield Megabusa
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May 31, 2007 19:17:46 GMT
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12K is still 12K Tell me its still cheap once you have earned it ;D |
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May 31, 2007 19:23:21 GMT
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12K is still 12K Tell me its still cheap once you have earned it ;D I'll never have that much money at one time! ;D |
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1997 TVR Chimaera
2009 Westfield Megabusa
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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May 31, 2007 20:45:35 GMT
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il chip in again ;D my little pig is awesome on a tiny sprint curcuit where speeds never get over 60 apart from the finish straight but i know if i took it to oulton id get raped by the car engined lads as soon as we get over 80mph as bikes just don't have the grunt simple as that ,as a total package bike engined cars are curse word !!! clutch es are an on off swich when pulling away and first is mega tall so its a pain to pull off smoothly, you cant cruise because of the curse word gearing ...but if you want to play f1 and wup everyone at the lights they rule ;D ;D ;D.
i spent very little building mine but I'm glad i did ,mainly for the v twin soundtrack but if were throwing serious money at a car i would look at the s2000 or the turbo audi/vw units for good value for 300ish hp not a bike engine even if the lack of weight of bike engined cars makes the power to weight look enourmous.
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impmann
Posted a lot
Overcoming stupidity is the greatest challenge left to mankind
Posts: 1,089
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May 31, 2007 21:09:34 GMT
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I cant think of any other car that is small,light rwd and under 500kg than a kitten Er, Clan Crusader, Davrian or Bond Bug... And I don't like bike engined cars cos they don't sound right - they sound like.... well, bikes really! And if you want a car engine that can rev like the billy-o, weighs nowt, has bags and bags of tuning ability plus sounds the dogs danglies when used properly... ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce the Hillman Imp engine:   |
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1964 Hillman Imp
1976 Hillman Imp
1967 Hillman Imp
(And a few projects dotted around the country)
Just cos something is good for you doesn't mean its good for everyone - for example Marmite does not make good Dog Food.
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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May 31, 2007 21:36:30 GMT
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you can still buy a kitten for a couple of hundred quid though my little van was put together for £1500 or about the same as getting 125hp from an imp engine which my tl1000 engine makes for £300 and 65kg. il put money on the clan being heavier than the kitten too and you wont find a complete bug for under a grand now. cant argue about the imp engine being a screamer but certainly not cheap |
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do you have a build thread froggy?
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Bioshock
Posted a lot
It aint hip to be square.
Posts: 1,861
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Works the other way 'round too BMW 750i Engined bike FTW  ;D |
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Almera GTI = ugly bird who turns out to be great in the sack = Win
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its all horses for courses and we all have different ideas about what works, keeps life interesting.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Doesn't really make sense!
;D
Lap times on a track the gap would be a lot smaller!
