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May 30, 2007 18:30:33 GMT
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Aye - plus you need things like new starters, working out gearbox operation, clutches, reverse systems and so on - can add to the cost a fair bit. well any bike engine of power will be a faired sport bike, meaning it already has a 12v starter. gearbox operation is just a couple of rose joints away from working. the gearbox is cast as one peice on 99% of newer bikes so you won't be swapping 'boxes from cars on. you won't need reverse really because if you're using bike power the car will be so light you can push it backwards. I think most people aim for a target weight of 550 kgs and hopefully a lot less (place where mantaA16v works from have a steel chassis one weighing 415kg!), so not super heavy. but the engines are going up in price now, and its not an everyman swap, its an engineering quest to put one in. you'll never get a bolt in kit. just some useful info  |
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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May 30, 2007 20:29:40 GMT
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just my 2p if the car you want to fit a bike engine to a car over 500kg you might feel let down with a blade engine or anything with less than 140hp ,chain drive is the way to go or you will have gearing issues if you prop drive it due to having two final reductions. bikes have a tall first gear meaning my kitten van will touch 50mph in first gear but the other five are really close so you will have terrible earache if you want to go any distance 70mph can be at 7000rpm  I'm a bit biased but i cant think of any other car that is small,light rwd and under 500kg than a kitten ,put in perspective an r1 engined z cars mini weighs 650kg with a glassfibre front end my little pig weighs 475kg  the cheapest engines are the cbr1000f and the early zx10 both are 130ish hp both a bit lardy but lots around,i bought a complete zx10 with t+t last year for £700 but it was too good to break so it got sold and i bought a damaged cbr1000f for £350 sold the bits i didnt want for £150. pound for pound bike engines are streets ahead of car engines but I'm glad i don't have to drive mine every day . |
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B-8-D
Posted a lot
down to one car!!
Posts: 4,038
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May 30, 2007 22:09:09 GMT
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I'm throwing a vfr800 engine in my imp and will let you all know how i get on...
but like froggy said...
the gearing can be an issue... and must be right....
also remember there is no reverse...
(I'm building a startermotor reverse strait off the prop'... !)
si
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May 30, 2007 22:18:52 GMT
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GSXR1100 engines, oil cooled and water cooled, come into the same catagory as the CBR1000 and ZX10 engines |
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1997 TVR Chimaera
2009 Westfield Megabusa
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B-8-D
Posted a lot
down to one car!!
Posts: 4,038
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May 30, 2007 22:24:43 GMT
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GSXR1100 engines, oil cooled and water cooled, come into the same catagory as the CBR1000 and ZX10 engines annnd one of the true bulletproof engines... before the hayabusa there was just the gsxr and the gsx in dragracing as THE engines to have... cheep too. cant wait to see yours done matey.. si |
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slammed 66
Posted a lot
www.gtturbo.org
Posts: 1,675
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May 30, 2007 22:54:31 GMT
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Id love a bike motor in the back of my metro! Mmmmm..... hayabusa turbo tro *DROOL*
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86 Renault 5 GT Turbo 89 Renault extra 91 Skyline GTR 98 Mini 1275 mpi 99 Autech Rider www.gtturbo.org |
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Yeh but a 1100cc 150bhp bike engine is expensive compared to say a Vauxhall XE which will make the same power, loads more torque, do loads more mpg, is much easier to fit, and will make the car infinetley more driveable.
Matt Totally agreed with ya there mate. But i can't have an xe. I must have a 1 liter. and i'm never ever gonna get an xe into a ep70 starlet, in fact I'd have to cut up the right chassis leg just to get in a 1.6 a series. |
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I'm a bit biased but I cant think of any other car that is small,light rwd and under 500kg than a kitten When I owned Suzuki Whizzkids I thought they might be suitable for a bike engine too? The engine sits on top of the rear axle next to the gearbox, bit like a FWD but, errr in the back ;D You're right about the gearing, my Kawasaki ZZR1100 does 75mph in first. But it's completely smooth at 12000rpm and with the standard exhaust isn't that noisy either. |
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on the track the bike engined caterhams are not as fast as the car engined ones, they just don't have the oomph to pull em out of the corners, there was a small panic amongst the race boys when they first arrived and a several were built as they were expected to win everything, now they have there own class as they were not competitive against the car engines.
bike engines are a great idea if you have no room and need power in a small light package, if you can fit a car engine in the gap then thats the way to go.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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on the track the bike engined caterhams are not as fast as the car engined ones, they just don't have the oomph to pull em out of the corners, there was a small panic amongst the race boys when they first arrived and a several were built as they were expected to win everything, now they have there own class as they were not competitive against the car engines. bike engines are a great idea if you have no room and need power in a small light package, if you can fit a car engine in the gap then thats the way to go. I think you'll find that is a little wrong ;D There isn't a caterham bike engined class.... only car engines. Caterham only ever built 2 types of bike engine caterham, on of which was the superlight Fireblade, and the other was the slighly more lardy Blackbird engined version. Neither of these were particularly popular, hence caterham never introduced them into racing. BECs have been seperated from other cars in a lot of racing series as they produce so much power from a tiny engine. 1300 Hayabusa engined cars (weighing sub-400kgs and 170bhp) were going into classes with standard 1400 car engines (weighing 550kgs with 105bhp) and were anihilating everything on the track! So they had to create other classes for them or ban them altogether. |
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Last Edit: May 31, 2007 9:35:56 GMT by Adam
1997 TVR Chimaera
2009 Westfield Megabusa
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Not sure about cheap speed. That mini subby costs 3 grand and you still need to find an engine.
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Jaguar S-Type 3.0 SE
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I'm going bike carbs but been thinking why not bike engine i mean loose the iron block up front and that will bring the shell well under 600kg's
hmmmmm
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 once again rocking with 1117cc and 4 gears! |
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May 31, 2007 10:01:44 GMT
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thats not the way I heard it from the race car builder I spoke to about why he was still building car engined racers, maybe it wasnt caterhams, it was deffo something that sort of shape though, he was showing me lap times and pics and race results on his pc from some series or other and said that the bike engines were not competitive against car engines, he prepares and builds cars for several series, and knows what he is doing, the mk1 escort he looks after still runs a x flow lump but its beating 2 litre escorts/bmw's, 24v tvr's and is right on the heels of the DTM 5 litre mercs in the series it races in. bike engines are not better than car engines, its useable torque that wins races, not bhp. heres the driver of the escorts web site if anyone is interested, some good cars in these races.  www.andypipe.co.uk/ |
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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May 31, 2007 10:03:42 GMT
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;D the x'flow is not dead really is a force to be reconed with I know a 13 second escort and a fiesta capeable of getting into the 13's both x'flows  id love to see a kit car with a propper lairy x'flow in it |
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Last Edit: May 31, 2007 10:04:38 GMT by samyboy
once again rocking with 1117cc and 4 gears! |
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May 31, 2007 10:17:19 GMT
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thats not the way I heard it from the race car builder I spoke to about why he was still building car engined racers, maybe it wasnt caterhams, it was deffo something that sort of shape though, he was showing me lap times and pics and race results on his pc from some series or other and said that the bike engines were not competitive against car engines, he prepares and builds cars for several series, and knows what he is doing, the mk1 escort he looks after still runs a x flow lump but its beating 2 litre escorts/bmw's, 24v tvr's and is right on the heels of the DTM 5 litre mercs in the series it races in. bike engines are not better than car engines, its useable torque that wins races, not bhp. It's not the bhp that wins it for the BECs, it's the lack of weight! My GSXR1100 lump weighs just under 100kgs wet for a complete engine and gearbox. A K-series weighs 120kgs for just the engine + another 50kgs in the gearbox etc. If the BEC weighs less than about 500kgs it doesn't really need the torque, but the power from 8000-11000rpm will push it to stupid speeds. The Caterham SL R500 goes from 0-60 in 3.3 secs, 0-100 of 8secs and costs the wrong side of £32k, weighing 470kgs as it has magnesium this, carbon fibre that, leightweight the other etc. A hayabusa powered MK Indy will weigh 430kgs with very little cost / effort (£12k max) and will do 0-60 in 3.7 secs, 0-100 in 9 secs etc. The main factor is cost really. Bike engines are cheap for the performance you get. You can tune a K-series to 250bhp with roller barrel carbs, really lairy cams etc. but it will start to cost you into 5 figures for just the engine, and when put in a caterham it would be heavier and probably have the same performance as a standard Hayabusa engined equivilent. |
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1997 TVR Chimaera
2009 Westfield Megabusa
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May 31, 2007 11:01:53 GMT
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Go for it samyboy! if it ain't fast enough afterward, slap a turbo on it! oldskoolsuzuki.info/ have loads of info on turbo'ing the old oil cooled 1100 suzook I think you guy's are missing the point. There is no 1 liter car engine that can beat a 1 liter bike engine and that sequential box is worth it. |
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May 31, 2007 11:02:32 GMT
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Thanks TerraRoot, that link looks good!
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1997 TVR Chimaera
2009 Westfield Megabusa
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May 31, 2007 11:04:42 GMT
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I'm just about togo on ebay.....someone stop me  no to expensive so I'm buying more bike carbs |
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Last Edit: May 31, 2007 11:21:22 GMT by samyboy
once again rocking with 1117cc and 4 gears! |
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May 31, 2007 11:17:04 GMT
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;D the x'flow is not dead really is a force to be reconed with I know a 13 second escort and a fiesta capeable of getting into the 13's both x'flows id love to see a kit car with a propper lairy x'flow in it I'd like to bet they are both about as lairy as a bike engined car would be though. As Jonney69 pointed out the Harris Mk1 Escort is running like 13.5:1 CR and that won't even run on Super unleaded its race fuel only, something like £5 a litre mad stuff. Yeah its taking thr x/f to the max and I like that but I need to see peope doing stuff with cars I can daily drive or it just stays as a "nice toy" rather than a wicked car... |
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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May 31, 2007 11:42:52 GMT
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0 - 60 times are no judge of how good a car will be on the road/track and neither is bhp per ton, its in gear acceleration and how much power/torque you have at ALL engine speeds.
you can build a screamer of an engine with a teeny power band that will go like curse word off a stick off the line and make huge bhp per ton numbers, but try and use it for real and you soon find out that less power and a wider torque spread will kill it.
If Andy misses a gear or drops out of his X flows power band you can watch him lose 2 or three places to the bigger engined, heavier cars, the same problem catches out the bike engines, even in a light car you can watch them appear to go backwards.
I know its possible for anyone to miss or be in the worng gear, but the problem isnt so serious in something with a bigger less revvy engine.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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