delux
Part of things
There's treasure everywhere!
Posts: 531
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Apr 10, 2012 17:22:16 GMT
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Hi,
please the excuse the newbie questions!
I'm working through the prospect of an engine swap for my 944 - Ive just been given a complete donor Volvo 960 car with a lovely 6 cylinder engine - that would be perfect under the bonnet and give the 944 a lovely purr...
Initial measurements indicate it will fit which leaves me contemplating matching the engine to the torque tube and bellhousing leaving the transaxle intact. I've scoured many threads on engine swaps but I'm needing the advice of experienced engine swappers to help me through this!
The TT shaft is 1x23 spline and the factory clutch 225mm. ( same as some Fords I read)
The 6 cylinder whiteblock has a 228mm flywheel. I'm presuming the 944 flywheel isn't going to simply bolt up to the whiteblock crankshaft - or will it? What solutions?
Or will the 225mm clutch work with the 228mm flywheel?
My simplistic thinking is if I retain the 944 bellhousing and clutch then I just need to mate up the engine.
I know I need an adapter to mate the 944 bellhousing to the volvo engine but how then to compensate for its width as the driveshaft in the TT will effectively be 'shorter' by the same measurement not so?
Will that even matter if it's about 10mm?
If it does matter, Perhaps I could have the TT housing shortened by the same amount but leave the shaft the same length restoring the correct dimensions?
Thanks for any constructive contributions!
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Last Edit: Apr 18, 2012 20:45:24 GMT by delux
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,220
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Apr 10, 2012 19:37:04 GMT
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First question, is the Volvo engine a huge improvement over the 944 engine, in terms of hp to weight?
If it isn't, I'd save the effort for fitting a 944 turbo engine or a 928 V8.......but that's me!
However, I'd suggest using the Volvo bellhousing and seeing if you can then match that to the Torque Tube and driveshaft, you should be able to get the Volvo flywheel machined to match the Porsche clutch.
You may be able to get the back half of the Porsche bellhousing welded to the front part of the Volvo's one?
Lots of luck. And keep us up-dated please, with lots of photos!
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delux
Part of things
There's treasure everywhere!
Posts: 531
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Apr 10, 2012 21:05:05 GMT
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Power to weight is similar from what I can establish; both are all aluminium: 944 8v 163bhp when new with little prospect of uprating - 960 24v 170/190bhp and much more tuneable with a sweet six cylinder exhaust note to boot...
Fitting a 944 turbo will also need an ecu swap as well as engine and manifolds, plus inter cooler and front bumper mods. Virtually as much work but I need to buy that, whereas the 960 is free and I can sell the rest for parts.
928 V8 doesn't fit in 944.
The problem I'm finding as I keep digging is there doesn't seem to be a separate bellhousing for the 960 manual - perhaps a Volvo guru can clear that up & suggest one to use instead of the Porsche one?
I like the idea of merging the bellhousings - perhaps I can use the engine side of the auto bellhousing welded to the rear of the 944 bellhousing. As both are aluminium can anyone confirm that's possible?
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Apr 10, 2012 21:27:58 GMT
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Manual 960...... there's a rarity.
You might find the auto versions have a detachable bell housing?
If you find yourself needing a home for the manual 'box I can think of a use for it!
Cheers
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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delux
Part of things
There's treasure everywhere!
Posts: 531
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Hi Nick - this is an auto, so I do have the attachable bellhousing that I can use to house the clutch but I'm stuck on how to get the thrust bearing/ clutch fork to pivot. A Volvo guy must have done something like this before...
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Apr 11, 2012 11:46:01 GMT
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If you're making a bolt-up adaptor plate for the bellhousing - then making up a spacer/adaptor for the porker flywheel could work too. Just make sure it's made from steel  |
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You're like a crazy backyard genius! |
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Lawsy
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,615
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Apr 11, 2012 13:07:30 GMT
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out of interest as being a new 944 owner myself, any reason for the change?
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delux
Part of things
There's treasure everywhere!
Posts: 531
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Apr 11, 2012 15:03:04 GMT
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@ chairchild - do you mean the spacer for the flywheel? why steel and not aluminium? If I use steel can the adapter be thinner?
@ Lawsy - my current 8v engine was about to be completely rebuilt and I had some other plans to uprate it - this swap idea came about this past weekend when my OM offered me his 960. I've always loved the engine note and smoothness of the inline 6 and seeing as tho Porsche had a hand in it's development I figured "why not investigate"
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Last Edit: Apr 11, 2012 15:04:46 GMT by delux
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,220
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Apr 11, 2012 16:44:47 GMT
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Hi Nick - this is an auto, so I do have the attachable bell housing that I can use to house the clutch but I'm stuck on how to get the thrust bearing/ clutch fork to pivot. A Volvo guy must have done something like this before... What about something like this? www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=1315_1883&products_id=13879&osCsid=sovsit18ve4sbj85taamqtbe34Other versions are available, sits inside the bell housing over main shaft and all you have to do is run a pipe into the bell housing. Sounds easy when you say it fast! |
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delux
Part of things
There's treasure everywhere!
Posts: 531
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Apr 11, 2012 17:10:22 GMT
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hey thats Andy thanks for that - I think I may need to pop round there - that could just solve my problem. Be interesting to know how that's mounted
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Apr 11, 2012 18:55:11 GMT
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I say steel, just for the sheer fact that it would be able to cope with the high shear forces better than a lump of alloy - without the need to do stress analysis to see where it would fail (rather easy to do tbh! Just slap it into an appropriate CAD program, and it'll tell you where the weak points are) Basically, you could just make it the size of the crankshaft output, without needing to worry about it in the slightest |
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Apr 11, 2012 20:38:27 GMT
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The guys tuning stuff on the Volvo forums tend to use the red block turbo as its really strong and can take loads of boost, or the later 5 pot engines as they are quite pokey already, probably worth getting onto turbo bricks, the volvo owners club forums or the volvo performance club uk forums and asking for advise, they know lots of stuff on there. Old 8v turbos making 250bhp are quite common.
I turned the boost up with a 15 quid MBC, some silicon pipes and a boost gauge on my red block and it went from 136bhp to what feels like 180 to 190ish instantly, the limitation is the fuel cut at 15psi from the ECU, but that can be got round with a simple mod.
I only know what i've read on there and am learning as i go but from what i can see it should be possible to get 220bhp ish for another couple of hundred quid, cheap cars to 940 turbos.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,220
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Apr 13, 2012 16:51:40 GMT
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that could just solve my problem. Be interesting to know how that's mounted I belive (don't qoute me!) that it uses a spacer between the gear box and this postions it where you want it to sit....... I thought that maybe you could chop each bell housing in half (ish) and then weld each half either side of a flat plate? Not pretty, but it may work....allow for the extra width of the plate! |
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delux
Part of things
There's treasure everywhere!
Posts: 531
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Thanks for the feedback.
It seems like the i6 plus its auto bell will be the better option to use as the starter motor is placed alongside the engine from the front and not from behind the bellhousing as in the existing arrangement. This may also give a little more space back there. Which means either welding the rear of the 944 bell to the 960 bellhousing as suggested by Andy (I'm awaiting a quote on that) or fabricating an adapter from a cad file to bolt up to the TT. I'm trying to source the drawings. Then I can mount the hydraulic clutch cylinder thingy to the adapter.
Any idea if I can use the existing hydraulic master & pipes connected to one of those rally design slave cylinders?
I need to think about and understand how to eliminate the immobiliser and how to install the ecu and wiring loom in the 944 - that kind of electrickery is going to be my greatest challenge I think... More research on that and any pointers appreciated.
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,220
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Apr 17, 2012 10:46:29 GMT
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Have a look at this retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=readersrides&action=display&thread=62127 it's what I was suggesting to do with the gearbox and bell housing. Is your Volvo engine EWS1 or EWS2, EWS is the global anti-theft standard, EWS1 is fairly easy, in that it isn't a rolling code, EWS2 is rolling i.e. the code changes every time you take the key out of the ignition! 2 ways around it, send the ECU to someone like Endtuning and they can remove all the unwanted code and give it a re-map too, or just get a matching set of sender, key and EWS ecu and just leave the key taped to the sender! No idea if this will work on a Volvo, I do know it works on BMW's! |
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delux
Part of things
There's treasure everywhere!
Posts: 531
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Apr 18, 2012 20:40:00 GMT
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Ok thats a neat welding job that is.
I'm not certain of the antitheft version, as I've got the whole car I suppose I should be able to work around it even if it does mean taping up the key lol but thanks for the Endtuning heads up.
Ive also discovered that Volvo also used those concentric slave cylinders so I'm going to look at using one of those from a S/V40 (if I recall)
The big question now is wiring loom and dash instrument compatibility. Any thoughts on that RRs?
Plus is it possible to remove the engine from the 960 with wiring loom intact so I don't jumble things up?
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10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,253
Club RR Member Number: 204
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Apr 18, 2012 23:44:40 GMT
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Good choice of engine the 3.0 24v is a peach of a unit and the Swedes get crazy bhp numbers out of them I was reading about one car that had 900is bhp out of a seriously worked over 3.0 24v turbo, as standard though turbo on N/A they are lovely and can hustle a dirty great 960 along with indecent haste even through a slushbox , i imagine in a 944 they'd fly, plus they make a delightful noise!
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The Internet, like all tools, if used improperly, can make a complete bo**cks of even the simplest jobs...
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delux
Part of things
There's treasure everywhere!
Posts: 531
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ah that noise! yes indeed I love the sound of a Sixer.
Apparently Porsche did consider a Peugeot/Renault/Volvo PRV V6 for the 944 - but I suppose they thought a cheaper option would be to cut the 928 V8 in half and use that instead...shame on them
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