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Reality check: Engine swaps.BenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Sept 22, 2006 10:36:20 GMT
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There's a lot of enthusiasm on RR about engine swaps - and rightly so. But I thought I'd start a thread about the practicalities of doing such a swap - what problems have you encountered? Are you planning to do one yourself? etc. Tongue-in-cheek "Stick a [insert engine type here]" comments are made quite a lot (I know I do it!) but I thought a thread like this might be useful for those planning to "lob a Zetec in there!" So, what's involved? Here are a few general things I've been considering for my first ever transplant... - Space! Is there physically enough room in the bay, or will bulkhead / inner wing mods be needed? - Engine mounts. Will these need to be made from scratch? Or can the originals be used? - Gearboxes. Will the original cope with the extra power? - Adaptor plates. If you're keeping the original box, are adaptor plates available / can they be fabbed up cheaply enough? That's just a few off the top of my head... anecdotes, ideas, points to consider about general transplanting all welcome!
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Sept 22, 2006 10:44:27 GMT
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A very good idea for a thread BB!
I get royally pee'd off with keyboard experts and lazy journalists in certain publication who state 'Just sling XYZ engine in there'
I'm in no hurry to do any swapping any time soon. I'm sure if I had years of automotive experience and a fully fitted workshop it really is that easy. But I've found that even like-for-like swaps where no fabbing etc is concerned it an be tricky enough!
Can someone give a gude to how one actually measures up accurately for such jobs? Measuring (much bigger) stuff is my trade so I'm sure I could pick it up easy enough.... or is it just a case of trial fitments till it's right???
I must confess i've been having very dirty thoughts recently involving my BM & an e36 3.2 M3 lump..... ;D
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Sept 22, 2006 11:19:26 GMT
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My thoughts and experiances....
Theres 3 types of swap. Like for like, Upgrade and hybrid.
Like for like usually should be siumple, but some stuff changes year on year. We fitted a 1971 Vauxhall FD Vcitor slant 4 engine into a 1969 (but 1970 registered) FD Victor. I needed to use some bits off the original engine. That turned into a nightmare. Vauxhall changed no end of minor components in 1969 and mine was an early '69 car, so it was all different to the '71 car. Even the head dowels are a different diameter.
Upgrade swaps are where you take an engine which was used in another variant of that car and fit it into a base model. Like a 2.8 V6 into a 1.6 Capri or whatever. These are also fraught with surprising difficulties and unexpectred hitches. A mate of mine has a mint Mustang 2.3LX and bought a rough 5.0GT to convert the LX into a V8. Good job he bought the whole donor and not just the engine. He needed the front subframe from the V8 car as it was a different shape to the LX one, the rear axle is stronger and different geared, even the DASHBOARD needed swapping out! The dash clusterin the V8 is larger due to having more dials and the binacle is a different shape on the LX and as its moulded into the dash facia the whole dash has to be swapped. Such things as the heater also are different. He's rebuilt prettymuch the whol e car inside and out. Also some cars switch from cable to hydraulic clutch when you move to a higher powered version, brakes, servos, etc all will be different and may have different mounting on the body and these mountings may not be present. Also these things vary year on year so your '83 car with an '88 engine may switch from cable to electronic speedo for example.
Also remember that some cars when they got the larger engine got reinforced shells, extra bracing or seam welding of strut tops or similar. Always research this before starting a swap.
Then theres the hybriod swap, this is like a Rover V8 going into a Sierra or a Ford 302 going into a Marina.
Just because it looks like it will fit doesn't mean it will. Bulkheads are often not flat and may kick back into the bay meaning that you have to move the motor slightly further forward than you thought. The sump may now conflict with the cross member.
You need to measure not only the trans tunnel, but the bellhousing relief in the bulkhead and make sure you measure the depth too. Don;t forget to leave enough space for cooling. If its a tight fit the box will run hot and especially with autoboxes this can bring early death.
Ignore people who said they did that swap years ago and it was easy. They have forgotten the pain and all the weird bits that they had to do to make it work!
Fuel delivery will be an isue if you go from say a 803cc A series in a Minor to a small block Chevy! Don't forget to fit bigger bore fuel lines or you will get starvation.
Don't forget that big engine smake big torque and this will give a torque reaction through the body, causing it to twist. Look at reinforcement if necessary. I have heard of some brit saloons fitted with yank engines where the rear doors pop open if you give it full chat...
Remember everything else is bigger with a bigger engine. You'll need a bigger battery, bigger radiator, larger hoses, bigger brakes, bigger servo, bigger alternator, etc etc etc. Make sure you have space for all this before you start. Mark Steilow recommends mocking up all your parts in polystyrene blocks to get the shapes and sizes you need for all the bits and bobs.
Weight, weight distribution, spring rates, etc. A straight six engine weighing 400 lbs has more nose weight in the same car than a 400lb V6 engine (assuming the trans does not move). This will affect your steering geometry and chosen spring and shock rates to make it work.
The favourite things to get in the way are steering racks/columns/boxes. check that everything will fit and has room to move as it needs to. You may get away with lowering the rack on spacers but watch for introduction of bump steer and other unwanted characteristics when hacking the steering / suspension about to fit the motor.
Remember that motors move - especially the big torquey ones. allow plenty of rock space for it to move side to side on its mounts without hitting anything - like a steering column or master cylinder. Again, been there done that...
bigger engine makes more heat, in a tight engine bay you may need to look at other cooling rather than just the rad and fan. Louvred bonnets don't just look the business... But beware they will let water on the motor when it rains heavily or when you wash it. So protect (or move) any electrical bits you can. Also be aware you will possibly get steam on heavy rainy days with a hot motor!
Don;t forget stuff like the heater. You may not need a full spec heater but somethig to demist the screen at least is a definite must in our climate in an older car. Maybe the stock heater and fan will be OK but will all the ducting still work or did you have to chop it oiut to get that monster motor in there?
Theres loads to think about.
King amongst these is "will anyone insure me to drive this once its done"
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Last Edit: Sept 22, 2006 11:20:37 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Sept 22, 2006 11:33:11 GMT
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Great thread. My Sierra V8 is a bit of a cheat, and its been done using magnum engineering fittings. they apparently needed further engineering. Standard Cossie prop and gearbox has been used, so the Rover engine is not stuffed right back in the bay, it sits nice and is lighter than the original pinto set up, making springs sky high! Although its a cheat so to speak, i have still done home work to finish it off exhaust and the Rad has been measured up. I just need £300 quid for it and a bunch of trendy custom hoses or chopped Rover items! I learned a lot of ' i wish i'd never seen this thing' working on my old dopey Crapi, undoing bad work is always a backward step before you start, welded the DIY mounts back in that had been chopped about, and realised it was still far from ideal, also had to get hydraulic clutch for the Rover box in that. I'm not the best person to ask but i have got stuck in to a certain extent!
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Reality check: Engine swaps.Robinxr4i
@robinxr4i
Club Retro Rides Member 143
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Sept 22, 2006 11:34:19 GMT
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Totally engine swaps are hardcore stuff. I remember helping my mate convert his XR2i to run an RS turbo lump, (same engine mounts I grant you) but a hell of a lot of work involved engine management is a bloody nightmare!
Anyone who put a Bike engine on a fiat 126 or a V8 in a carpi, deserves respect.
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Sierra - here we go again! He has an illness, it's not his fault.
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Sept 22, 2006 11:39:05 GMT
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Two words scare the hell out of me,.. Wiring Loom.
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Sept 22, 2006 11:41:55 GMT
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Ah yeah, I forgot "kits" to swap motors that turn out to be as much work (or more!) than if you just made all the bits up yourself in the first place! Funny how that comes to mind when you say "Magnum Engineering". Know of a few people now who have tried their kit and found it to require some more work to get it to work out than they thought when they started out...
If it was easy it wouldn't be cool. And everybody would be at it.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Sept 22, 2006 11:45:16 GMT
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Yeah, I am plantin a 4age out of a AE86 Corolla into a KE70 Corolla and was told that the floor pan and stuff is the same and everything just 'bolts' over. Well let me tell you now, it dosent! So just double check everything you hear read aswell. but this is my first proper engine swap that requires a bit of thought but I am having fun and I would say the main this is to not rush and take your time!
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Sept 22, 2006 11:46:56 GMT
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If it was easy it wouldn't be cool. And everybody would be at it. That sums it up nicely.
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Peugeot 307sw - Suzuki SV650S - MX5.
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,537
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Sept 22, 2006 11:49:00 GMT
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The swaps I've done are all of the upgrade of a similar type of engine. 1098 into A35, 1798 into 1622 Farina, Spit 1500 into 1200 Herald. They all needed bits swapped over (front/back plates etc) and the B series swap needed machining and other parts too to mate it to the standard box. I'm not sure if exhausts have been mentioned yet? Even with my so called "bolt in" swaps I have had to do some fabricating of exhaust as the engines weren't fitted into those cars and there's not point restricting the performance of the bigger engine by sticking the smaller engined manifolds and pipework on. I do think that some total engine swaps could actually be relatively easy if the car is of a race kind of style and you're not worrying about all the pleasantries. The mid bike engined Fiat 500 that was pictured recently springs to mind. Remove everything that might be in theway , do the engineering to mate the bits together (I admit, harder to do than it is to say!), job done.
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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Sept 22, 2006 11:52:41 GMT
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I had "Split Eye Rose" round my workshop the other day in his Omega engined Split pick-up. There's a man for which none of the above objections make any difference
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Sept 22, 2006 11:55:10 GMT
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There is the argument that if like for like-ish (different years) is hard enough to do, then there is no reason to shy away from hybrid swaps.. But thats the sort of trite statement someone that hasn't done an engine swap might trot out.
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Sept 22, 2006 11:58:10 GMT
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The biggest problem I've encountered with a Vauxhall-to-Vauxhall swap was a miss-match between the engine loom and car loom. That was a MK2 Astra XE into a Mk3 Cavalier SRi.
Other issues I've encountered include, throttle cables differing in length and fitting, battery cables not being long enough (starter motor cable for example), water hoses being different, exhaust manifolds not meeting existing systems, induction tubing being too long and old oil coolers that can't be removed without destruction.
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Sept 22, 2006 12:04:32 GMT
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as ive just swapped motors from a 1200 to a 1300 in the scud (easy) its all the niggley things what do my head in for instance throttle cable to short having to re route the water system becouse of the "works" manifold etc etc etc but what ive found on lots of engine swaps is preparation works best ie why bother with old rusty 13mm nuts just buy new they save you lots of p1ss1ng about keep everything clean n tidy do one job at a time like sort the fueling one day the exhuast the next oh and one last thing lots of wd40 hose clips zip ties n lastly lots of cups of tea
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Sept 22, 2006 12:35:16 GMT
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Only ever "done" a like for like swap, which really involved me sorting out swapping ancillaries from old engine to new engine, in between my bro removing the old one and fitting the new one! That's what gets me.... I don't know where to start, whereas Spacekadett makes everything look like a Lego Duplo kit. "I'll just swap that 1200 for a CIH".... "Fed up with the CIH, I'll stick an SRi 130 8V in".... "I've sold that Sidevalve, better stick a Pinto and Type-9 in the 100E...." Yeah, just fab a new bulkhead, modify anti-roll bars / mounts, fab up some engine mounts, make an exhaust manifold.... Sorry I can't be more useful! ;D Still, I'll be swapping out the x-flow in the Escort fairly soon... wish me luck....
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My fleet: Suzuki GSX-R600Y SRAD with bald, melted tyres A borrowed Mondeo
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Sept 22, 2006 12:38:51 GMT
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Reality is..., life gets in the way, you've got less time that you'd like, and the weather hates you!
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The lurker formerly known as Cappuccinocruiser.. or wedgedout..
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Reality check: Engine swaps.BenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Sept 22, 2006 12:47:00 GMT
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I think planning is most definitely key, as it is in any job. Personally, I've only ever taken engines out of cars (loads easier!) and put the same or similar ones back in. Having a complete donor vehicle rather than just the engine / box makes thinks ten times easier - I've had to source loads of peripheral bits for my V8 such as the ignition module, because they were left behind in the donor vehicles engine bay.
Another consideration is the rear axle - will it handle the torque? An engine with twice the torque is going to seriously stress the drivetrain! And if it's a hybrid transplant, the propshaft will need adaptation aswell - not something I'd like to try and do myself, with all the balancing etc. As for wiring, I'm not that afraid of doing older stuff - the electrics are fairly rudimentary in a lot of old cars (but can still cause headaches!). But splicing in a modern engine loom with ECU and all that sort of jiggery-pokery into a mid-80s car would be a serious nighmare I'd imagine.
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Sept 22, 2006 12:54:02 GMT
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Mine was planned very well, what I didn't plan for was more ill health, and the problems I'd get with pissy little things. Also didn't plan to take over a local car club (btw Hotwire, I salute you for the whole RR thing now more so than ever!) or that I'd end up doing the finishing bits in curse word poor weather, outside my house. Oh well, nearly there
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The lurker formerly known as Cappuccinocruiser.. or wedgedout..
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Reality check: Engine swaps.BenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Sept 22, 2006 13:06:21 GMT
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Yes, the biggest problem with any engine swap is life getting in the way! I know what you mean there... Oh, also... best to start with a tested, running engine. I didn't. If I had, I could have spent what little time I did have shoe-horning the engine into the car rather than taking it to bits and rebuilding it
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Last Edit: Sept 22, 2006 13:10:19 GMT by BenzBoy
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Sept 22, 2006 14:07:58 GMT
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i plan to swap just swap an 1100 dor an 1100 od the same thats confusing enough for me, i started removing the 1100 out my spare mk1 fiesta and got completly fed up and its still there, mainly because i have a limited range of spanners and don't have a clue what I'm doing
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once again rocking with 1117cc and 4 gears!
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