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I have only just come across your epic/marathon restoration project and can only say that I admire your determination; also your breadth of knowledge in beig able to tackle so many different aspects of areas requiring restoration.
I don't know whether I may have missed one particular method of assisting the removal of bolts/studs, which are proving somewhat stubborn, but have you considered the use of induction coil heating at all?
I don't have any experience of this method but from information available of the Internet, it would appear to be an excellent method of applying heat to localised/individual bolts, etc...
Just a thought and carry on with the good work.
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Aug 26, 2019 21:03:13 GMT
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foxy have you come accross the nitric acid trick? it will disolve the steel bolt and not damage the alumimium.
Dan
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Aug 28, 2019 22:29:50 GMT
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Hi guys. Not been in for a while and it's weird when you do pop in to find a few very recent posts. Well I did get another holesaw. But first a slight digression... As a kid watching Roadrunner and seeing the Coyote fail every time with his attempts to catch/kill him I used to think 'but that method nearly worked why doesn't he try it again but this time make sure blah blah blah'. Well as I near 50 years old I'm getting a bit like the Coyote thinking 'fk that. what a stupid idea' and moving on to next plan. So buying another holesaw is a bit of a positive thing to do lol. It's a 15mm this time and hey it fits neatly over the stud. I've already cut the business end off it and welded it to my tube and it seems pretty straight. There was no easy way to do this without getting whatever I was using to support the two bits during welding but it's came out ok I think. I also read that for drilling aluminium slow is best so I guess the next step is to try it out. It was a couple of weeks ago I made the thing up and am right next to the VDP nearly every day just now as I'm making some wooden doors (for a customer job) but as I'm so dubious about it being a success I'm putting it off until the doors are out the way and I've only got the studs to focus on.    making an old rotten door into a smaller solid one. VDP is used for leaning wood on
Oh and I did try another thing which is 'guaranteed' to work and didn't: I may have mentioned it before but I saw a YouTube video where some guys hooked up a battery to some stubborn studs and they glowed red hot and came out. There were many detractors' comments on the vid' saying the battery could explode and stuff so I made sure the area was clear and safe, put a big piece of ply over the (newly-charged) battery and connected up the leads to two studs expecting all hell to break loose. Nothing happened. Not even a glow. Nothing. So what went wrong? Do I need super-thick cables and a truck battery perhaps? Do I spend another £60/£80/£100/£150 searching those out new or 2nd hand? Or do I persevere with the holesaw idea? I've made the tool now so might as well try it then it could be hunting down industrial-grade jump leads and a monster battery |
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Last Edit: Aug 28, 2019 23:13:08 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Aug 28, 2019 22:31:34 GMT
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I don't know whether I may have missed one particular method of assisting the removal of bolts/studs, which are proving somewhat stubborn, but have you considered the use of induction coil heating at all? thanks for the suggestion norfolkshire and it certainly seemed to work for Ed China but I think they are extremely expensive  |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Aug 28, 2019 22:39:56 GMT
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foxy have you come accross the nitric acid trick? it will disolve the steel bolt and not damage the alumimium. Dan Hi logicaluk. I did mess about with acids and stuff (on some smaller problems - like Honda 50 head) but the problem is always getting the solution where so want it. One of the chemical was Alum and it does dissolve steel but only when heated. Like I put a bolt in slow-cooker full of alum dissolved in water and it works but getting the block into a tub that I can heat up isn't really viable. Having said that if/when I do get the block out the car and suspend it in a tank of boiling water if would probably be enough to remove the studs with a spanner. I say this because getting oil-seals out of alloy motorcycle legs is almost impossible cold but just dipping them in boiling water makes it a breeze so would probably work same for removing studs/bolts. I tried battery acid on my Honda exhaust studs and it was very hard to keep the solution on the offending item and the alloy did get a little upset. Not sure if Nitric would be much different |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Aug 28, 2019 22:44:10 GMT
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Oh and I did try another thing which is 'guaranteed' to work and didn't: I may have mentioned it before but I saw a YouTube video where some guys hooked up a battery to some stubborn studs and they glowed red hot and came out. There were many detractors' comments on the vid' saying the battery could explode and stuff so I made sure the area was clear and safe, put a big piece of ply over the (newly-charged) battery and connected up the leads to two studs expecting all hell to break loose. Nothing happened. Not even a glow. Nothing. So what went wrong? Do I need super-thick cables and a truck battery perhaps? Do I spend another £60/£80/£100/£150 searching those out new or 2nd hand? Or do I persevere with the holesaw idea? Perhaps a large arc welder with a large welding rod fitted. If you get it to stick (If you know the way arc welders like to stick when starting a weld) to the stud It might get a bit of heat into it, sounds similar to your method just without the sacrificing of batteries (given their cost..). |
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1951 Ferguson TED 20 / 1988 Ford Sierra Sapphire 2.0
1990 Isuzu Bighorn 2.8 Irmscher R / 1991 Pajero 2.5 SWB
1991 Vauxhall Carlton GSI3000 / 1991 Toyota Corolla van 2.2TD
1992 Toyota Corolla 1.6 GTI / 93 Ford Granada Scorpio Cosworth
1994 Toyota Corolla GXI / 1995 Toyota Corolla 1.6 Si
1995 Nissan Vanette / 1997 Toyota Starlet 1.5td Glanza
1997 Toyota Carina E saloon / 1998 Toyota Carina 2.0 Exeuctive
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Sept 3, 2019 15:13:14 GMT
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Well that was a waste of time  and not even got any pics to illustrate  What am I on about? Well I said I was working up to trying out holesaw #3, but was waiting till I'd finished making some doors as I am just about at my limit with failure and stress of work. Well last night after doing a bit on the doors and tidying up I thought 'hey why not give the holesaw a go and be a legend...' Got the extension cable, drill and extremely sensitive inspection lamp out and predictably me welding on the tube/cutter is not completely straight so there was a bit of non-concentric spinning when I blipped the drill but pressed on anyway. Wow straight away some encouraging slithers of alloy appeared so I think 'Godssake why didn't I do this weeks ago? Of course it works' and almost before the thought had formed things stopped happening. No mother slithers. Stopped to rake out hole with a small file and inspect closer with lamp then tried several more times but could feel nothing was happening. Had a look at the 'saw' and all the teeth have cracked off. No I don't get it either   but let's just say I could be bothered re-making the tool I'd need to do it maybe 12 times for each of the 5 studs so that's like 60 holesaw contraptions. Nah curse word it not going to happen so next step will need to be brand-new big battery and I found some very heavy jump leads the other day so will give the battery thing a go then abandon the project for another 5 years or so |
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Last Edit: Sept 4, 2019 13:47:07 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Sept 4, 2019 13:46:13 GMT
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Musings of an a*****ole....
I remember many years ago when I bought my first welder there was something in the instruction-booklet about hard-facing of digger shovels.
And!? you say
Well 'weld' is hard and I need hard points on my mini-holesaw that wouln't break off (still don't get that!) so am thinking can weld some blobs onto the teeth then file them to points and try again. Even if I get to bottom of one of the studs it will show whether or not the idea is worthwhile.
So am off to the barn this afternoon and mb give it a try. Then again might just stay in and watch tv. It's less disappointing
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Sept 5, 2019 16:02:04 GMT
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It didn't lol. I ended up working on the exhaust studs of an XJR1300 that are also stuck solid (5 years now) and no luck there. However am off to the barn for more punishment right now so there may be an update late tonight. |
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Sept 5, 2019 19:02:58 GMT
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oooh goodie .well done for sticking at it .
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Well I made some progress...
After a few hours working on the wooden doors I'm repairing I moved to the XJR. One of the studs I was working on last night - ie striking with a chisel onto a weld blob on the side of it - moved! but it didn't move like it should. It has sheared off about 2mm below the surface of the head.
How is that progress? well the next one which is the worst one - literally like a rusted twiglet - which hadn't had any blob-tapping moved but properly as in it wound right out. A minor miracle. I've been trying to get these studs out for about 5 years and that's 3 done. 2 were replaced by someone else years ago and are ok so have really just got 3 more to shift. No pics am afraid but the point is when you feel like there is no hope sometimes you get a little lift.
So as I had the welder out I turned to the holesaw tool. I put a copper tube inside it (weld doesn't stick to copper) so that I wouldn't be trying to file excess weld off the inside when forming the teeth and put a couple of blobs on. I then sharpened the blobs and went back to drilling. No encouraging spirals of swarf appeared but I think something is happening. The new 'teeth' seem to be surviving but strangely what was left of the old ones seem to still be breaking off. I really don't understand why the steel tool is taking such a battering from the alloy block.
Anyway I will persevere with this. The partial success with the XJR has bouyed my enthusiasm
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,883
Club RR Member Number: 39
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With no success on the bolts I was at least looking forward to seeing a nice reclaimed finished wooden door  If you have an ohmmeter check the resistance between the bolts and the block - for the battery method to do anything you will need an electrical short circuit for it to work - If you have a high resistance due to all the corrosion creating some sort of insulating barrier then it will never work - you need Watts and lots of them and Watts = VxI and I = V/R so lets say you have a silly high 3 ohm resistance - 12/3 = 4 ohms - 4 x 12 = 48 watts a old lightbulb Now if we have a more reasonable 0.1 ohm resistance 12 /0.1 =120 120x12 = 1.4KW - now we are cooking - that's the same power as a starter motor - 0.05 ohm and we double it up 2.8KW but there we are reaching the max draw on the battery before we start damaging the plates. So simple test with a meter will tell you if the battery trick will make any progress for you. |
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Sept 6, 2019 11:27:09 GMT
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With no success on the bolts I was at least looking forward to seeing a nice reclaimed finished wooden door If you have an ohmmeter check the resistance between the bolts and the block - for the battery method to do anything you will need an electrical short circuit for it to work - If you have a high resistance due to all the corrosion creating some sort of insulating barrier then it will never work - you need Watts and lots of them and Watts = VxI and I = V/R so lets say you have a silly high 3 ohm resistance - 12/3 = 4 ohms - 4 x 12 = 48 watts a old lightbulb Now if we have a more reasonable 0.1 ohm resistance 12 /0.1 =120 120x12 = 1.4KW - now we are cooking - that's the same power as a starter motor - 0.05 ohm and we double it up 2.8KW but there we are reaching the max draw on the battery before we start damaging the plates. So simple test with a meter will tell you if the battery trick will make any progress for you. Wow. Now that is interesting. I'd have never thought of that or been able to work it out so thanks and I'll let you know how I get on. As for the doors. I have no current pics as my 9th(?) camera has broken. I mainly clean gutters and do roof repairs for a living and the cameras break quickly due to grit getting in. Last one fell out my pocket and slid off the roof lol. The doors are are coming on nicely tho. I have 4 on the go. 2 for a customer's job, on a 123 year old staircase, and the others for my own lock-up.  part way thru repairs to staircase. doors have been missing for a looong time
  1st door was made last winter with part new/part old wood
 fitting it is not easy as no straight surfaces on staircase as it has moved so much since it was built. biggest problem is wall at closing-edge of door. bottom is several inches further in than top starting point for next door (which is very rotten at bottom). take it all apart then sand and undercoat the solid parts
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Last Edit: Sept 6, 2019 11:29:39 GMT by foxy99
1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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Sept 6, 2019 20:14:03 GMT
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Watts = VxI and I = V/R so lets say you have a silly high 3 ohm resistance - 12/3 = 4 ohms - 4 x 12 = 48 watts a old lightbulb Now if we have a more reasonable 0.1 ohm resistance 12 /0.1 =120 120x12 = 1.4KW - now we are cooking - that's the same power as a starter motor - 0.05 ohm and we double it up 2.8KW but there we are reaching the max draw on the battery before we start damaging the plates. Just reading this now that I have more time. This is my understanding of it (without Googling) so correct me if I'm wrong. I did Physics at school but that was a while ago lol. - Watts = V x I: Watts = Voltage x Current. Think you can also say P = IV and I remembered that as PIV
- I = V/R: Current = Volts divided by Resistance
- 12 Volts divided by 3 Ohms = 4 Amps
- back to PIV or I x V = W.... 4A x 12V = 48W (about same as an old low wattage bulb)
- so if we have high resistance (even though it sounds very low) nothing will happen as I'd only be putting about 48 Watts thru the studs
- if resistance is low we'll get a lot more power out the 12V battery because 12V over a 0.1 ohm resistance would give 120 Amps and 120 amps from a 12V battery would be like putting 1.4KW thru the studs. Bit hotter?
- If the resistance was even lower we could be getting something like 2.8KW thru it
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,883
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Sept 6, 2019 20:36:57 GMT
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Pretty much - there are other factors to consider like the internal resistance of the battery - voltage getting pulled down due to the current flow which would mean probably only 10-11V when fully loaded but playing fast and loose with the figures that's where we are. We all know (or we should owning old cars) that when electrical connections get all rusty things don't work. The down side that you will come across when measuring the resistance is that there may be a tiny sliver of steel making a decent enough connection to give you a nice low resistance reading - However, said sliver will not be good enough to deliver any sort of current flow so a method of test would be to get a decent 55 watt headlamp bulb and place that in series with the head stud to see if the stud is capable of at least being a decent enough conductor to fully light the bulb. ETA - Nice work on the door  |
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Last Edit: Sept 6, 2019 20:51:36 GMT by Darkspeed
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foxy99
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,456
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not much of an update am afraid but I found out why the holesaw isn't cutting it....
the teeth that broke off the 15mm holesaw are stuck in the alloy so any subsequent action is just running over the broken teeth instead of cutting the alloy.
I guess the next thing to try would be one of those tungsten(?) carbide(?) tile-cutting holesaws to get past the teeth. what a palaver
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1974 Daimler Double-Six VDP
1965/67 Hillman Imp pick-up
1984 VW Polo breadvan
1970s Yamaha Twins (4)
1976 Honda SS50ZK1
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,883
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Sorry if this is teaching Granny to suck eggs.
Alloy with a hole saw whatever the teeth will be a PITA as once in up to the depth of the teeth the swarf created cannot be cleared and the hole saw will clog and just drag, melting the alloy making sticking to the teeth - Typically you have to go through a mm at a time - cleaning out the hole and the teeth of the cutter as you go. Alloy and Ceramic require polar opposites in respect to cutting tools - Alloy = Coarse and Ceramic = Very fine. For alloy you would want something with 4 teeth.
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gt
Part of things
Posts: 136
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was your hole a decent brand, we used to use starrett hole saws cutting and mitering steel and they would last ages before they needed replacing.
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Sept 7, 2019 11:53:25 GMT
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Probably not constructive, but is there any reason why you are persisting with this old lump? Seems like it would be better used as an artificial reef, and your time/mojo balance spent getting something that's known to run fitted.
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and not even got any pics to illustrate 
but let's just say I could be bothered re-making the tool I'd need to do it maybe 12 times for each of the 5 studs so that's like 60 holesaw contraptions. Nah curse word it not going to happen so next step will need to be brand-new big battery and I found some very heavy jump leads the other day so will give the battery thing a go then abandon the project for another 5 years or so 
