RobinJI
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"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Right, after an incident driving home last night, I've gone out to the car this afternoon to see what the damage is, and upon taking the rocker cover off, the oil around the camshaft has turned into a hard plastic, and I don't mean it's gone gooey, it's literally, a hard, dry plastic. I've never seen or heard of anything like it before.
The level still reads ok with liquid oil on the dip stick, but there's a fair amount of deposits of this hard plastic, and zero liquid oil around the camshaft.
I've taken a few pictures, but can't get them off my camera until I go back to uni on Monday as I've left my cable up there.
On the drive home last night there was a loud tapping sound from the engine, followed immediately by a lack of power, then the engine stopped dead and wouldn't budge, and steam billowed out of everywhere possible.
Oh yeah, and the oil's around 700 mile old Halfords semi-synthetic 10/40 diesel oil, and the engine it's in is a 1.6td VW engine (SB code from a B3 passat)
The camshaft wont turn, because it's locked solid with this plastic/oil stuff, and the crankshaft will turn about 1 deg, and won't budge any-more than that, so both the top and bottom end seem seized in place at the moment.
Now I'm pretty sure this is terminal, because even if the plasticy stuff can be removed, it's pretty clear that the engine's not received any real lubrication in the top end, and I'd have thought the bottom end too. But I'm curious as to how and why this can even happen??!?
So yeah, anyone's experiences would be interesting.
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I know a mates VW needs "special" oil - I was told any VW motors after approx 2000 can't use your normal oils. 2 minutes on Google found a few mentions, you might want to see below from www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=59137"I read here and on the VW official bulletin that the standard is a PD approved 5W40 and not the above, would the fact that the dealer used it with 10W40 can do any harm? or should we change the oil now to 5W40 before we start driving it?" Hope you get it sorted, would like to know if you find what caused it.
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Last Edit: Oct 1, 2011 14:08:18 GMT by nomad
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I very much doubt engine oil can turn into plastic, i'm not familiar with vw engines, but i'd guess there's some form of plastic splash shield or something under the rocker cover which has melted beacuse of overheating, which also seized the engine. Plastic wouldn't be able to form around the camshaft when the engine is spinning anyway I had a breather cap melt and end up inside the rocker cover on a half-past dead pinto in a sierra once ;D
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Last Edit: Oct 1, 2011 17:08:14 GMT by dude
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Nomad: In the PD engine there is an individual high pressure fuel pump for each injector. This is driven by the camshaft, and the forces are so incredibly high that most oils can't cope with the result that the cam lobes and followers for the pump get damaged. This engine is not a PD engine so that's not the problem here. Even if it was a PD with the wrong oil, it's unlikely to cause the symptoms here. Robin, did you have a temperature gauge connected? If so did you notice what it was reading before and after the loss of power? There's a bit on Sludge in oil here: www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.htmlBut it doesn't sound as though that's what you're seeing. My thoughts are that it went something like this: - Loss of coolant - Engine starts to run extremely hot, especially in the cylinder head - Oil burns and bakes into hard substance - Engine stops I would imagine that the oil feed drilling in the head is full with the same stuff as the cam area. That would stop the oil flow to the cams, causing tapping noises - especially if that engine uses hydraulic tappets. Another possibility is that the deposits cause the camshaft to partially seize, the belt to jump a few teeth, and the tapping noise was the valves and pistons colliding. TBH, with a locked camshaft I wouldn't expect the engine to be able to turn more than a degree or so. I wouldn't be surprised if the bottom end was ok - if it were seized I wouldn't expect to be able to turn it at all. Either way, I don't think you'll find out much more without taking the head off.
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It's not oil, its carbon that's escaped from your leaking injector seals. I've seen it loads of times in mercs and its made me a pretty penny because most garages won't touch it and just replace the cylinder head rather than clean it off. Google Mercedes sprinter black death for more info.
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R.S. Autotech. Servicing/Repairs/Diagnostics.
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RobinJI
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"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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... Lots of James's usual, knowledgeable info... The gauge wasn't connected yet, well it was connected, but the sender and gauge didn't match, so the readings were irrelevant, so no, I don't know what the temperature was doing unfortunately. There was plenty of water in it at the start of the drive, and I've done the same drive twice at higher speeds than I was doing, as well as plenty of sitting stationary in heavy traffic, so the cooling system was working fine before this drive. I think the stuff on the camshaft is as Dude says, a very melted splash guard rather than anything to do with the oil. I meant to say, when I say the bottom end wont budge more than a degree or 2, that's with the cambelt off, so it's not trying to turn the camshaft too, it is literally 1 deg of movement, it's just a tiny rock, which in my mind could be play in the bearings if it's lost oil pressure and a pistons melted/seized to one of the bores. I checked the timing marks and they were all still in line, and the belt looked fine, as like you said, I was suspicious that the camshaft might have caused it to slip. The head does look completely bone dry and oil-free, and the cam lobes look like they've run dry, which would suggest that it was lacking oil before I stopped. My thoughts/guesses at this moment are: Option 1, the head gasket went, causing the engine to overheat and seize, but this wouldn't really explain the tapping noise. Option 2, the oil-pump went, causing the engine to overheat and seize, popping the head gasket in the process, this would explain the tapping, as the lack of pressure would cause the tappets to get very noisy, and would explain the complete lack of oil in the head. I'm not an expert on this stuff by any means though, I've never had big engine issues like this in the past. Edit: Rev. Dick Deluxe, I don't see how leaking injector seals could have got carbon inside the cam assembly? I'd be interested to hear more, though, I'm googling the black death thing now.
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Last Edit: Oct 1, 2011 15:56:16 GMT by RobinJI
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It's not one of those with the injectors under the rocker cover then? It definitely sounds like carbon build up to me though. Pics would be a great help in this situation.
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R.S. Autotech. Servicing/Repairs/Diagnostics.
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Even if your going to replace the engine which seems pretty likely. It would be very interesting to strip it down and see whats happened.
Ive seen a car come into the garage complaining of a seized engine and that had a sump full of jelly. Owner said he had had it 20years and not once changed the oil!
As others have said I reckon the hard stuff on your camshaft is a plastic guard or similar that has got so hot it has melted.
Did you not get any funny smells or anything before it happened id expect to be able to smell an engine thats got that hot
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
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Russ
Part of things
Posts: 372
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Cheers Russ, yeah, that's done the same thing, only mines a whole lot messier than that, and his cams look like they've actually seen oil recently.
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sounds like massive overheating to me they can get mightly hot especially when on boost an high exhaust temps, if you get stuck for replacing the engine with another gtd or azz etc, id consider getting a cheap n/a diesel engine and swap your sump, turbo, injectors and pump etc on to that, they are the same compression ratio and only lack a few things like oil squirters under the pistons, cant see if making a massive differecne tbh and everything from the gtd will bolt straight on.
I'm keeping my old n/a block and head precisely for that reason.
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Running on cooking oil by any chance? If so google 'polymerisation'
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Cool, thanks. It's looking like I've hopefully sorted a replacement car for the time being, as I simply can't afford the time or money to fix this right now. However, the replacement car is a 1.6td passat, so can and may eventually give up it's engine for the Scirocco, but the main thing is I'll have an economical car to get around in for the time being.
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Nissan Laurel SOLD BMW E34 Diesel SOLD Toyota Soarer 4.0 V8 SOLD Audi A4 1995 TDI SOLD Peugeot 205 1.9 TD SOLD Lexus IS300 SC
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lol, its doesnt sound like carbon or polymerisation, its just the plastic oil splash guard under the rocker cover that has melted due to excess heat ie this thing.
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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lol, its doesnt sound like carbon or polymerisation, its just the plastic oil splash guard under the rocker cover that has melted due to excess heat ie this thing. Yep, what he said ^ as soon as Dude said it I realised that must be what it is. I'm currently in the process of moving the Scirocco to somewhere for it to be stored, and sorting out a replacement daily, that will become the donor for the Scirocco's replacement engine when I have time/money to swap it.
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