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Jul 25, 2006 10:34:40 GMT
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Cars are not a good "investment" As Nick Mason said,.. in the early 80's he was an eccentric who bought old Ferraris... in the late 80's he was a wise investor when the prices went through the roof. Then when everything crashed again he was an eccentric again...
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bryn
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,913
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Jul 25, 2006 10:42:44 GMT
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The whole surf lifestyle thing in this country used to grip my sh*t when it came to VW's. I've been surfing for about twenty years now, and in that time the only thing that's been a true 'surf' vehicle was something that could get you to the beach cheap, with mates and boards. That has been anything from an Austin 1100 estate, Dyane, Maestro Clubman, Maxi (great for sleeping in) and now it's generally anything diesel and van shaped, Escort then. 30-40mpg, bought for a few hundred quid...
But I've realised that if people want to pay a premium to have something that has a label attached to it, so that they'll happily pay 12-20K for a split, let them... Because the rest of us have moved on. If they feel it's worth it, then sadly they may have missed out in the first place. Either that or be so blinkered as to the alternatives, they can't open their eyes and therefore deserve to have to pay a premium.
This might sound pretentious, but it raises a smile when I see these prices, like I said elsewhere I was glad to have had them when they were cheap and cheerful. But as far as driving a split goes, unless you spend £££ on drivetrain upgrades, you can keep it pal. T2s are pretty sheite too, T3s are still reasonable money if you look hard, but when you can buy a T4 for the same money, why bother?
Just do what makes you happy and spend what you can afford. Like I've often been heard to say, there's no need to spend more than 1k on any vehicle for any purpose and still have fun.
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Volvo, Buggy, Discovery and an old tractor.
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Jul 25, 2006 10:42:56 GMT
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I don't see my hoby as an investment and never will I earn my money doing something else, and claw back SOME of the money I spend by selling off the bits I don't use anymore, such as engines, carbs, trim etc. I've been waiting for the prices of vans to "stabilise" and even drop for years... 'snot happening any time soon I don't think
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The lurker formerly known as Cappuccinocruiser.. or wedgedout..
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Jul 25, 2006 10:45:21 GMT
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3s are still reasonable money if you look hard, but when you can buy a T4 for the same money, why bother? Cos I don't like the way they drive , I tried one and thought the ride was too harsh for my tastes, and it felt very "van" as most T3/T25 owners will tell you, they feel very "car" like
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The lurker formerly known as Cappuccinocruiser.. or wedgedout..
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Jul 25, 2006 10:46:08 GMT
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I think I used 'Cool' too loosely again! I'd imagine someone who actually is quite cool, or not to buy a wedge cos they like em and/or need a tool for their hobby. Some one wanting to be cool, or really despirately liking old VW's (which is fair enough) to buy a splitty, I do like em but not that much!
Similarly I had my heart set on a street racer minimalist Mk1 Escort, but surely the Sierra will do a better job, i just wont have as much 'classic ford scene respect' which i don't care about as i have never been in a scene, and for the money the Sierra dream is more likely to become a reality.
Loads of great kit out there, just need to think outside the box
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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street
Posted a lot
6.2 ft/lbs of talk
Posts: 4,662
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Jul 25, 2006 10:48:03 GMT
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As Nick Mason said,.. in the early 80's he was an eccentric who bought old Ferraris... in the late 80's he was a wise investor when the prices went through the roof. Then when everything crashed again he was an eccentric again... Heheh, like that ;D I definately think now is the time to take an unlikely camper like the Hiace as already mentioned, add all the right ingredients, and then parade it around the coastal towns, mixing it up with the splitties. So much cooler IMO* Starting to take a long hard look at the Vauxhall Midi thats sat outside doing nothing at the moment.......... *although I am trying to negotiate getting hold of a splittie thats residing in someones garden as we speak!
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Jul 25, 2006 10:48:04 GMT
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Threads like this are dangerous. I've just dropped some dollar on a (non-forklift-battered ) Commer Camper. A compromise, yes, but a 'different' compromise at least. Have ten pints of cider and squint a bit and they almost look like a VW. I'll tell you what REALLY scares me though.... when I get home to find the missus leafing through the classifieds in Volksworld... then she gives me THAT look.... Perhaps its luck that they are now SO unobtainable ;D
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Jul 25, 2006 10:53:27 GMT
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Starting to take a long hard look at the Vauxhall Midi thats sat outside doing nothing at the moment.......... These are too cool for school,.. do it, do it!
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Jul 25, 2006 10:58:48 GMT
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'nother thing is nowadays people don't seem scared to borrow money to buy what they want. I know/know of young lads who don't earn half what I do and they are driving £15K new/ish cars. The same thing seems to transfer to classics and any other consumer product as well. Theres status to think about after all... Used to be the first question I'd get asked about an old car by a guy in the street would be "how do you get bits for it" or "is it fast" or "did you do the work yourself" but now the first question is more likely to be "how much is that worth" or "what did you pay for that then?" etc.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jul 25, 2006 11:00:52 GMT
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one of the gang we were camped with had a T4 van... and he is a surfer. it's a bog standard, white, standard height, rust spots, genuine van that just happened to be the cheapest reliable van around when he was looking. definately not a 'scene' bus.
you can tell the ones that have bought a VW bus for the scene cos the surfboards will spend 95% of their time on the roof. genuine surfers have escort vans, or an astramax, something you can happily leave in a beach carpark for 8 hours and get full of sand and saltwater. if i'd have spent £15k on a splitty there's no way i'm getting in it's nice metal-clad interior dripping seawater.
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Never trust a man Who names himself Trevor. Or one day you might find He's not a real drug dealer.
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Jul 25, 2006 11:13:21 GMT
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No matter what ‘Avenue’ of vehicle ownership you are into there will always be the ‘fad’/loadsa-money/fashionable vehicle that everyone wants.
e.g.: J-Tin circles it’s recently been the Corolla AE 86 and even more recently the Celica RA28GT
Military vehicle clubs – every one in 2004 and 2005 wanted a WW2 Willys jeep due to the 60 Year WW2 and D-DAY Anniversary but now prices are dropping again.
Ford – MK1 and MK2 Escorts are having a real surge at present, 4 year ago it was Capri’s
The list can go on and on and ...
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bryn
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,913
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Jul 25, 2006 11:14:34 GMT
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[/quote] Cos I don't like the way they drive , I tried one and thought the ride was too harsh for my tastes, and it felt very "van" as most T3/T25 owners will tell you, they feel very "car" like[/quote] The only T3 I had that handled was a lowered empty panel van on Merc steels, I could chuck that around... As for the camper conversions. Joker is the right name for some of them. I guess I'm just getting soft, but a 2.5 Tdi T4 that does 90mph and 40mpg is all good. I don't mind going slow but it's there to do a job for me.
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Volvo, Buggy, Discovery and an old tractor.
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Jul 25, 2006 11:18:18 GMT
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Cos I don't like the way they drive , I tried one and thought the ride was too harsh for my tastes, and it felt very "van" as most T3/T25 owners will tell you, they feel very "car" like[/quote] The only T3 I had that handled was a lowered empty panel van on Merc steels, I could chuck that around... As for the camper conversions. Joker is the right name for some of them. I guess I'm just getting soft, but a 2.5 Tdi T4 that does 90mph and 40mpg is all good. I don't mind going slow but it's there to do a job for me.[/quote] fair comment
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The lurker formerly known as Cappuccinocruiser.. or wedgedout..
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Jul 25, 2006 11:31:52 GMT
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jul 25, 2006 11:52:51 GMT
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Splitties are an iconic representation of a certain lifestyle. As long as there are people who want to live that lifestyle then they will fetch a premium.
The only time demand will change is if: a: A new higher supply icon replaces the existing one b: Fewer people want to live that lifestyle c: The amount people can afford drops
Splitties have become so embedded as a culf object within the surfing and hippy scene it will take a lot to crowbar it out. For instance there's an advert on TV at the moment for a summer dance collection with people on the beach, and although some travel by Freelander there's still a Splitty featured, because the marketers know what it represents.
That representation alone justifies their value. Of course surfers can't afford to use Splitties, or even want to, but if you want people to think a certain way they'll do that.
Beetles have fallen in price for one main reason, and that is because people can buy the Beetle image and portray what it represents in a new form. It's still recognisable, it still says all the same things.
In the case of the Morris Minor that suffered the problem of not being associated with a lifestyle people wanted to live. And thus driving one now just says you own a cheap old car.
The same should be happening with the Mini, why would Jane Wainthrop Jones from London even consider paying 10K for a classic Cooper to complete her new Twiggy look when she can walk into a MINI dealers and buy a brand new one which says all the same things.
I can't see anything replacing the Splitty anytime soon but should VW release a modern version with the same styling then I can see the classic prices plummeting. I however very much doubt a HiAce will knock it from its predastal.
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Jul 25, 2006 12:34:54 GMT
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In the case of the Morris Minor that suffered the problem of not being associated with a lifestyle people wanted to live. And thus driving one now just says you own a cheap old car. I don't think it says that any more now than it did in 1994. The fashion moved around is all. PA Cresta is another one. I remember when there was that last big rockabilly revival they were fetching £10K for a really nice one and a good £5K for a F type Victor. Now you're lucky to get £2K for a F type and £3K - £4K on a PA? That said theres been a resurgeance of interest in the finned cars again and prices are bobbing up a bit as theres another retrorocker thing going on and the fashion will take people back into these cars. Essentially what you say is true though. I think a lot of the reason that the prewar stuff has slipped in value because the people who are most into that sort of thing are like 80 and starting to pop their clogs. People dropping 20 grand on a splitty now - well - whats the demographic? If they are all 20 something or early 30s guys and gals with good jobs and no kids, well, you just need a few of them to start familys, need to buy a 3 bed semi in the burbs and a Zafira and theres a goos cause for supply to increase and unless the next generation wants to emulate them then the demand may not be there. If I could predict these things I'd be a rich man. Things usually get hot hot hot and boil over though from my estimation.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Stu
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,913
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Jul 25, 2006 12:48:39 GMT
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It's all about suppy and demand as said above by someone. The thing I don't like about the VW 'scene' is that now it seems to be about what things cost, everyone you see at shows comes up to you and says 'this cost me £xx k, that cost me £xx k' like it impresses you - it's just boring. Who's bothered about what everything costs? It seems to just be a game of who can boast loudest about how much money they've spent on what looks to the man in the street like a rusty piece of junk that's barely road legal! An example of this is that at a show recently a bloke came up to me and started tell me that the bumpers on my Mk1 Golf would go for £xxx and the chrome door handles for £xxx etc etc. I just said, how nice, I'm not breaking the car, I'm restoring it. I don't know if I'm just getting old and cynical but I don't think VW shows used to be about who'd spent the most on their vehicle did they? I'm not adverse to air-cooled dubs by the way, I like them and my Dad has a load of them including a Splitty but there's no way they are worth the sort of prices people are asking these days. That said, if you can get the money from someone who's bank balance/credit card is bigger than their brain, then why not!
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Last Edit: Jul 25, 2006 12:53:29 GMT by Stu
'89 BMW E30 325i Sport, '04 MINI Cooper S, '09 Volvo V70 D5
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jul 25, 2006 12:57:31 GMT
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I think a lot of the reason that the prewar stuff has slipped in value because the people who are most into that sort of thing are like 80 and starting to pop their clogs. People dropping 20 grand on a splitty now - well - whats the demographic? If they are all 20 something or early 30s guys and gals with good jobs and no kids, well, you just need a few of them to start familys, need to buy a 3 bed semi in the burbs and a Zafira and theres a goos cause for supply to increase and unless the next generation wants to emulate them then the demand may not be there. Yes I totally agree, the generation gap can make or break the values.
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Jul 25, 2006 13:05:50 GMT
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When I bought my Split, the people I bought it off came up with a good reason for the Splittie prices going up... House prices...
Think about it, you have people sitting in houses that they have owned for 10/20/30 years and all of a sudden they have all this equity. One phone call to the bank and they can release potentially tens of thousands of pounds.. They buy a van and get a company to resto it... The vans these days are being resto'ed to such a high standard that some do command the prices, and some are just soo rare (most over used word in the VW scene IMHO ) that they command silly money.
MWF made a interesting point and I reckon a very valid one as well.
The media does have a large part to play in it.
They were in fashion 5 years ago and they still are today, it's going to take something to move the prices on these..
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Jul 25, 2006 14:03:38 GMT
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I've been in the VW scene for f*ck knows how many years, and seen many things come and go.... But I think Split Bus prices are just plain fecking stupid. I would never pay those prices - its an absolute rip off. You can get splitties for far cheaper prices if you hunt around - the key is to look away from the VW scene. For example, I found mine locally and bought it for £150 - Its a 1962 RHD with complete Devon interior. When I bought it had tax, MOT and is solid as a rock. I've racked up 1000's of miles in it with no probs. I've found others too - I found a RHD '58 panel van with 11 months MOT for £800 and passed the details on to a mate who bought it. I also located a RHD '55 Samba in South Africa for £600. Its in the UK now. I've also found a few projects which all went for between £200-£1000. They are out there and I still come across them now and again. Although buses seem to be the 'in' thing at the moment, the general consensus seems to be that Beetles will start to increase their value sooner or later. I've found a few gems lately - Last week, a one owner 1972 1300 model, 28,000 miles from new, original paint, original 28K engine, pretty solid, been dry stored since '86.. £200. Last weekend I went to do a deal on a bug for my girlfriend - its an awesome immaculate never restored '72 1300 beetle, perfect original paint, 55K genuine miles, complete service history inc. bill of sale (original buyer part exchanged an NSU!), MINT interior, dry stored from new - the original owner was an old bloke who worked on the railways and never drove it in the rain! it looks like it only just drove out of the VW dealership! got it for a VERY nice price! Anyway, like I said, they're still out there - you just gotta do a bit of searching away from the VW scene.
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Dig it up, slam it and drive it.
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