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May 22, 2017 20:08:05 GMT
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I got the bug for aloominum panels at the moment, so found another small project to keep up the momentum, another Jaguar wing from an XK120 pictured here, from a random picture off tinternet fibreglass wing as a buck, sectioned up for taking patterns I started with an added degree of difficulty by making this section first, those of you familiar with metalshaping terms, this is a reverse, where two opposing curves are connected, it's probably quicker to make in 2 pieces This is the rear section, malleted into a sandbag to stretch the metal into shape This is the same panel as above, but smoothed out through the Wheel Here is the top of the rear quater, if you look close & see the filing marks, that's where there is a join, running the whole length, gas welded, you can see where the ends are on the left handside This is the welded joint of the front & back sections The blue dye is a guide coat, used to highlight the highs & lows of the panel, I don't use a file as it shaves metal off, but use the long board in the picture with 80g sand paper on it to do the same job as a file, but doesn't remove any metal The complete wing all soothed out Now to put flanges on it, I clamped it over the fibreglass buck to start taking the door shut flange over, annealing would have helped Another piece of wall art
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 21:02:12 GMT
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Thanks Chris,
You never stop learning & being open minded is always a good thing, everybody has their own twist on things, to get the job done, but the fundamentals are always the best starting points, get them wrong & the job goes south very quickly.
Back in the old days, etch primer was king for aluminium, but having tried Epoxy on my AM, I can see the advantages, I'm still a solvent guy, haven't tried waterbased basecoats yet as I've seen them peel off! My paint process btw is, 120g d/a sand bare metal, Epoxy primer applied with a foam roller,no waste, then filler work/blocking, seal filler with Epoxy again, then 2k high build primer to level everything out from 180g-320g, followed by 2 coats of 2k solid colour gloss coat as an undercoat to check reflections & fill any scratches to 800g w&d, as any metallic/pearl basecoat will show scratches left in the prep, then b/c & lacquer to finish. All my prep work is hand blocked, I never use a machine. Finally wet flat lacquer 800-2000, then use 3" polishing heads to finish, this is my method at the moment, if I pick up a new tip, then I'll try it.
I know the above method is probably not commercially viable, but I have no time pressures or profit to consider, so I imagine it's a very different issue for you running a business.
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 18:53:11 GMT
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It's machinery paint, requires no primer, great for machines, but rubbish on cars and no it's not coach enamel acrylic? cellulose? urethane ? oil based ? that was my question It's none of those as I know all of the above base resins & tbh I don't exactly what its base resin Hammerite use that determines it category, as it has it's own thinner that doesn't mix with anything else, I just know as machinery paint that you can't re-coat for months afterwards, never use any Hammerite products on cars is my advice.
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 18:27:08 GMT
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To add to my above post, imo there is no paint that cures rust by painting over it, no anti rust paint with active ingredients otherwise car manufacturers & trade would be using them, the only way to slow down rust is to remove it before you paint it. Lastly never use paints that say they do would be the best advice I would give anybody, rant over
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 18:08:40 GMT
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@grumpynorthener what actually is hammerite ? by that i mean their smooth range (used to be called smoothrite) is it just 1k synth coach enamel ? It's machinery paint, requires no primer, great for machines, but rubbish on cars and no it's not coach enamel
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 18:05:45 GMT
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I'd invest in a property to rent out and spend the proceeds after costs on cars! But you'll have capital gains to pay on it, stamp duty & declare rent as earnings,but nowt to declare on cars as long as you aren't trader
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 18:00:58 GMT
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Hi Chris, Great thread, I'm glad a professional is advising painting matters and putting right the rubbish urban myths about how to paint. I've been on a lot of forums where advice is banded around by amateurs who know a bloke down the pub, who's dad painted a garden gate years a go & his method is the best way to paint a car, blah,blah,blah. and the poor results speak for themselves. By coincidence reading your introduction, it seams we have a familiar history to the motor trade, ie being apprentices, then a career change, then getting back into it. Here's my car I restored a few years a go... Primered with epoxy by roller btw, lol
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 16:52:42 GMT
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I'd go for the 911, even the 996 models are going up in value, I sold mine last year a 2001 C4 Coupe, I made 3k on it in 2 years & drove it every day, there ain't many daily drivers you can do that with. My speculation for a modern classic on a budget is the Audi TT 99-06, especially the V6, better than the 911, imo.
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 16:53:19 GMT by maxakarudy
Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 21, 2017 10:15:52 GMT
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Yes I've seen Nicks work on various forums, he's undoubtedly a very talented designer & metalworker. Lazze, Ron Covell, David Gardener & Peter Tomissinni are internet metalshaping masters & lots of others I could mention, I might start a thread on this forum where you get more information for those interested in improving their metalshaping skills Cheers Martin
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 14:13:26 GMT by maxakarudy
Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 19, 2017 19:14:58 GMT
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Thanks Sunbuilder That's very helpful & a great explanation, I really appreciate the input. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll give the welding a whizz.
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 18, 2017 19:26:56 GMT
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Great work on that wing. Not a criticism but try to practice your ali gas welding as you could have saved yourself a lot of time by not having to file down your tig bead. I think that you will pick it up easily especially if you try those tips of using a nozzle size 1 or 2 too big and then having a soft cone at the flame. Also once you have the ali melting drop the flame angle to nearly flat. The weld will then travel quite quick but you should be able to keep going as long a weld as you want without distortion.Do you flux the material and rod by mixing the flux with water and painting it on then drying it on with the flame. Always use a fresh mix. Whilst welding you can also sort of cool down the weld pool by using a bit of rod as needed. If you know all this then good if not I'm glad I helped. Thanks for your advise & positive comment. Next opportunity I will give your method a try, I have made other parts that I have gas welded and will show them later, using gas does leave the metal in a much more malleable state than tig, which is better for shaping as you say. My only concern with wheeling the weld, is creating shape I don't want, where as planishing is a bit more localised, also wheeling a big panel on your own takes experience not to damage, but I'll give it try next time. With regards to making flange, would you anneal the edge or not?
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Last Edit: May 18, 2017 19:29:50 GMT by maxakarudy
Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 18, 2017 11:04:26 GMT
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I study a lot of work by professional coachbuilders, who I would regard as the most skilled in the industry & try to emulate their work. They work on a completely different level to the average restoration shop doing mig welding repairs, that's what I was doing like everyone else, under a coat of filler the end result looks the same, so it's become the norm. You can't metal finish a migged repair to the same standard as a gas welded or tigged repair, but it really depends on what you want to get out of it, I really enjoy tappin metal, missis thinks I'm mental, The lightbulb moment comes on when don't worry about distortion & start to get your head around it, anybody can do it even monkeys like me. Fully appreciate where you coming from and it is exactly how I was taught as a restoration apprentice some 40 years ago - I run my own sole trading (cos I like it that way) restoration business - the big problem is that unless it is a classic that is worth hundreds of thousands rather than the normal ten of thousands you will not get clients willing to pay for the time and effort that a filler-less restoration takes - it is bad enough at the lower end of the market where clients want their vehicle restored to the correct specification & detail with exacting standards - but ultimately it is very difficult for them to justify spending £20 - £50k on restoring a classic that is still only worth £15 - £20k upon completion - hence value for money vs quality restoration plays a large part in what can be achieved - I am certainly not into applying filler in thick swathes to anything that travels through my workshop but undertaken with high quality materials and attention to detail the end result is as compelling has any filler-less restoration. Great skills that you have there and very rarely seen on a vehicle of a lower value like your MGB. Yes absolutley understand the dilema, I run my own sign business & try to make customers realise that signs are not all made to the same standard even given the same spec, there are sorts of cheats you can do to make them look similar, but when time passes these cheats become apparent, but's too late for the customer, so they pay again. The MGB would probably one of the most expensive ever, if all the panels were hand made & fitted to a standard were no filler is used, by a proffesional company, but it's just down to me & how much I want to put into it. To be honest there will be some filler I'm sure, I'll epoxy prime it, before any filler goes on, to minimise it absorbing moisture, I like foam rollers, no waste on paint that way.
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Last Edit: May 18, 2017 11:05:33 GMT by maxakarudy
Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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Amazing work, you're too modest. Ever considered a career change? I'm sure there are people willing to pay good money for your workmanship. Thanks for your comment, if you read grumpynortherener's paragraph, you'll understand exactly why it's not easy to start a business in this field. Without a reputation built on years in the trade, you are starting at the very bottom, where the market is so competitive & price driven. With all the overheads involved, making a living would be a challenge, never mind making a profit, because it's a hobby I can enjoy it for what it is and indulge in doing the job to a standard as far as I want to take it, no pressure
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 17, 2017 20:05:27 GMT
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As I said at the start of this thread, it's not all about one project, so the MG is on ice at the moment. After the bit of success with it, I wanted to test things out on aluminum, I happened to have an E Type V12 wing knocking around, so I thought I'd have a crack at this for a challenge. I have been messing around tig welding, but always struggled to get the settings right, there are too many dials & options on a tig welder for my liking. So needing more education I joined the Mig Welding forum to see if I could understand where I was going wrong, it helped a lot, so I spend many hours practicing & finally felt I was getting somewhere. When welding sheetmetal it's not necessary to worry about "Stacking Dimes", more about strength of weld, as it's gonna be filed off smooth anyway. I made the wing in 3 sections, made it to touch the original panel as close as possible, then butt weld together, hammer & dolly to shape Headlight section Wheelarch in progress Wheelarch finished Rear wing section & all panels positioined for trimming, prior to welding Welded all together Filing & metal finishing all joints Finished
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Last Edit: May 17, 2017 20:11:10 GMT by maxakarudy
Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 17, 2017 19:30:09 GMT
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Put me in the Mig and Fill camp. I have a TIG welder and can use it, but have never been able to wrap my head around the planishing process that would justify the hours that go into TIG welding a panel to a metal finished state. I know what you are saying, but having had a bit of success with metal finishing it does become addictive, plus you get more efficient the more you, I reckon by the time you filled it, there's not a huge amount time difference in it. Don't get wrong there are times you can't get a dolly in behind the repair, so you just have to use filler, I've seen 100k cars with 4-5mm of filler in them.
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 14, 2017 21:26:57 GMT
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all i can say, if you call that "amateur", then most of us must be chimps breaking macadamia nuts with a rock !! I study a lot of work by professional coachbuilders, who I would regard as the most skilled in the industry & try to emulate their work. They work on a completely different level to the average restoration shop doing mig welding repairs, that's what I was doing like everyone else, under a coat of filler the end result looks the same, so it's become the norm. You can't metal finish a migged repair to the same standard as a gas welded or tigged repair, but it really depends on what you want to get out of it, I really enjoy tappin metal, missis thinks I'm mental, The lightbulb moment comes on when don't worry about distortion & start to get your head around it, anybody can do it even monkeys like me.
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Last Edit: May 14, 2017 21:27:37 GMT by maxakarudy
Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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Yes I have a unit to play in, it's got 3ph electrics, so I can do most things. The door skin was rolled on a slip roller, btw A bit more on the wings, one was quite badly dented, so much so that I had to stand on it to get most of the shape back, then spent several hours straightening out with a hammer dolly. The wings I have are for a rubber bumper model, the only difference is the indicator area, this is cut out as the indicator is part of the bumper, where on the chrome bumper model which mine is has raise plinth area the indicator is mounted on, so I re-modelled to suit Gas welded btw
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 13, 2017 12:18:29 GMT
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Thanks for the comments. Yes metal is metal & creating shape makes anything you want, that's how I think of it too. The MG is not everyones taste, but it will suit my needs for now & it's a learning excerise, I've been on 2 metalshaping courses one at Contour Autocraft, when Ian was there & also went to MPH Panels in Cornwall, but there is only so much you can learn in a few days. The metalshaping forums have been a fantastic source of knowledge & anybody who is interested in knowing more should check them out, they have professionals on there that can give the correct advice, I'm an amateur & I don't think amateurs are the best people to ask advice about things, we've all heard ridiculous things said, as well intentioned advice in forums, but it's total garbage. I'm not new to fabrication, I've been messing with cars for over 35yrs, doing the usual basic restoration, but now at 52 I want get more serious at it, I would never do it for a living, I have my own business making signs, which pays the bills. Any way here's some panel work, some of you might have seen this already, but I'll put here as well...
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Last Edit: May 14, 2017 21:03:20 GMT by maxakarudy
Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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Fantastic fabrication skills and interesting to see . . . . . but why go to all that effort when MGB door skins are readily available? Thanks for compliment What do mean MGB doorskins are readily available , you must be mistaken, this isn't the kind of car you can go on Ebay & get a doorskin for £77.95 + £9.95 delivery, not a chance. No this is a very rare handbuilt car, the very nice man who I bought it off, said there were more Ferrari 250 SWB's built than this exotic beast & the 50k asking price was drop in the ocean of what a fully restored MGB GT was worth, after hearing that I couldn't get down the bank quick enough..... Fogey, that's a very valid question and in all seriousness it is something I wrestled with, why would I do that? Without sounding like I'm up myself, restoring an MGB is not challenging enough on it's own for me, but from a learning point of view of how to make panels, it made a lot of sense, if I screw things up, then just buy the part. I think I need to explain what the ultimate plan is so it makes more sense. The cars I love are from the 60's, L/W E Type Jags, Aston Martins, AC Cobras etc, all handbuilt by coachbuilders back in the day. These cars are now so expensive I'm never going to own one, but if I learn the skills necessary, then maybe I could build one, hense me starting with something basic like an MGB, which I intend to use as a daily driver instead of a standard euro box saloon. As I add more items to this tread you can see how my skills are developing from this point, stay tooned......
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Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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May 11, 2017 21:19:02 GMT
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Last Edit: May 11, 2017 21:20:57 GMT by maxakarudy
Cheers Martin
No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead of you
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