fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,593
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Mar 19, 2009 19:17:22 GMT
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HotWire: This is a fantastic forum and no, I am not out to stir things - and I have to say that I am more than a little upset that you think I am. However, I have taken on board your comments about contacting you by PM with such concerns and in the future will be happy to use that approach. Fogey (Not sure why the quote appeared as a seperate post - wasn't my intention
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Last Edit: Mar 19, 2009 19:18:43 GMT by fogey
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mrj
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,662
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Mar 19, 2009 19:37:33 GMT
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I can confirm that these schemes are running next month in Italy, Germany and France IIRC. We're working overtime to meet a predicted rise demand. I thought the German one was already running? it is already running since January, 14th..... the gouvernment pays 2500 Euro for each car older than 9 years that has been scrapped and replaced by a new (or almost new , less than a year old company car, ex-rental car etc.). By today almost 300.000 cars have been scrapped, the german gouvernment has a budget of 1,5 billion euro for that scheme, so theoretically 600.000 cars can be scrapped. From March, 31st you can apply for the 2.500 € before scrapping your old car, as another 400.000 cars have been bought but not delivered yet, 600.000 won't be enough... the german gouvernment was surprised, that the Maybach/Daimler/BMW sales did not rise, but all the french brands, Dacia (more than 300% + !) and all small, reliable and affordable cars are sold out.... though everyone speaks of the german manufacturers, there are a lot of german dealerships who benefit from this scheme.... I am working in a small Renault dealership and we are going crazy since that scheme came out.... but we are sold out of everything below the Megane.... there are not too much classic or retro cars affected, though the Polo 6N, the Golf Mk.III and the Fiesta are those cars, which now disappear in huge numbers from the road....
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Last Edit: Mar 19, 2009 19:39:12 GMT by mrj
- 1971 VW 1600 TL Fastback - 1978 Passat GLS Variant - 1980 Audi 100 5E - 1981 VW aircooled panel van (sold) - 1983 VW Jetta Mk.I - 1984 VW Polo Coupé - 1984 VW Passat hatchback - 1987 VW Passat Variant - 1987 VW Passat hatchback - 1988 VW T25
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Mar 19, 2009 20:16:13 GMT
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Seems like a waste of money for a wierd, terrible scheme. So I can take my 200 quid Astra in and make 2500 euros?
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Mar 19, 2009 20:53:55 GMT
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They may give you £2500 for your £250 car, but they will have it back off you and a bit more as well, as they say no such thing as a free lunch.
Our local Renault dealership had a showroom full of people when I was last when in, shame they were waiting for warranty and recall work and mooching round the place bored.
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Last Edit: Mar 19, 2009 21:12:17 GMT by paulmi16
205 GTi Mi16
205 XS - Now in filmidget's signature
Clio dci 80
I've found in life if someone is an idiot, they generally stay and idiot.
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Mar 19, 2009 21:10:38 GMT
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I havent paid much attention toit here in France, But Renault and a few other delaers have been offering a 1000€ payment to scrap old cars. I don't know if this is to be steped up to the 2500€ talked about or not. It is definately having an effect though. I have no interest at all in new cars so pay little attntion to them, but the classified adds that I do look at (under 1000€ cars usually) have changed slightly, with many old cars being sold as "ideal for 1000€ scrap trade-in" due to it meeting whatever requirements have been set, rather than trying to sell it as a car in its own right.
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Last Edit: Mar 19, 2009 21:11:42 GMT by dave21478
1986 Panda 4x4. 1990 Metro Sport. 1999 Ford Escort estate.
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Mar 19, 2009 22:58:38 GMT
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Hotwire's right. I don't think this forum is the place to discuss issues that clearly get people wound up. The cool pictures stop appearing and everyone wades in with their opinions, usually with a fair old degree of strength. Someone goes a bit far and it gets out of hand or everyone just ends up wanting to leave this 'ruined' country. It just gets boring to be honest!
As has been said, there are ways to get noticed and to take action against things. Turning keyboard warrior on a forum isn't the solution.
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1986 Citroen 2CV Dolly Other things. Check out my Blog for the latest! www.hubnut.org
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Mar 20, 2009 14:52:42 GMT
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If all the car manufacturers are suddenly strugling to meet demand for samll cars, and some are doing overtime to step up production, why did they just cancel the motor show??!!!??
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Mar 20, 2009 15:19:04 GMT
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if they give me the 2500 to spend i'll fit a lower emission engine.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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bazzateer
Posted a lot
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
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Mar 20, 2009 15:37:03 GMT
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If they want to help the environment they should pay us £2,500 to keep our cars on the road and avoid buying new cars which have been shown to cause more environmental damage during manufacture than the car itself will cause during it's lifetime. But as we all know, this scheme is purely intended to make us buy more cars thus keeping the manufacturers' shareholders happy. I appreciate there is also an effect on jobs etc.
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1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
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Filthyjohn
Part of things
Currently on the road: 1/11
Posts: 705
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Mar 20, 2009 15:47:41 GMT
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Just out of curiosity, who do you work for? I was under the impression that in the recesion we are apparently having people still aren't buying new cars. So I can't see any monetary incentive making a difference tbh. Nissan Sunderland id guess.. we take aluminium up there for them to turn into engines. More cars= more engines= roof over head That's the one. We've been holding steady at 52 Qashqais/hour, which is about 750 a day. Next month we're doing an hour overtime each shift (so 2 a day) and saturday mornings as well. There's even more OT on next door for micra/note, which we all thought weren't selling but they must have rallied a bit. For all this talk of sales being down, I'm still sweating like Lee Evans thanks to the line speed staying high. Someone's buying them.
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'95 Volvo 945 Turbo
'87 Volvo 765 TIC
'75 Opel Manta A 2.0 16v,
'86 Volvo 360 turbo,
'62 amazon,
'67 MGB GT.
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Mar 20, 2009 15:53:36 GMT
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If they want to help the environment they should pay us £2,500 to keep our cars on the road and avoid buying new cars which have been shown to cause more environmental damage during manufacture than the car itself will cause during it's lifetime. I'd like to see some actual factual proof of this statement please. I hear it a lot (and I think it may be right) but I've not had one person ever provide evidence that it is actually true.
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Mar 20, 2009 15:58:58 GMT
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If they want to help the environment they should pay us £2,500 to keep our cars on the road and avoid buying new cars which have been shown to cause more environmental damage during manufacture than the car itself will cause during it's lifetime. I'd like to see some actual factual proof of this statement please. I hear it a lot (and I think it may be right) but I've not had one person ever provide evidence that it is actually true. i wouldnt have thought you could proove it.. although like you i beleive it to be true... i mean how would you proove exacly how much effect on nature the manufacturing of a single car has? its impossible surely? not just the running of such a car as the effect of that can be measured , but the actually assembly. and then its effect over its lifetime (say the average car lasts 10 years) you would have to measure the combined effect of its manufacture and use and compare it to a car thats allready on the road , and its carbon footprint.. (surely more as its older???) and then add the possibilty of more parts it may need ontop of that the newer car would need as obviously the manufacture of such parts would effect the environment..
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Mar 20, 2009 16:00:03 GMT
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If they want to help the environment they should pay us £2,500 to keep our cars on the road and avoid buying new cars which have been shown to cause more environmental damage during manufacture than the car itself will cause during it's lifetime. I'd like to see some actual factual proof of this statement please. I hear it a lot (and I think it may be right) but I've not had one person ever provide evidence that it is actually true. I read a very well compiled argument for this, with plenty of figures to back it up, on this very forum. Not sure if it would have qualified as 'factual proof' but it certainly seemed well researched. Cant remember when, which suggests it was probably more than 6 months ago.
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bazzateer
Posted a lot
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
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Mar 20, 2009 16:00:57 GMT
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Mining the various ores, and fossil fuels required. Transporting them to places for refining. Refining them into a form that can be used to produce parts. Transporting the refined materials to where they are turned into parts. The actual manufacture of those parts. The transportation of those parts to the vehicle manufacturers. The process of vehicle manufacture. The transportation of the fininshed car to the dealer.
This is very simplified but bear in mind that many of these stages may involve mass transportation across the globe and the refining and manufacturing stages require huge amounts of energy which has to come from somewhere.
Surely you can see that the longer a (well maintained) car is kept on the road the better?
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1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
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Mar 20, 2009 16:05:34 GMT
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"Surely you can see" is not going to be a valid argument when someone starts pulling out facts and figures. You need to fight back with facts and figures.
How much raw energy does it take to build a new car, how much of it is recyclable/reclaimable, what will it put out in the way of gasses over its average life time (which appears to want to be set around 6 years!).
How does that compare with older cars already on the road that can't be 100% recycled at the end of their life?
This is part of my problem with this stuff being on here, preaching to the choir may make you feel better, but it actually doesn't arm you in any way shape or form for an actual discussion with people that disagree with your point of view.
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Mar 20, 2009 16:06:32 GMT
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From what i've gathered hunting around the net the measuremnets are a bit vague as it depends a lot on which cars you compare, my merc coupe for instance probably used a lot more energy to create as well as using more petrol of a higher octane over its life than something like an escort 1100 from the same year, so mine will have a much shorter life before it starts to overtake the energy needs to build a new car, which also varies, something simple like a Jeep Wrangler obviously takes less energy to make than an S class merc. i seem to remember a site that looked credible (typically cant find it now) saying the average was between 15 and twnty years on the road before getting into an "enrgy deficit" but that the figure would change yearly as newer cars move into the frame that have higher percentages of recycled parts and more efficient engines and higher MPG.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Mar 20, 2009 16:15:46 GMT
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This is part of my problem with this stuff being on here, preaching to the choir may make you feel better, but it actually doesn't arm you in any way shape or form for an actual discussion with people that disagree with your point of view. David, but you can appreciate the countervailing point, yes? Meaning that by engaging in this discussion, cooly and dispassionately as you have, asking for proofs and evidence, you have served to sharpen the facts. You have raised the tone. This is the kind of discussion we need, sir. In your inimitable way, by allowing the flow of conversation, you have served to heighten its quality and now your fellow conversationalists are scrambling to dig up those proofs and evidences. Good stuff! This is the essence of leadership. You need no longer doubt the value of "this stuff on here", where it is lifted up and beyond yelling and whining, and into reasoning and facts. The danger of putting it all into the WB ab initio, is that we risk (globally, since the pols are copy-catting each other's policies) losing our various car freedoms and privileges. The opposition is chatting hard about how to eliminate much of what we love. We must be likewise engaged in effective dialogue, IMO. Thank you for permitting this discussion, David. And more than that... for your participation in making it BETTER. Norm
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Mar 20, 2009 16:19:49 GMT
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Thank you for permitting this discussion, David. And more than that... for your participation in making it BETTER. There is no denying that I make everything better by my participation.. but I'd still rather be talking about this than the contents of this thread. This thread isn't adding to the quality of the board... and there are much more relevant places to be discussing this.
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Mar 20, 2009 16:25:03 GMT
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There is no denying that I make everything better by my participation.. but I'd still rather be talking about this than the contents of this thread. This thread isn't adding to the quality of the board... and there are much more relevant places to be discussing this. David, think of discussions about gov't anti-car and anti-mobility regulations in the same light as "The Talk" you get about prostate disease at the doctor's office. No, it isn't the most pleasant topic. But if you want to continue pursuing life, it is something to keep a watchful eye on! We would all rather be looking at Bronze Beauties than looking at wall charts down at the clinic. Agreed!
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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bazzateer
Posted a lot
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
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Mar 20, 2009 16:36:28 GMT
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Just found this on Friends of the Earth website, seems to support the general argument.
"Archived press release
New Research Shows Global "Footprint" of Motoring As FOE Puts The Car on Trial 6 June 1996
New research, released today, shows the global "footprint" of Britain's motoring extends far further than previously thought [1]:
Making an average car produces 54 tonnes of waste;
The average UK car emits 37 tonnes of carbon dioxide in its life;
Cars account for 11% of the UK's consumption of steel, 11% of our aluminium, 27% of our lead, 4% of our zinc, 10% of our copper and 42% of our consumption of platinum. The extraction of these metals causes serious deforestation and water pollution in mining countries such as New Guinea, Canada and Brazil."
I doubt you can ever put precise figures on any of this , educated estimates are probably the best we can hope for, after all manufacture of a G-Whiz is probably less involved than that of a Maybach.
IMHO a well maintained older car will likely cause less pollution than a poorly maintained modern.
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1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
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