The Doctor
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,434
Club RR Member Number: 48
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Dec 12, 2007 11:59:02 GMT
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i'm thinking about buying a camshaft for my Starlet, but i don't understand all those numbers about timing/duration etc. etc... there are 3 types of camshaft for sale for the starlet, made by TRD. Spec list: Can anyone explain me how i need to read that numbers? I can understand what Lift does mean, but thats the same for all of them ;D thankyouverymuch ;D
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Dec 12, 2007 12:07:53 GMT
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well the 300 294 280 numbers will be your duration
The 0.23mm will be your valve clerances
and all the ATDC104deg etc will be the timings
don't ask me to explain what they mean, your better off buying a book!! all you can relly say is the more duration the 'hotter' the cam.
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Dec 12, 2007 12:09:05 GMT
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lift is how high the valve is opened and duration is how long it is open (in degrees)
You can start getting into inlet valve opening (in terms of degrees relative to TDC) and duration of overlap (lobe separation angle and so)
Theres a lot to it. Easiest thing to do is look at the application of the cam you are looking at and see what matches your use. (beware of meaningless descriptions like "half race" though) Most of the yank cam makers give you a list of the supporting mods required to make the cam work in terms of head flow, compression, gearing, etc. so see if you can find this for you engine too.
Or start the learning curve of how to work out cam behaviour from published specs.
edit: parallel post with Slaters - agreed - you really can read a whole book on cams.
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Last Edit: Dec 12, 2007 12:10:09 GMT by akku
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Dec 12, 2007 12:50:13 GMT
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The main concern if you're going for wilder cams will be how much lift you can get away with on your head. If it's a stock head just go for the maddest one they recommend for a stock head, no point being half assed about it
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Dec 12, 2007 13:25:22 GMT
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like he says tho they are all the same lift
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Dec 12, 2007 15:10:46 GMT
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As a matter of interest, is there a formula to calculate duration from the cam timing figures?
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1953 Minor (Long term project) PT Cruiser
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The Doctor
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,434
Club RR Member Number: 48
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Dec 12, 2007 15:16:14 GMT
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The main concern if you're going for wilder cams will be how much lift you can get away with on your head. If it's a stock head just go for the maddest one they recommend for a stock head, no point being half assed about it just like slater says, all 3 have the same lift. Which brings me to another question... What makes me having to use stiffer valvesprings? Is it only the lift which causes that? of do other things play a role in that too?
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Dec 12, 2007 16:25:33 GMT
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In which case go for the longest duration Longer duration is for higher revving and there will be a degree of overlap where the exhaust valve and the inlet valve are both open. The added top end power is at the sacrifice of a bit of bottom end and fuel economy but probably not that noticeable since the lift is likely to be higher than stock. The only last thing to check is if they are on the limit of the lift that it can take then check with them that the valves will clear the piston on a stock engine with the added duration You need stronger valve springs when you want the engine to rev higher. The stronger spring will snap the valve shut faster and stop it jumping off the cam lobe. The added strength in the spring also seals the valve shut more effectively against cylinder pressures if you've upped the compression of running wild cams. Again it is at the expense of something and this time it's added friction in the valvetrain, so they recommend only go as strong as you need to on valve springs. I would expect with a fast road cam in a stock head you can use the stock springs, but get a brand new set as they will be the correct length and not squished down and softened from repeated use over 50K miles.
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Dec 12, 2007 18:12:20 GMT
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Is this a road car or racer?? id go with the low duration unless its an all out racer. Starlets have a old pushrod type lump don't they? 300duration is going to be a serious race cam i would think!
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The Doctor
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,434
Club RR Member Number: 48
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Dec 12, 2007 18:19:47 GMT
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no, i've got the modern WWD starlet with an SOHC engine (3 valves per cylinder). I want to let it make a little bit more power (equal length exhaust manifold, twin 40 webbers and another cam etc. etc.), but I just found a cam in Japan which happens to be the 'wildest' of those 3 on the list, and since the price isn't bad, I think i'm going for that ;D
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Last Edit: Dec 12, 2007 18:21:15 GMT by The Doctor
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Dec 12, 2007 18:57:09 GMT
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By all means try it, from my experiance cams of aroud 280deg duration are normaly mid range kind of cams (2000-7000rpm maybe) and cams of 300 are normaly alot more racey, we are talking 4500-9000 powerbands and stuff!, totaly useless for a road car.
Then again I'm not 'that' experianced with anything with a SOHC and 3 valves.
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The Doctor
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,434
Club RR Member Number: 48
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Dec 12, 2007 19:08:44 GMT
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well, my stock engine delivers it's mighty 75 bhp at 6000 rpm, so it's allready kinda high revvy (i can go up to 7500 atm)
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Dec 12, 2007 19:35:44 GMT
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indeed but consider that your stock engine may make, say 40bhp at 3000rpm and 75 at 6000 but if you fit a race cam it may now make 100bhp at 8000 but now only make 20bhp at 3000rpm!
Generally what you gain up top you loose down low and down low is where it matters!
Id suggest before you go spending big bucks on a cam you read up on it a bit more. It could seriously ruin your engine if you get the wrong one.
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Dec 12, 2007 20:40:53 GMT
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My rule of thumb is don't go above 270 degrees on a road car, especially one with a small engine if you don't want to be thrashing it all the time.
As much lift as is practical is always good though!
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Last Edit: Dec 12, 2007 20:41:22 GMT by mskinner
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Dec 13, 2007 13:01:15 GMT
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As much lift as you can accomodate without the piston hitting the valves... And remember that the rods get longer at hot high RPM use so a static check may not tell you all...
Too much lift with a short duration is very hard on valve train parts as the rate of acceleration of the valve is that much higher meaning the inertia when it stops and changes direction is more....
Hense you need beefier valve spraings and the like but on their own they can just mean faster cam and valve gear wear as they increase seat pressure...
Like Slater has said, you tend to move the power up top with cam work, so just because you can rev to 7500 doesn't mena you want to. A lad I knew yonks ago fitted some mad cam in his Escort and he had to get like 4000 RPM just to stop it stalling when parking or doing a 3 point turn. Not fun.
I also saw a demo of a Dodge Dart which had a mild road cam fitted. They then swapped in some "3/4 race spec" job with lots of overlap and all. On the dyo the car picked up 20-30 BHP (I forget the exact number) but all meaningful on-road testing showed the car to be slower... (50-70, 30-50, 0-60 tests IIRC)
I ran a 284* cam in a much larger engine with it slightly retarded and with bleed-down lifters to control lift at lower RPM, and even then the sodding thing was rough on idle and stalled like a curse word if you drove it in traffic before it was properly warmed up.
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Dec 13, 2007 14:47:30 GMT
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Do the 300, you know you want to. Don't listen to them.
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Dec 13, 2007 18:21:56 GMT
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Did you buy it yet?
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Dec 13, 2007 20:07:22 GMT
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Have you bought it now? Cmoooon...
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The Doctor
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,434
Club RR Member Number: 48
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Dec 13, 2007 22:13:34 GMT
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i've done a bid trough my contact in japan for the 3rd on this list: let's hope i still have the highest bid tomorrow ;D
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Dec 14, 2007 12:18:44 GMT
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Once the lift on the valve is 25% of the Valve Dia then you have reached the maximum lift needed, opening it further will not flow any more air
How fast you open it and how long you leave it open are the important things and the valve acceleration is what what dictates spring rates, you do not need a spring to seal a valve, only to seat it
Seat pressure should be the minimum you can get away with to prevent valve float
A 300deg duration cam in a small engine will be peaky as hell for road and even fast road use a cam with a wider spread of torque in the mid range will be faster on the road
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