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Sept 10, 2023 18:18:28 GMT
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Boosted Pinto.
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Sept 10, 2023 18:28:37 GMT
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This is a buildthread with a difference.
I'm not going to tell what the car is yet.
This is not to be mysterious, or anything like that.
The reason is more practical.
This is going to be a long term project, basically working around other stuff I have going on.
So there is the risk the build gets delayed at some point, and then there is a unfinished tread about this car ( this has already happened before with this car, on another forum, years ago...)
Also, I'm kinda working backwards to the point I want to be with this ( weight distribution, etc. But also I have a certain laptime in mind that I'd like to achieve with this on a particular track).
But I'm flexible on what parts to use to get there.
So that is the disclaimer part of this thread.
Hopefully its still OK...
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Sept 10, 2023 18:44:46 GMT
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Normally, these cars have a 1600Kent and a 2000e gearbox. Nothing wrong with that, its a great combination with a huge selection of aftermarket parts available for them. But I thought it would be fun to put something different in there. I have a lot of 2Litre pinto stuff stashed away, so that was a natural choice. I have a turbocharged 2Litre in my sandrail, and other than it not reacting well to being parked outside for long, its a really nice combination. So the next thought was supercharging it. Here is a mockup.  A 2000e will not cope with that kind of torque, so I had to think of something else. I have a C4 automatic that used to be in my Streetfreak Capri, and a rare C4 bellhousing out of a early '70s Capri. That would work, but the C4 would have to be shortened. I talked to local racers, and they talked me out of using the C4. ( shortening that tranny is expensive, and the general consensus is that the C4 isn't that good for racing). They recommended the Powerglide, which has a huge aftermaket support with plenty of new and 2nd hand aftermarket parts available. And there is a lot of knowhow from drag- and circletrack racers. Mine, being a road race track car, will be a combination of the two... |
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Sept 10, 2023 18:53:58 GMT
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So why use a slushbox in the first place? The Powerglide is strong, ( relatively) light, and can be shortened to a really compact unit for very reasonable money ( racers are always broke...) On a short track I'd save time shifting, and the shifts I do make could be done without lifting. Think of it as a low buck version of Jim Hall's ( of Chaparral fame) 2 speeds. (his were purpose built racing 'boxes, but they also used a torque converter) So now the search was on for a cheap buildable Powerglide. I found 2 for $90 a piece. Spares from a retired racer who'd sold his racecar.  |
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teaboy
Posted a lot
Make tea, not war.
Posts: 1,933
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Sept 10, 2023 19:01:11 GMT
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So why use a slushbox in the first place? Think of it as a low buck version of Jim Hall's ( of Chaparral fame) 2 speeds. (his were purpose built racing 'boxes, but they also used a torque converter) In the Chaparral he had a 7 litre alloy block Chevy bolted to the front of it though.  |
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Sept 10, 2023 19:08:36 GMT
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The critical part between the engine and the tranny is the torque converter. And because of the type of racing and the combination of parts, there is no off the shelf unit that will work. A buddy of mine works in a transmission rebuild shop that specializes in custom racing converters, and their converter guy is interested in the project. So hopefully he can build me what I need. This is a very important part of the puzzle, and without it this whole thing is not possible. A Powerglide has an integral bellhousing, so that needed to be cut off. That needed to happen first, so we can start measuring and planning.   With that gone, the tranny can be adapted to the C4 to Pinto bellhousing.  I'll make an adapter ring that mates the two, when I know how thick it needs to be. Quick mockup with a 2Litre block, to get a better idea of what it will look like.  But for better weight distribution I'll tilt the engine to the right. This is 23 degs, which looks about right. But I'll do some cornerweight measurements later to make sure.   |
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Sept 10, 2023 19:33:10 GMT
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So why use a slushbox in the first place? Think of it as a low buck version of Jim Hall's ( of Chaparral fame) 2 speeds. (his were purpose built racing 'boxes, but they also used a torque converter) In the Chaparral he had a 7 litre alloy block Chevy bolted to the front of it though. Correct.  So there is the main disadvantage of the slushbox. It will loose a lot of power, compared to a manual gearbox ( specially if it is a straight cut, close ratio dog box). The reason he went for a torque converter was that his racecar had wheelspin in every gear, and he figured a regular gearbox was not needed. I plan to use R888 type tires, so in a light car with (relatively) a lot of torque, I might get some of the same. Those tires, and the torque converter may soften the driveline shocks enough to where I can use English Axle rear end parts. Also, I'm not restricted by engine size. So I can work backwards from the amount of HP I want to see at the rear wheels, and bolt up whatever engine will give me that. So that brings me to the next big change in plans... A 2Litre Pinto reacts really well to being boosted, but there are limits to that. Strictly from a engine point of view, a 2.3Litre SVO would be a better choice. It already has the correct cam, rods, pistons, etc, to be used with boost. It shares the bellhouse bolt pattern with the 2Litre, so it will bolt up to the Capri bell. And more importantly, I have one ( OK, I have 2...) ( I'll take some pics of it later) These ran with a modest 150 or so HP ( for the automatic) , 190 ish ( for the T5 5 speed) , to 350 or so on stock internals, and crazy HP numbers with headwork and better internals. So that is where I'm at, right now. I need to weigh the SVO, 2Litre, and a Kent to see where I'm at. And if I can get the weight distribution right with any of the bigger engines. That will determine if the SVO is a viable option. And if so, if just shortening the Powerglide will do the trick. Or if I have to build a new rear suspension around a Lotus Elan diff ( which will allow me to use a shorter driveshaft). As I'm getting my head around the concept, things will change. And then change again, probably. But hopefully, in the end it will be something that works well. I'll post more updates as they happen... |
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Sept 10, 2023 20:13:11 GMT
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Sept 14, 2023 12:23:12 GMT
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Slow or not.
I am looking forward to this one unfold.
And all your solutions made on the run.
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mylittletony
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,340
Club RR Member Number: 84
Member is Online
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Boosted Pinto.mylittletony
@mylittletony
Club Retro Rides Member 84
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Sept 14, 2023 14:48:51 GMT
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Obviously I'm bookmarked
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Sept 15, 2023 2:28:09 GMT
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Thanks guys. I bought a couple of books about building racing Powerglides, and I've been doing internet searches. Because automatics are completely new to me. I'm starting to get a picture of what is needed. The goal, as far as the car goes, is to build it as cost effective as possible ( in other words, not too many exotic parts. And if possible, parts I already own). But also low operating costs. For the performance it will give me ( hopefully... ) But again, I'm planning pretty far into the future. Nothing drastic will happen anytime soon... |
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dazee
Part of things
Posts: 94
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Sept 15, 2023 10:42:06 GMT
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Your projects are always interesting. Bookmarked.
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Sept 16, 2023 17:27:16 GMT
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Didn’t realise those gearboxes were so small with both ends chopped off them!
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Sept 18, 2023 4:15:15 GMT
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Didn’t realise those gearboxes were so small with both ends chopped off them! There's very little inside a 2-speed powerglide, competitively; as stated, the torque converter gets a workout on these and needs to be chosen carefully for the application. If not it'll drive like a 1995 Escort automatic. Press throttle, get "bluuuuhhhhhhh" of engine laboring... |
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,759
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Sept 18, 2023 5:22:27 GMT
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As we are a bit blind to the project, other than its using a small inline 4 and a 2 speedpowerglide, and a lightweight rear end, obviously a LSD will help with longevity of the diff and shafts, lets put another curved ball into the arena, what about a "ClutchGlide" it used to be quite common with drag racers in the 60s, and might be an easier option than getting the torque converter that will work with your options, it would probably be much lighter, a bit more machining in the area of input and pump drive but not overly complicated
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Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style.
Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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Sept 18, 2023 8:12:09 GMT
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PhilA , correct. The right torque converter will be critical. I'll be leaning heavily on the expertise of others with this one. v8ian , I've looked into clutched automatics some time ago for another project. ( came close to buying a Clutchflite, the Mopar Torque Flite version, but it was disassembled and it was not clear what was wrong with it or if any parts were missing. So I passed on that one) From what I've been told, the shifts are really violent. I assume that was for clutchless shifts, I think you should be able to use the clutch to shift like a normal manual, but then the advantage over a normal manual kind of goes away. With the Powerglide, being only a 2 speed, I'm counting on the torque converter to give me more flexibility over the speed/ engine RPM range. As well as some cusioning of the shifts themselfs, hopefully... The 2 books I bought are pretty light on some info I was hoping to get. Like if the harshness of the shifts can be dialed in, for instance. ( I assume that is dictated by the internal line pressure, and if so, does that only affect the internal bands & friction plates, or also the torque converter). But they hopefully did give me enough information so I can ask automatic transmission and torque converter specialists the right questions... As far as the car itself goes, to make it a little less abstract, Think of a road track car (a regular circuit, but also usable for shorter tracks, and/or hillclimbs), front/ mid engined, about the weight distribution of a Formula Ford, and about the wheelbase of a Austin Healey Sprite. In other words, small and light... Thanks for thinking with me guys. I appreciate it.
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Sept 18, 2023 8:34:55 GMT
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Part of the inspiration of this project is actually the original Formula Ford. The history of those ( if I remember right ) was that they used Formula3/Formula Juniors, but took out the expensive and temperamental MAE 1 litre screamers and swapped in bone stock 1500GT pre-crossflow's ( and later the 1600 crossflow's). I believe the Russel driving school was very involved with those, and I think there was also a link to the movie Grand Prix ( the cars the actors drove). They proved themselfs to be relatively cheap and a lot of fun, so a racing class was built around them. My project, like the original Formula Fords, will have a larger than usual engine in low spec ( almost completely stock). www.motor1.com/news/409043/ford-mustang-svo-dyno-run/ |
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,759
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Sept 18, 2023 9:44:03 GMT
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Part of the inspiration of this project is actually the original Formula Ford. The history of those ( if I remember right ) was that they used Formula3/Formula Juniors, but took out the expensive and temperamental MAE 1 litre screamers and swapped in bone stock 1500GT pre-crossflow's ( and later the 1600 crossflow's). I believe the Russel driving school was very involved with those, and I think there was also a link to the movie Grand Prix ( the cars the actors drove). They proved themselfs to be relatively cheap and a lot of fun, so a racing class was built around them. My project, like the original Formula Fords, will have a larger than usual engine in low spec ( almost completely stock). www.motor1.com/news/409043/ford-mustang-svo-dyno-run/ Ahhhh,the MAE, (modified Anglia Engine) I have had at least 22 anglia over the years, none of them stock, my choice of power was normally a trusty 1760, originally built by Ian Walker, when that engine was being rebuilt, I went to a Twink, one afternoon Was chatting with another older apprentice about anglias, who said his big brother had a race engine in his anglia, but found it too much, eventually I did a deal for money from him and the tired Twink. the "race Engine" evidently had never run properly, and was on a nicely fabbed inlet with a single 48 downdraft, a week or so later I got some paperwork about the engine, complete with a bill of sale that had "Broadspeed" on the header, I called them, asked few questions, and they were sure it was one of their BTCC MAE engines, I got some more spec, it had been converted back to a wet sump that leaked badly,so I pulled the sump, it was Mirror polished internally including the Block sides, It was awful to drive on the street, never woke up until about 7k and ruined 2000e boxes because they were never to be driven around at 11k,I had to take it out as the local breakers were running out of gearboxes. I eventually sold it for a good profit. |
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Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style.
Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,759
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Sept 18, 2023 14:21:31 GMT
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From what I remember about clutchflites that the clutch was for launching, then the pump would pressurise the box and the box would run like any auto other than stopping when you would need to depress the clutch, I think a 6 speed Lenco with reverser would be just up your street 7 gear levers, what could be more fun lol |
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Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style.
Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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Sept 18, 2023 18:04:30 GMT
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v8ian , I'm coming at this from the other end. Back when I was doing parkinglot races in the Netherlands, I built my singleseater. ( based on a tub and front suspension of a Lola T492).  I had a couple of ideas for a next version of it, and one of those ideas was to eliminate the transmission completely. Just a torque converter, coupled straight to the diff. ( my blue racer had a 1000cc engine and a 5 speed, but I only used a couple of gears, so the unused ones were just going along for a ride, being dead weight...) The saved weight of no transmission could then be used for a bigger torquier engine, say something like a RV8 or even a SBC, in a car that weighed approx 350 to 400Kg, ready to go. At the time I lacked the knowledge and funds to make it happen, but part of that line of thinking continues on in this project. In a way, it all centers around the torque converter, which at this point is also the biggest unknown. But I think it will be a lot of fun finding that out and learning about it. If it turns out to be a big mistake, I'll change the car back to a conventional driveline ( I make sure I'll still be able to do that ). And chalk it up to experience...
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