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Thanks for the reply Adam.
As I say, I work in car rental and get to drive loads of different, new model, cars every day. Most systems are still very slow.
I also get feedback from the-man-in-the-street, our customers, every day. Lots of people really don't like them. I suspect that people buy cars with EPB because they ain't got much choice!
With manually applied EPB systems there is still the problem of operator error and handbrakes not being set.
The newer systems that apply themselves when the transmission is put in 'park' are so much better and overcome all the problems that the average driver has with the technology. In retrospect, if car makers had waited until the systems were developed to this level before fitting EPB to their products it would have hugely reduced the amount of antipathy many have toward the idea!
Of course, none of this helps the poor sods who have to fix the things...
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Jul 29, 2019 17:03:18 GMT
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^ Well, it's interesting that you have experienced this problem with multiple vehicles. Is it a long list of the vehicles you've found to have sllllloooooooowwwww EPBs? I notice VW now put them down where the handbrake used to be. One muppet describing a new vehice was proud to announce the increase in space in the centre console because of the EPB instead of a handbrake :rolleyes:
I finally gave up because of the EPB and have thankfully sold that P.O.S. VW Passat B6, and must admit, I think I have been tainted for life with EPBs for the reasons you gave previously. I don't even care I lost quite a chunk of cash on it - shouting at a car is not healthy!
Getting back into my Mk6 Golf with a proper handbrake, well, I don't even think about the operating of it. It just works. And yes, I do know the Mk6 golf has a type of EPB operated by a handbrake as I can feel it 'grabbing'.
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,864
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Jul 29, 2019 18:24:28 GMT
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^ Well, it's interesting that you have experienced this problem with multiple vehicles. Is it a long list of the vehicles you've found to have sllllloooooooowwwww EPBs? I notice VW now put them down where the handbrake used to be. One muppet describing a new vehice was proud to announce the increase in space in the centre console because of the EPB instead of a handbrake :rolleyes: I finally gave up because of the EPB and have thankfully sold that P.O.S. VW Passat B6, and must admit, I think I have been tainted for life with EPBs for the reasons you gave previously. I don't even care I lost quite a chunk of cash on it - shouting at a car is not healthy! Getting back into my Mk6 Golf with a proper handbrake, well, I don't even think about the operating of it. It just works. And yes, I do know the Mk6 golf has a type of EPB operated by a handbrake as I can feel it 'grabbing'. Regardless of where you put an EPB switch, you can't deny that a switch takes up less space than a handbrake lever! Also your Mk6 doesn't have an EPB of any kind, it has rear caliper parking brakes which are operated by the manual cable. If you have your foot on the brake pedal while you pull the handbrake lever, you will feel the cable pulling the pads onto the disc, this is what you will be feeling through the pedal.
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I'm gonna add my 2 pence not that its worth much.
2 months ago I picked up a 2008 Audi A4 (B8) and its the first EPB car I have owned.
So far its caused me no problems what so ever. As with everything new it takes a tiny bit of time to get used to but now its second nature.
Seatbelt on I don't even need to release it and with the auto setting when I come to a complete halt it will hold the car until I press the accelerator to pull away which works great on hill starts and parking.
I admit I don't look forward to changing pads without the wind in tool but so far its caused no headaches.
Dave.
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Jul 30, 2019 10:58:33 GMT
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A lot of this stuff is older than we think, I had an 84 Cadillac Seville that had rain sensing wipers and auto dipping headlights. The wipers worked, erratically, but they worked, the auto dipping was a menace! On unlit roads, the sensors detected reflected light of the headlamps from every single road sign and dipped the lights! The only good part of THAT system was the off switch!
As near as I can tell, the EPB is just another way to take something simple, cheap and easy to use and make it complicated, expensive and confusing! Apart from anything else, it offends my sensibilties as an engineer as it makes a mockery of the KISS principal (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) the first law of sound engineering!
A bit like the Dual Mass flywheel! Or when Vauxhall supeceded the Cavalier (Vectra A) with the Vectra B!
Steve
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Last Edit: Jul 30, 2019 11:08:06 GMT by carledo
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anything that "improves" a vehicles comfort/safety/enjoyment is ok in my book , these do none of those. just add to complexity and cost. never had...don't want.
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating '80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip '97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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I know it hasn't got EPB, but my P38 range rover is referred to as'the electronic time bomb' for precisely this reason, it has faults when it feels like it, and sometimes cures itself for no apparent reason. Some of the faults are completely opposite, occasionally it won't unlock at all, then the next day it won't lock. Too clever for its own good.
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Jul 31, 2019 19:59:31 GMT
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"Too clever for its own good."
This pretty much sums up all new vehicles for me. Too clever for it's own good, as the person sitting behind the wheel gets ever less clever ;->
I'm wondering if there actually are any brand new cars that are still simple yet effective, or have we now got to the stage where technology has killed off simplicity?
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jul 31, 2019 20:13:56 GMT
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A lot of this stuff is older than we think, I had an 84 Cadillac Seville that had rain sensing wipers and auto dipping headlights. The wipers worked, erratically, but they worked, the auto dipping was a menace! On unlit roads, the sensors detected reflected light of the headlamps from every single road sign and dipped the lights! The only good part of THAT system was the off switch! Steve My ‘66 Lincoln continental has the self dipping lights, and I’m not even sure that was the first thing with them!
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,834
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jul 31, 2019 22:21:32 GMT
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The statistics don't back up any claim that new car technology is pointless/overcomplicating things for the sake of it.
The number of vehicles on the road continues to go up yet the number of accidents and number of injuries/fatalities arising from them goes down.
I know people like to live in some rose tinted fantasy land where everything old is better but unfortunately it's absolute horse curse word.
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Jul 31, 2019 22:39:42 GMT
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I know people like to live in some rose tinted fantasy land where everything old is better but unfortunately it's absolute horse curse word. Well, there goes my world.
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The number of vehicles on the road continues to go up yet the number of accidents and number of injuries/fatalities arising from them goes down. Id agree that vehicles are safer, but how much is due to crumple zones etc, meaning that a more severe accident results in less injury? If you compare, say, the old mini to the BMW one, the new vehicle is massive in comparison, are they just better at protecting the occupants, regardless of'driver aids'? Id also argue that, certainly in major cities, the ability to have a higher speed impact is very reduced, in London for example the speed of traffic is less now than in the days of the horse and carriage.It would be interesting to know if the number of non-injury accidents has increased, and not just because of the number of vehicles using the roads.
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There are, according to one of my favourite sci fi authors Robert Heinlein, 3 stages in the development of all technology.
The first is crude and simple, the next is fantastically complex and only slightly better and the 3rd is simple AND elegant and works perfectly.......... By which time it is obsolete!
Human endeavour in a nutshell!
Steve
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Last Edit: Aug 1, 2019 20:48:39 GMT by carledo
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The statistics don't back up any claim that new car technology is pointless/overcomplicating things for the sake of it. The number of vehicles on the road continues to go up yet the number of accidents and number of injuries/fatalities arising from them goes down. I know people like to live in some rose tinted fantasy land where everything old is better but unfortunately it's absolute horse curse word. I doubt that there is a record of a single accident that occured because the vehicle had a mechanical parking brake....... It's like when Renault blamed safety standards for why their cars were horrible to switch out bulbs in, back when the Mk3 Mondeo was produced where you just pulled out a tab to remove the whole headlight in less than a minute. That didn't make the Mondeo any more dangerous than a Renault, probably safer since there was less of a risk that Mondeos were driving around one-eyed......
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194? Willys Jeep MB 1965 Volvo 544 Special 1968 Opel Rekord 1975 Opel Kadett Estate 1985 Mercedes-Benz 230E 1985 Datsun 720 King Cab 4x4 diesel 1997 Volvo S70 2.5SE (ex. "Volvo544special65" - changed to more reader friendly username. )
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,834
Club RR Member Number: 174
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The statistics don't back up any claim that new car technology is pointless/overcomplicating things for the sake of it. The number of vehicles on the road continues to go up yet the number of accidents and number of injuries/fatalities arising from them goes down. I know people like to live in some rose tinted fantasy land where everything old is better but unfortunately it's absolute horse curse word. I doubt that there is a record of a single accident that occured because the vehicle had a mechanical parking brake....... It's like when Renault blamed safety standards for why their cars were horrible to switch out bulbs in, back when the Mk3 Mondeo was produced where you just pulled out a tab to remove the whole headlight in less than a minute. That didn't make the Mondeo any more dangerous than a Renault, probably safer since there was less of a risk that Mondeos were driving around one-eyed...... It's funny you should say that as just this morning I watched a Vauxhall Astra Estate roll 50yds down the road and luckily crash into a bollard before it went out onto the main road, because the driver had forgot to put the handbrake on.
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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The statistics don't back up any claim that new car technology is pointless/overcomplicating things for the sake of it. The number of vehicles on the road continues to go up yet the number of accidents and number of injuries/fatalities arising from them goes down. I know people like to live in some rose tinted fantasy land where everything old is better but unfortunately it's absolute horse curse word. I doubt that there is a record of a single accident that occured because the vehicle had a mechanical parking brake....... Unless it was an early Citroen Xantia..home of the self-releasing handbrake when the vented discs cool down. Citroen’s answer was to remove a few teeth off the ratchet so you had to pull it harder in the first place, IIRC.
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ferny
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 983
Club RR Member Number: 13
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I doubt that there is a record of a single accident that occured because the vehicle had a mechanical parking brake....... Unless it was an early Citroen Xantia..home of the self-releasing handbrake when the vented discs cool down. Citroen’s answer was to remove a few teeth off the ratchet so you had to pull it harder in the first place, IIRC. Vivaro/Trafic/etc are also well known for this.
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