Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,710
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nope, I’m refering to manuals as I rarely buy autos. I currently have 15 cars, 10 are American, only 1 is auto.
I have 9 cars with dash handbrakes, 5x ‘normal’, and 1x neither.
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I think EPBs on a manual are a bad idea. If they were to release unexpectedly while parked on a hill there would be problems!
Maybe just leave the car in gear as on the P1ssrat you have to clutch it to start it?
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,856
Club RR Member Number: 58
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If you think EPB's are bad, just wait for true brake by wire/EMB electro mechanical braking, no fluid at all We already have that on certain trailers, and most american caravans. Not the brightest of ideas if you ask me. I've been in a couple early demonstrators of vehicles with the technology, it can work but has a long way to go Can't say I'm entirely sold on the idea of purely electric brakes either but it seems to be the way the industry is heading
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As mentioned, if you try to slide a (2011 shape) passat in the snow, using the handbrake button results in a 4 wheel abs stop. Sounds great unless you're trying to get the back end to slide around and end up understearing towards a wall 🤦🏼♂️🤣 Not sure that any manufacturer is really considering the average ‘boy racers’ (for want of a better word) needs for handbrake turns, when they design any handbrake never mind electric ones 😉 But what else are you supposed to do in the snow in a fwd car 🤣
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Nope, I’m refering to manuals as I rarely buy autos. I currently have 15 cars, 10 are American, only 1 is auto. I have 9 cars with dash handbrakes, 5x ‘normal’, and 1x neither. Yours may not be, what I said was the vast majority of yank stuff IS auto & that is a fact
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Bolf
Part of things
Posts: 507
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I could do with one , got a bmw v8 wedged in a 2wd hilux and there is no real provision for a handbrake now (OEM one is a dash mounted pull and twist) , I think an aftermarket electric will have to do .
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I was surprised to see a 16 plate Scirocco had a normal handbrake. Being a more up-market Vdub and as the Golf and everything above that has since 2013 or so had an EPB 'twas a surprise. Made me quite fancy getting one now!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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As is pretty much anything American. I reckon in my driving history I’ve probaly had less cars with a ‘normal’ handbrake lever than dash mount of some variety. I do prefer a true umbrella one rather than a foot pedal with release lever though. The vast majority of American stuff is auto, so makes little difference, I guess. You just bang it in park & don’t even really need the handbrake Except the parking pawl isn't meant to take the strain or make up for the lack of a handbrake. I know most owners never use them, but it doesn't meant they shouldn't be use.
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Last Edit: Feb 7, 2019 4:58:47 GMT by ChasR
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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We already have that on certain trailers, and most american caravans. Not the brightest of ideas if you ask me. I've been in a couple early demonstrators of vehicles with the technology, it can work but has a long way to go Can't say I'm entirely sold on the idea of purely electric brakes either but it seems to be the way the industry is heading Don't the Alfa Guilias have electric brakes? As for the brakes, they can't be any worse than LHM brakes. On my 2CV it's all or nothing ; you can modulate them, but it requires precision. The DS is more of the same, being powered brakes. They don't work at all if the engine dies (that's the DS).
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Last Edit: Feb 7, 2019 5:01:27 GMT by ChasR
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I've been in a couple early demonstrators of vehicles with the technology, it can work but has a long way to go Can't say I'm entirely sold on the idea of purely electric brakes either but it seems to be the way the industry is heading Don't the Alfa Guilias have electric brakes? As for the brakes, they can't be any worse than LHM brakes. On my 2CV it's all or nothing ; you can modulate them, but it requires precision. The DS is more of the same, being powered brakes. They don't work at all if the engine dies (that's the DS). The alfa's brakes are a copy of what Merc did back in 2000, and the idea was binned as being curse word back then. They are not electric as such, the driver still pushes the hydraulic master cylinder as normal. The electric part is a computer decides how fast and how hard you pushed the brakes, then attempts to speed up the process. No vehicle can have full electric brakes as it would fail an MOT, the DS system is ok because they are still hydraulic and work with the engine pump running to give pressure. HGV air brakes are similar in the that the engine must be running to maintain air pressure. I've not tried a DS without the engine running but I imagine your glad of a mechanical handbrake in that situation.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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Don't the Alfa Guilias have electric brakes? As for the brakes, they can't be any worse than LHM brakes. On my 2CV it's all or nothing ; you can modulate them, but it requires precision. The DS is more of the same, being powered brakes. They don't work at all if the engine dies (that's the DS). The alfa's brakes are a copy of what Merc did back in 2000, and the idea was binned as being curse word back then. They are not electric as such, the driver still pushes the hydraulic master cylinder as normal. The electric part is a computer decides how fast and how hard you pushed the brakes, then attempts to speed up the process. No vehicle can have full electric brakes as it would fail an MOT, the DS system is ok because they are still hydraulic and work with the engine pump running to give pressure. HGV air brakes are similar in the that the engine must be running to maintain air pressure. I've not tried a DS without the engine running but I imagine your glad of a mechanical handbrake in that situation. The handbrake on a HGV with air brakes has nothing to do with air per se, in that the handbrake is spring operated. All the air does is hold the brake off, so it is ‘fail safe’. You have no air, i.e pipe bursts, engine fails, compressor fails whatever, handbrake comes on not the other way round
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The alfa's brakes are a copy of what Merc did back in 2000, and the idea was binned as being curse word back then. They are not electric as such, the driver still pushes the hydraulic master cylinder as normal. The electric part is a computer decides how fast and how hard you pushed the brakes, then attempts to speed up the process. No vehicle can have full electric brakes as it would fail an MOT, the DS system is ok because they are still hydraulic and work with the engine pump running to give pressure. HGV air brakes are similar in the that the engine must be running to maintain air pressure. I've not tried a DS without the engine running but I imagine your glad of a mechanical handbrake in that situation. The handbrake on a HGV with air brakes has nothing to do with air per se, in that the handbrake is spring operated. All the air does is hold the brake off, so it is ‘fail safe’. You have no air, i.e pipe bursts, engine fails, compressor fails whatever, handbrake comes on not the other way round I know, I wasn't talking about how they operate. I was referring to the different types of brakes and how they comply with the MOT. Ie- the reason why full electric brakes are not allowed (except trailers under 3.5gw), but the Citroen system is. I just used the fact that the engine must be running on an air braked vehicle to undertake the MOT brake test, same as the Citroen (and some other vehicles that use a similar system) must have the engine running when testing the brakes or it fails the MOT. Full electric brakes are not allowed because there is no mechanical connection between driver and wheels to fail safe, therefore will fail an MOT.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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My sister has a ford, c-max I think, and hers does this really disconcerting thing of rolling a tiny bit as you go to get out even though the electronic handbrake is on. The car probably only moves half an inch, but it’s just enough to make you think ‘oh curse word’ before it stops. Ha, this reminds me of my wife's Skoda yeti, although it's not handbrake related at all so I probably shouldn't post it here. But it has some kind of fly by wire accelerator pedal middle-management situation. If I'm at a roundabout or I need to pull out of a junction I press the go pedal and nothing happens for a terrifying amount of time. Literally nothing. It doesn't build revs or anything, you just press it and wait, and then the car will eventually creep slowly forwards. I'm used to my old car that will move forwards instantly at a speed determined by how much I'm pressing the pedal, so I can drive into gaps in the traffic and know it's all fine. The Yeti, well it needs a massive gap simply because of the huge amount of lag and the highly controlled initial start. By which time I'm screaming because the lorry that was 1/2 a mile away when I pressed the pedal is now moments from slamming into my door. So then it suddenly decides to accept my heavy foot and it screams up to 5000rpm and shoots off. Usually at the point where I have the front wheels turned in and I'm in the most unstable position for hard acceleration. The other thing it does is when you put it in reverse, it doesn't move at all, it just sits there. I can lightly press the pedal but it wont respond. It only responds with a firm press and with a firm press it does the same trick but in reverse. It seems to have two reverse speeds... 0mph and 50mph. So if you ever find yourself thinking Yeti owners are all old farts who make the road dangerous by driving overly cautiously... forgive them. It's not the driver it's the car. (Putting the autobox into 'sport' mode doesn't help either, I've tried) Anyway, off-topic... back to handbrakes. =)
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,856
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Don't the Alfa Guilias have electric brakes? As for the brakes, they can't be any worse than LHM brakes. On my 2CV it's all or nothing ; you can modulate them, but it requires precision. The DS is more of the same, being powered brakes. They don't work at all if the engine dies (that's the DS). The alfa's brakes are a copy of what Merc did back in 2000, and the idea was binned as being curse word back then. They are not electric as such, the driver still pushes the hydraulic master cylinder as normal. The electric part is a computer decides how fast and how hard you pushed the brakes, then attempts to speed up the process. No vehicle can have full electric brakes as it would fail an MOT, the DS system is ok because they are still hydraulic and work with the engine pump running to give pressure. HGV air brakes are similar in the that the engine must be running to maintain air pressure. I've not tried a DS without the engine running but I imagine your glad of a mechanical handbrake in that situation. I'm not immediately familiar with the Giulia but I believe it is some form of Bosch ibooster or ipb, which is a relatively new technology that decouples the brake pedal from the system, it is a form of brake by wire system in that the pedal isn't directly linked to the master cylinder except in the emergency failsafe back up. The computer takes the brake input and actuates the master cylinder output as required, these sort of systems are needed for self driving cars and hybrid/electric vehicles I can say that all electric brakes are being worked on and will likely come eventually, legislation and the MOT can change...
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skinnylew
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,546
Club RR Member Number: 11
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My sister has a ford, c-max I think, and hers does this really disconcerting thing of rolling a tiny bit as you go to get out even though the electronic handbrake is on. The car probably only moves half an inch, but it’s just enough to make you think ‘oh curse word’ before it stops. Ha, this reminds me of my wife's Skoda yeti, although it's not handbrake related at all so I probably shouldn't post it here. But it has some kind of fly by wire accelerator pedal middle-management situation. If I'm at a roundabout or I need to pull out of a junction I press the go pedal and nothing happens for a terrifying amount of time. Literally nothing. It doesn't build revs or anything, you just press it and wait, and then the car will eventually creep slowly forwards. I'm used to my old car that will move forwards instantly at a speed determined by how much I'm pressing the pedal, so I can drive into gaps in the traffic and know it's all fine. The Yeti, well it needs a massive gap simply because of the huge amount of lag and the highly controlled initial start. By which time I'm screaming because the lorry that was 1/2 a mile away when I pressed the pedal is now moments from slamming into my door. So then it suddenly decides to accept my heavy foot and it screams up to 5000rpm and shoots off. Usually at the point where I have the front wheels turned in and I'm in the most unstable position for hard acceleration. The other thing it does is when you put it in reverse, it doesn't move at all, it just sits there. I can lightly press the pedal but it wont respond. It only responds with a firm press and with a firm press it does the same trick but in reverse. It seems to have two reverse speeds... 0mph and 50mph. So if you ever find yourself thinking Yeti owners are all old farts who make the road dangerous by driving overly cautiously... forgive them. It's not the driver it's the car. (Putting the autobox into 'sport' mode doesn't help either, I've tried) Anyway, off-topic... back to handbrakes. =) Ahhh that explains a couple of near misses on motorway slip roads on the A1 got to be a fault surely....... Back to EPB's is it just a myth or is there truth to them taking fingers off when the pads are being replaced. I think the story i heard was someone was changing the rear pads (think it was a Renault MPV) with the drivers door open, it somehow shut and that activated the EPB automatically and nipped the mechanics fingertips off. Personally i couldn't get on with the blasted thing on my Dads Peugeot 308, never seemed to release when i wanted or come on when i wanted either!!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Ha, this reminds me of my wife's Skoda yeti, although it's not handbrake related at all so I probably shouldn't post it here. But it has some kind of fly by wire accelerator pedal middle-management situation. If I'm at a roundabout or I need to pull out of a junction I press the go pedal and nothing happens for a terrifying amount of time. Literally nothing. It doesn't build revs or anything, you just press it and wait, and then the car will eventually creep slowly forwards. I'm used to my old car that will move forwards instantly at a speed determined by how much I'm pressing the pedal, so I can drive into gaps in the traffic and know it's all fine. The Yeti, well it needs a massive gap simply because of the huge amount of lag and the highly controlled initial start. By which time I'm screaming because the lorry that was 1/2 a mile away when I pressed the pedal is now moments from slamming into my door. So then it suddenly decides to accept my heavy foot and it screams up to 5000rpm and shoots off. Usually at the point where I have the front wheels turned in and I'm in the most unstable position for hard acceleration. The other thing it does is when you put it in reverse, it doesn't move at all, it just sits there. I can lightly press the pedal but it wont respond. It only responds with a firm press and with a firm press it does the same trick but in reverse. It seems to have two reverse speeds... 0mph and 50mph. So if you ever find yourself thinking Yeti owners are all old farts who make the road dangerous by driving overly cautiously... forgive them. It's not the driver it's the car. (Putting the autobox into 'sport' mode doesn't help either, I've tried) Anyway, off-topic... back to handbrakes. =) Ahhh that explains a couple of near misses on motorway slip roads on the A1 got to be a fault surely....... Back to EPB's is it just a myth or is there truth to them taking fingers off when the pads are being replaced. I think the story i heard was someone was changing the rear pads (think it was a Renault MPV) with the drivers door open, it somehow shut and that activated the EPB automatically and nipped the mechanics fingertips off. Personally i couldn't get on with the blasted thing on my Dads Peugeot 308, never seemed to release when i wanted or come on when i wanted either!! It depends on how people work with them I suspect. I've personally not seen a Renault do that, and I used to drive an Espace daily with an EPB. That's not to say they can't. The VAGs for example require you to hook up to VCDS to cycle the handbrake mechanism so that isi adjusted correctly. However, many mechanics I know don't want to either splash out on the software, or not use it when they have it, as it also requires the car to be on a bettery tender. As a result, people change the pads by removing the motors once the handbrake is released, winding the calipers back and then putting the motors back on. It's funny, as B6s are known for chewing calipers. Is that down to a design flaw or down to people not changing the pads in the 'right' way. VW Beetle fanbelts are lethal, especially when setting up the carb and the ignition timing, especially when the bonnet of the said car won't stay up by itself. You don't hear of people moaning about them . But on the Drive-By-Wire Throttle convo, Not all cars with Drive By Wire throttles are bad . That's like me saying all British stuff is curse word (I've owned plenty before anyone chastises me fot the comment and I do miss some of them ). My M3 is OK with one. In Comfort mode it's fine as a daily. In Sport, it's a bit crazy in town as I'm sure pauly22 can justify ; I can map the throttle quite easily to be different but TBH it's a nice compromise. Not all cars are the same . My Merc, by comparison on a wired throttle, has a bit of an initial dead spot on the throttle from rest. Fine once you are used to it, but it's a strange to get used to. 944s suffer from it too, unless you change the throttle cam for a 'performance' item. A W124 250D Auto with a cable throttle would probably be worse than the Yeti . I believe some people called them dangerous (the gearbox took an age to change and any little power the 250D had got was compromised. I've had cables stick before on throttles which also gets interesting . I'm not a "modern person is best" but all things are relative IME.
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Last Edit: Feb 7, 2019 16:50:19 GMT by ChasR
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Ahhh that explains a couple of near misses on motorway slip roads on the A1 got to be a fault surely....... Back to EPB's is it just a myth or is there truth to them taking fingers off when the pads are being replaced. I think the story i heard was someone was changing the rear pads (think it was a Renault MPV) with the drivers door open, it somehow shut and that activated the EPB automatically and nipped the mechanics fingertips off. Personally i couldn't get on with the blasted thing on my Dads Peugeot 308, never seemed to release when i wanted or come on when i wanted either!! It depends on how people work with them I suspect. I've personally not seen a Renault do that, and I used to drive an Espace daily with an EPB. That's not to say they can't. The VAGs for example require you to hook up to VCDS to cycle the handbrake mechanism so that isi adjusted correctly. However, many mechanics I know don't want to either splash out on the software, or not use it when they have it, as it also requires the car to be on a bettery tender. As a result, people change the pads by removing the motors once the handbrake is released, winding the calipers back and then putting the motors back on. It's funny, as B6s are known for chewing calipers. Is that down to a design flaw or down to people not changing the pads in the 'right' way. VW Beetle fanbelts are lethal, especially when setting up the carb and the ignition timing, especially when the bonnet of the said car won't stay up by itself. You don't hear of people moaning about them . But on the Drive-By-Wire Throttle convo, Not all cars with Drive By Wire throttles are bad . That's like me saying all British stuff is curse word (I've owned plenty before anyone chastises me fot the comment and I do miss some of them ). My M3 is OK with one. In Comfort mode it's fine as a daily. In Sport, it's a bit crazy in town as I'm sure pauly22 can justify ; I can map the throttle quite easily to be different but TBH it's a nice compromise. Not all cars are the same . My Merc, by comparison on a wired throttle, has a bit of an initial dead spot on the throttle from rest. Fine once you are used to it, but it's a strange to get used to. 944s suffer from it too, unless you change the throttle cam for a 'performance' item. A W124 250D Auto with a cable throttle would probably be worse than the Yeti . I believe some people called them dangerous (the gearbox took an age to change and any little power the 250D had got was compromised. I've had cables stick before on throttles which also gets interesting . I'm not a "modern person is best" but all things are relative IME. Sport mode in the m3. Basically means you press the pedal 2mm and it’s on the Rev limiter and you end up either stalling or burning off everyone at the lights. Never use it.
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1994 BMW 525i touring 2004 BMW Z4 sorn and broken 1977 Ford Escort 1982 Ford Capri getting restored 1999 Mazda B2500 daily driver.
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Had 2 Skoda Yeti DSG's and now have a Karoq with the DSG gearbox, the only time I encounter throttle lag on take off is if I have forgotten to switch off the stop start system. The DSG is used to my driving, when I first get a new car it can be a bit hesitant, but the stop start is lethal in it's delay getting out at fast moving roundabouts and junctions. I switch it off every time the car is driven, it can be overridden permanently but I don't want to invalidate my warranty. The automatic handbrake system can be a pain in any manouvre which requires short shunts, tight parking, snow etc, it can lurch. It is best turned off and the handbrake button used as required in these situations. I regard my modern cars a domestic "white" goods, soulless and too clever by far. Don't get me started on the collision avoidance and smart cruise control.........
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74 Mk1 Escort 1360, 1971 Vauxhall Victor SL2000 Estate.
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Is the Collison avoidance anything like the incredibly nervous active braking fitted to new sprinters? A car matching my speed pulled into the fast lane 300 yards ahead the other day and the van dam near threw me through the windscreen pulling off it's own emergency stop, bloody terrifying
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Is the Collison avoidance anything like the incredibly nervous active braking fitted to new sprinters? A car matching my speed pulled into the fast lane 300 yards ahead the other day and the van dam near threw me through the windscreen pulling off it's own emergency stop, bloody terrifying It caught me out when a car coming towards me pulled into the CROWN of the road to turn right, it banged the brakes on then released them just as fast, I felt like I'd been humped by a kangaroo with premature ejaculation.
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74 Mk1 Escort 1360, 1971 Vauxhall Victor SL2000 Estate.
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